The false doctrines of the Preterist and Futurist interpretation

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Davy

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You claim we don't believe or study God word. You speak of signs etc, but ignore the details of prophecy. Daniel 7 speaks of the little horn that would grow from the head of the 4th beast. The 4th beast is the empire which followed immediately after Geeece. What was that power Davy?

Oh, I'm not the one denying what The Bible says as written. The "little horn" of Daniel 8 is about the Antichrist coming at the end of this world...

Dan 8:23-26
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
KJV



That is also the "vile person" of Daniel 11 that will place the "abomination of desolation" at the new temple the unbelieving Jews in today's nation of Israel are getting ready to build. That is why Jesus in His Olivet discourse quoted that from the Book of Daniel in relation to the SIGNS of the very end He was giving. Antiochus only served as an ensample, and was already dead when Lord Jesus warned about the future "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 11:31.
 

Trekson

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Here is from Wikipedia and it is pretty straightforward:

"One of the most influential aspects of the early Protestant historicist paradigm was the assertion that scriptural identifiers of the Antichrist were matched only by the institution of the Papacy. Particular significance and concern were the Papal claims of authority over the Church through Apostolic Succession, and the State through the Divine Right of Kings. When the Papacy aspires to exercise authority beyond its religious realm into civil affairs, on account of the Papal claim to be the Vicar of Christ, then the institution was fulfilling the more perilous biblical indicators of the Antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view into the Smalcald Articles of 1537; this view was not novel and had been leveled at various popes throughout the centuries, even by Roman Catholic saints.[2] It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons, drama, books, and broadside publication.[3] The alternate methods of prophetic interpretation, Futurism and Preterism were derived from Jesuit writings, whose counter-reformation efforts were aimed at opposing this interpretation[4][5][6][7] that the Antichrist was the Papacy or the power of the Roman Catholic Church.[8]"

The Protestant Reformers, including John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin,, John Knox, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, Jonathan Edwards, and John Wesley etc.., as well as most Protestants believers, felt that the Early Church of Christ and the Apostles, had been led into the Great Apostasy by the Papacy and identified the Pope with the Antichrist. The Centuriators of Magdeburg, a group of Lutheran scholars in Magdeburg headed by Matthias Flacius, wrote the 12-volume Magdeburg Centuries to discredit the Catholic Church and lead other Christians to recognize the Pope as the Antichrist. So, rather than expecting a single Antichrist to rule the earth during a future Tribulation period, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Protestant Reformers saw the Antichrist as a present feature in the world of their time, fulfilled in the Papacy.

Now in order to counter this view that the papacy was the Antichrist power it the church turned to the Jesuits who were summoned to pus back the reformers' teachings, and here two Jesuit scholars stand out in particular. They are Ribera and Alcasar, and they developed the Futurist and Preterist systems of prophetic interpretation.

Spanish Jesuit Francisco Ribera published a commentary on the book of Revelation which proposed that the bulk of the prophecies would be fulfilled in a brief three-and-one-half-year period at the end of the Christian era. In that short space antichrist (a single individual, according to Ribera) would rebuild the Jerusalem Temple, deny Christ, abolish Christianity, be received by the Jews, pretend to be god, and conquer the world. Thus the Protestant contention that the apocalyptic symbols of antichrist denoted an apostate religious system was countered, and the focus of the prophecies was diverted from the present to the far distant future.

Spanish Jesuit, Luis de Alcazar also published a scholarly work on Revelation, to refute the Protestant Reformation on the Antichrist power. Alcazar's thesis, the opposite of Ribera's, was that all the prophecies of Revelation had been fulfilled in the past, that is, by the fifth and sixth centuries A.D., the early centuries of Christianity. He asserted that this prophetic book simply described a two-fold war by the church-its victory over the Jewish synagogue on the one hand (chaps. 1-11) and Roman paganism on the other (chaps. 12-19). Chapters 21, 22 Alcazar applied to the Roman Catholic Church as the New Jerusalem, glorious and triumphant. His writings were developed into a system of interpretation known as preterism.

Over time these specific systems of counter interpretations of the Antichrist spread and began to penetrate Protestant thought. Preterism was the first; it began to enter Protestantism in the late eighteenth century. Preterist interpretations of the prophecies have today become the standard view of liberal Protestantism.

The ideas of futurism, although refuted at first, eventually spread into Protestantism during the nineteenth century. So the Protestant denominations have picked up these counter reformation views set about to change the views of the papacy as the Antichrist power that was from the Reformers.

The false doctrine of Preterism and Futurism, as you can see, basically are to put aside the Reformers view of the Antichrist which was held by the main body of Protestants. Preterist interpretation puts all prophecy pertaining to the Antichrist into the past so it is long gone, and the Futurist interpretation puts them into the future so the papacy could claim it was not this power. It is a deception which has been picked up and spread through the churches which has become a stumbling block for many people as they are fed its lies by these false doctrines..
The bible has always been futurist from Genesis all the way through Revelation. One would think that after 1900 yrs. plus the recognition that the prophetic knowledge promised in Dan. 12 has increased to leave the foolishness of historicism behind and for those who actually seek to learn can find many spiritual truths the 1st century folks had no concept of. The early church in the 100's ad+ had no possible way of understanding prophecy because it wasn't written for them. They begin to make sense the closer we get to fulfillment. If one really thought about it what better way would satan have to ensnare the church of the future then convincing them all prophecy is over and there is nothing more to be expected. "That" would be teaching the spirit of anti-christ then to deny that he will come again as prophesied for the rapture/resurrection. The 2nd coming is for Israel.
 

Nancy

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Neither will happen globally. Something far worse than both is coming though, the MoB and whatever laws and rules the AC institutes. It won't be laws of Islam or Judaism.
We will see.
 

Trekson

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The OP ignores Historical Premillennialism. This position of the early church fathers had nothing to to with the Jesuits or RCC. It predates them all

What Is Historical Premillennialism?​


Premillennialism = the belief that Jesus will return before (pre-) the millennium — a 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth mentioned in Revelation 20.


Historical Premillennialism = the earlier, classic version of premillennial belief, held by many of the early Church Fathers, before more modern systems like Dispensational Premillennialism arose in the 19th century.




Core Beliefs​


  1. Christ will physically return to earth before the millennium.
  2. The Church goes through the tribulation (a time of suffering and persecution), rather than being raptured out of it.
  3. Satan is bound, and Christ reigns on earth for 1,000 years — a time of peace, righteousness, and justice.
  4. Believers are resurrected at Christ’s coming and reign with Him.
  5. After the millennium, Satan is released, there's a final rebellion, then the final judgment and the eternal state (new heaven and new earth).

️ Early Church Support​


Many early Church Fathers supported this view, including:


  • Papias
  • Irenaeus
  • Justin Martyr
  • Tertullian

They believed in a literal kingdom of Christ on earth, often centered in Jerusalem.

The Antichrist in Historical Premillennialism​

Who is the Antichrist?​

In Historical Premillennialism, the Antichrist is a real, future human figure — a powerful, charismatic, deceptive leader who rises before the second coming of Christ. He leads a rebellion against God, persecutes the Church, and is ultimately defeated by Jesus at His return.

This figure is often associated with:

  • “Man of lawlessness” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3–10
  • “Beast from the sea” – Revelation 13
  • “Little horn” – Daniel 7
  • “Antichrist” – 1 John 2:18, though John suggests multiple antichrists in a general sense too

Key Features of the Antichrist (in this view)​

  1. He arises during a time of global turmoil or moral collapse.
  2. Persecutes believers during a period of intense tribulation.
  3. Performs signs and wonders to deceive people (2 Thess. 2:9).
  4. Sets himself up as God in the Temple or in some form of blasphemous self-exaltation.
  5. Deceived nations into following him, leading to a global rebellion.
  6. Is ultimately destroyed by Christ at His second coming (2 Thess. 2:8 – “whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth”).
Dispensationalism has been around since Genesis if one understood what it really is and it is 'not" an eschatology in and of itself. However, from your opinion at what point does dispensationalism stray from historical pre-millenialism?
 

ewq1938

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Dispensationalism has been around since Genesis if one understood what it really is and it is 'not" an eschatology in and of itself. However, from your opinion at what point does dispensationalism stray from historical pre-millenialism?

The timing of the rapture. The rapture happens after the trib has ended, not before it has started. Pre-trib first started in Paul's day because he addressed it in one of his letters because another letter of his was misunderstood and thus was born that doctrine. It did not exist before that.
 

Trekson

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The timing of the rapture. The rapture happens after the trib has ended, not before it has started. Pre-trib first started in Paul's day because he addressed it in one of his letters because another letter of his was misunderstood and thus was born that doctrine. It did not exist before that.
Pretrib is not defined by dispensationalism, it's just an errant eschatology. That part is where Darby erred, but dispensationalism was around for millennia before that.
 

ewq1938

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Pretrib is not defined by dispensationalism, it's just an errant eschatology.


It's a core aspect of it. Another problem is that Israel and the church are not separate.
 

Trekson

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It's a core aspect of it. Another problem is that Israel and the church are not separate.
At this time, we are not but that will change. The church has an end date, Israel does not. The OT prophecies speak a lot about the restoration of Israel and that is what the 70th week is for. To get them to the place of national atonement. They've been enduring the ToJT for 1950 yrs. now and it will end in the context of the 70th week. Read Zech. 12:10+, that is national atonement which will result in Zech. 13:8-9 and Matt. 23:39. The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel!
 

ewq1938

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At this time, we are not but that will change. The church has an end date, Israel does not.

They are the same thing and there is no end date.


The OT prophecies speak a lot about the restoration of Israel and that is what the 70th week is for. To get them to the place of national atonement. They've been enduring the ToJT for 1950 yrs. now and it will end in the context of the 70th week. Read Zech. 12:10+, that is national atonement which will result in Zech. 13:8-9 and Matt. 23:39.

There is no national atonement for unbelievers. Only believers have atonement and they have it now.




The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel!

There is one coming, for the church who is Israel and it happens in this order: second coming, resurrection, rapture.
 

Trekson

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They are the same thing and there is no end date.




There is no national atonement for unbelievers. Only believers have atonement and they have it now.






There is one coming, for the church who is Israel and it happens in this order: second coming, resurrection, rapture.
Wow, I think way more studying is needed. Whoever taught you this stuff has led you way off course. Replacement theology is a false doctrine. Oh, everyone is an unbeliever until they atone. Atonement is part of the salvation process. Believers don't "get" atonement. Believers atone and then receive salvation.
 

ewq1938

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Wow, I think way more studying is needed. Whoever taught you this stuff has led you way off course. Replacement theology is a false doctrine.

Of course it is but neither I nor the bible promotes that. Israel began the NT church with 12 disciples, and eventually gentiles could be grafted into the church and faithless Israelites would be removed.


Oh, everyone is an unbeliever until they atone. Atonement is part of the salvation process. Believers don't "get" atonement. Believers atone and then receive salvation.

You are wrong. I'll repeat your words back to you, "Wow, I think way more studying is needed. Whoever taught you this stuff has led you way off course."

Rom_5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 

Trekson

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Of course it is but neither I nor the bible promotes that. Israel began the NT church with 12 disciples, and eventually gentiles could be grafted into the church and faithless Israelites would be removed.




You are wrong. I'll repeat your words back to you, "Wow, I think way more studying is needed. Whoever taught you this stuff has led you way off course."

Rom_5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
This is in the past tense, atonement is the past tense of having already atoned for our sins "before" salvation. The word atonement means "reconciliation" w/ God via receiving forgiveness for our sins which we had acknowledged to God. It could also be said that Christ was our atonement (expiation) satisfying the debt to God that we owed Him because of our sins because "without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins". The change from not in good standing w/ God, to being accepted by God.
 
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Davy

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Here is a pretty good rundown of the origin of the false Pre-trib Rapture Theory, written by a Mark Williams...

"How did the pretribulation doctrine come about? A brief rundown would go something like this:
In 1591 a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera wrote a 500-page commentary on the grand points of Babylon and the antichrist, the object being to set aside the Protestant teaching that the Papacy is the antichrist. In his commentary, he assigned the first chapters of Revelation to the first century. The rest he restricted to a literal three and a half years at the end of time, BEFORE the resurrection. He taught that the Jewish temple would be rebuilt by a single individual antichrist that would abolish the Christian religion, deny Christ, pretend to be God, and conquer the world. Thus was laid the foundation for Dispensationalism. In 1812 another Jesuit priest, named Emmanuel Lacunza, started
teaching that there would be a 45-day tribulation period, AFTER Christ’s coming. In 1826 Edward Irving translated Lacunza’s book and published it in 1827. Sometime after that, Irving started to teach a three-and-a-half-year tribulation after Christ’s coming. In 1830, a man named John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren started teaching a seven-year tribulation period. He came to America seven times to promote his teaching. When George Muller of Bristol came up against the Dispensationalist doctrines of the Brethren movement, he severed all connection with it. “The time came,” he said, “when I had to either part from my Bible or part from John Darby. I chose to keep my precious Bible.”
So in 1812, we see the teaching of a 45-day tribulation after the rapture. Around 1827 Edward Irving taught a three and a-half-year tribulation after the rapture. Then in 1830, the final turn to a seven-year tribulation after the rapture. Others picked up on this new doctrine and added to it. In 1909, C. I. Scofield published the Scofield Reference Bible. His dispensational notes were mixed in with the verses of the Bible so well that if you didn’t know better, you would think they were part of the Holy Scriptures. Over two million copies of his Bible were sold with this new dispensational teaching. Scofield, although not a Plymouth Brethren, was a devoted disciple of John Darby. After that, W. E. Blackstone wrote a book titled Jesus Is Coming Again. A millionaire financed sending several hundred thousand copies of this book to missionaries throughout the world.
After Israel became a nation in 1948, prophecy teachers sprung up like wildfire, teaching that the Second Coming would happen approximately forty years after Israel became a nation. They got this belief from misinterpreting the word “generation” in Matthew 24. Hundreds of books were written on this subject. People learned about this new doctrine, not from the Bible, but from these so-called prophecy books. Today Dispensationalism has become the generally accepted belief of the Fundamentalist wing of popular Protestantism. In his tract, “Who is the Antichrist?” a former Catholic priest, Joseph Zacchello, says: “The Jesuits were the first ones to introduce a new theory in order to divert men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the antichrist in the papal church. The Jesuit Ribera brought out the futuristic system, which asserts that the antichrist is yet to appear.” And to this statement, he adds: “Protestants who advocate the futuristic system are pleasing the pope and are playing into the hands of Rome.” The teaching that the Church is to be raptured to heaven just prior to a time called the great tribulation was not known prior to the 1800s. It’s amazing with all the writings left to us from early Christians on the rapture, all agreed that if there is going to be a tribulation at the end of time, the Church would go through it. Since no voice spoke out in favor of a pre-tribulation rapture, the only conclusion possible is that the Church did not teach this in the beginning and that it should not be teaching it now."

Short, concise, to the point.

But points many brethren are not... considering:

1. Bible prophecy indeed does... point to a final Antichrist figure that is to appear in Jerusalem at the end of this world, and place an abomination idol at a new stone temple there. And that is to happen prior to Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church.

2. Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church will happen AFTER the great tribulation He warned about (Matt.24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

3. The Daniel 9:27 prophecy does... involve a final 70th symbolic "one week" (7 years) at the end of this world. The previous symbolic 69 weeks of the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy were completed at the cross, leaving only the final 70th week for the end of this world.

That symbolic "one week" is divided up into two 1260 day periods each. In the middle of that week the "abomination of desolation" Jesus warned about is to be setup at a stone temple in Jerusalem. The latter 1260 day half of that week represents the "great tribulation" timing.

4. The papacy is not the Antichrist that will be setup in a Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world. Following the actual written Word of God on this reveals the final Antichrist to appear in Jerusalem for the end will be a SUPERNATURAL FALSE-MESSIAH PLAYING CHRIST, with the power to work great signs, wonders, and call fire down from heaven in the sight of men. No pope has that kind of power, and Judaism is not going to recognize a Christian pope as their Messiah which the Jews are still waiting for to come. Thus the whole rage of the idea of a pope as the Antichrist of The Bible is an OXYMORON IDEA.

5. The Reformation era Protestants were called Protestants by the Catholic Church because they 'protested' against the Catholic Church, separating themselves from Rome and the papacy. The Catholic Church, which was used to using a military army for its ventures began literally attacking and persecuting the Protestants. Thus the Protestants began claiming the pope was the Antichrist, and they actually expected Jesus' coming in their day, because the Antichrist is specifically associated with the generation of Christ's future return, as written in God's Word.

One group of my ancestors came to the American colony of Virginia in the 1600's, having fled the persecutions by the Catholic Church upon French Protestants. They were Huguenots, the first French Protestants. So with my family history, I have all the more reason to hate the Catholic Church and a pope. But I don't. It is because I know God's Hand was behind the Protestant rebellion so His people would be established beyond the reaches of the Catholic system, which had been pretty well taken over by crept in unawares with many false traditions of men.

6. There is no reason today for pushing Reformation era ideology in the Church, since what the 16th century Reformers believed about a pope being the Antichrist, and their persecutions being about the END, did not pan out in their era, and Jesus did not return as they were expecting in their era. Yet there exists today 'certain factions' that keep pushing those Reformation era doctrines, and the false Jews are among them taking advantage of it, since they are always interested in anything that divides Christians.

7. Thus the doctrine of men called Futurism is mainly associated with the Pre-trib Rapture theory, which is a false theory. But in reality, Futurism has the same 'design' of deception that Preterism causes. And that is to get the Christian away from looking at Jerusalem for the end time events of Bible prophecy as is actually written, and instead push one's view of prophecy fulfillment in the PAST. I know, how can Futurism be about the Past like Preterism is? Simple, by trying to get the Christian to realize that Futurism is only an attempt to get one to agree with the JESUITS in a counter-Reformation strategy, since they supposedly created it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Here is a pretty good rundown of the origin of the false Pre-trib Rapture Theory, written by a Mark Williams...

"How did the pretribulation doctrine come about? A brief rundown would go something like this:
In 1591 a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera wrote a 500-page commentary on the grand points of Babylon and the antichrist, the object being to set aside the Protestant teaching that the Papacy is the antichrist. In his commentary, he assigned the first chapters of Revelation to the first century. The rest he restricted to a literal three and a half years at the end of time, BEFORE the resurrection. He taught that the Jewish temple would be rebuilt by a single individual antichrist that would abolish the Christian religion, deny Christ, pretend to be God, and conquer the world. Thus was laid the foundation for Dispensationalism. In 1812 another Jesuit priest, named Emmanuel Lacunza, started
teaching that there would be a 45-day tribulation period, AFTER Christ’s coming. In 1826 Edward Irving translated Lacunza’s book and published it in 1827. Sometime after that, Irving started to teach a three-and-a-half-year tribulation after Christ’s coming. In 1830, a man named John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren started teaching a seven-year tribulation period. He came to America seven times to promote his teaching. When George Muller of Bristol came up against the Dispensationalist doctrines of the Brethren movement, he severed all connection with it. “The time came,” he said, “when I had to either part from my Bible or part from John Darby. I chose to keep my precious Bible.”
So in 1812, we see the teaching of a 45-day tribulation after the rapture. Around 1827 Edward Irving taught a three and a-half-year tribulation after the rapture. Then in 1830, the final turn to a seven-year tribulation after the rapture. Others picked up on this new doctrine and added to it. In 1909, C. I. Scofield published the Scofield Reference Bible. His dispensational notes were mixed in with the verses of the Bible so well that if you didn’t know better, you would think they were part of the Holy Scriptures. Over two million copies of his Bible were sold with this new dispensational teaching. Scofield, although not a Plymouth Brethren, was a devoted disciple of John Darby. After that, W. E. Blackstone wrote a book titled Jesus Is Coming Again. A millionaire financed sending several hundred thousand copies of this book to missionaries throughout the world.
After Israel became a nation in 1948, prophecy teachers sprung up like wildfire, teaching that the Second Coming would happen approximately forty years after Israel became a nation. They got this belief from misinterpreting the word “generation” in Matthew 24. Hundreds of books were written on this subject. People learned about this new doctrine, not from the Bible, but from these so-called prophecy books. Today Dispensationalism has become the generally accepted belief of the Fundamentalist wing of popular Protestantism. In his tract, “Who is the Antichrist?” a former Catholic priest, Joseph Zacchello, says: “The Jesuits were the first ones to introduce a new theory in order to divert men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the antichrist in the papal church. The Jesuit Ribera brought out the futuristic system, which asserts that the antichrist is yet to appear.” And to this statement, he adds: “Protestants who advocate the futuristic system are pleasing the pope and are playing into the hands of Rome.” The teaching that the Church is to be raptured to heaven just prior to a time called the great tribulation was not known prior to the 1800s. It’s amazing with all the writings left to us from early Christians on the rapture, all agreed that if there is going to be a tribulation at the end of time, the Church would go through it. Since no voice spoke out in favor of a pre-tribulation rapture, the only conclusion possible is that the Church did not teach this in the beginning and that it should not be teaching it now."

Short, concise, to the point.

But points many brethren are not... considering:

1. Bible prophecy indeed does... point to a final Antichrist figure that is to appear in Jerusalem at the end of this world, and place an abomination idol at a new stone temple there. And that is to happen prior to Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church.

2. Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church will happen AFTER the great tribulation He warned about (Matt.24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

3. The Daniel 9:27 prophecy does... involve a final 70th symbolic "one week" (7 years) at the end of this world. The previous symbolic 69 weeks of the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy were completed at the cross, leaving only the final 70th week for the end of this world.

That symbolic "one week" is divided up into two 1260 day periods each. In the middle of that week the "abomination of desolation" Jesus warned about is to be setup at a stone temple in Jerusalem. The latter 1260 day half of that week represents the "great tribulation" timing.

4. The papacy is not the Antichrist that will be setup in a Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world. Following the actual written Word of God on this reveals the final Antichrist to appear in Jerusalem for the end will be a SUPERNATURAL FALSE-MESSIAH PLAYING CHRIST, with the power to work great signs, wonders, and call fire down from heaven in the sight of men. No pope has that kind of power, and Judaism is not going to recognize a Christian pope as their Messiah which the Jews are still waiting for to come. Thus the whole rage of the idea of a pope as the Antichrist of The Bible is an OXYMORON IDEA.

5. The Reformation era Protestants were called Protestants by the Catholic Church because they 'protested' against the Catholic Church, separating themselves from Rome and the papacy. The Catholic Church, which was used to using a military army for its ventures began literally attacking and persecuting the Protestants. Thus the Protestants began claiming the pope was the Antichrist, and they actually expected Jesus' coming in their day, because the Antichrist is specifically associated with the generation of Christ's future return, as written in God's Word.

One group of my ancestors came to the American colony of Virginia in the 1600's, having fled the persecutions by the Catholic Church upon French Protestants. They were Huguenots, the first French Protestants. So with my family history, I have all the more reason to hate the Catholic Church and a pope. But I don't. It is because I know God's Hand was behind the Protestant rebellion so His people would be established beyond the reaches of the Catholic system, which had been pretty well taken over by crept in unawares with many false traditions of men.

6. There is no reason today for pushing Reformation era ideology in the Church, since what the 16th century Reformers believed about a pope being the Antichrist, and their persecutions being about the END, did not pan out in their era, and Jesus did not return as they were expecting in their era. Yet there exists today 'certain factions' that keep pushing those Reformation era doctrines, and the false Jews are among them taking advantage of it, since they are always interested in anything that divides Christians.

7. Thus the doctrine of men called Futurism is mainly associated with the Pre-trib Rapture theory, which is a false theory. But in reality, Futurism has the same 'design' of deception that Preterism causes. And that is to get the Christian away from looking at Jerusalem for the end time events of Bible prophecy as is actually written, and instead push one's view of prophecy fulfillment in the PAST. I know, how can Futurism be about the Past like Preterism is? Simple, by trying to get the Christian to realize that Futurism is only an attempt to get one to agree with the JESUITS in a counter-Reformation strategy, since they supposedly created it.
It's so funny to see you criticize Futurism (rightly so) while at the same time believing in things that are promoted by Futurism, such as the idea of a future individual Antichrist and a future physical temple in Jerusalem where the abomination of desolation would supposedly take place. A temple that could not possibly be God's temple in any way, shape or form, yet you claim it is the same temple of God that Paul references in 2 Thessalonians 2:4. So, you can criticize Futurism all you want, but the fact is that you do buy into some of what Futurism is selling.
 

Davy

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It's so funny to see you criticize Futurism (rightly so) while at the same time believing in things that are promoted by Futurism, such as the idea of a future individual Antichrist and a future physical temple in Jerusalem where the abomination of desolation would supposedly take place. ....

There it is folks! Spiritual Israelite just revealed his little sneaky association with false Jews who want us Christians to think the end time prophecies given in God's written Word are all past history, which is what Preterism is designed to make one think.

Spiritual Israelite admits Futurism is... pointing to end time Bible prophecy, and that is why he says Futurism is false. What do you think brethren? Do believe the "great tribulation" and God's "two witnesses" appearing in Jerusalem at the END of this world like is actually WRITTEN in Bible Scripture is still yet to come to pass?

If you believe what Spiritual Israelite's association with the false Jews believes, then you will... be DECEIVED by the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ which Jesus warned about that is coming at the very end of this world in the generation that will actually SEE His future coming.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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There it is folks! Spiritual Israelite just revealed his little sneaky association with false Jews who want us Christians to think the end time prophecies given in God's written Word are all past history, which is what Preterism is designed to make one think.
False accusations only make you look foolish. Nowhere have I said that all end time prophecies have been fulfilled. Your slander just reveals how evil you are. You need to repent of your wicked lies.

Spiritual Israelite admits Futurism is... pointing to end time Bible prophecy, and that is why he says Futurism is false.
You also said Futurism is false. LOL! You are hilarious. It depends on how you define Futurism. Certainly, the Futurism of dispensationalism is false. I never said that all prophecies are fulfilled, so I'm not defining Futurism as the believe that prophecies will be fulfilled in the future. Obviously, some will. But, you lack the discernment to understand that Daniel 9:24-27 has been fufilled.

What do you think brethren? Do believe the "great tribulation" and God's "two witnesses" appearing in Jerusalem at the END of this world like is actually WRITTEN in Bible Scripture is still yet to come to pass?

If you believe what Spiritual Israelite's association with the false Jews believes, then you will... be DECEIVED by the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ which Jesus warned about that is coming at the very end of this world in the generation that will actually SEE His future coming.
No one takes you seriously. When will you ever realize that? All I said is that you believe some of the things that the ones you criticized promote. That is a fact. And then you respond by acting like a fool with this nonsense.
 

Jay Ross

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But, you lack the discernment to understand that Daniel 9:24-27 has been fulfilled.

Not so fast friend. Daniel 7:24-26a has been fulfilled, but Daniel 9:26b still has another 20 or so years before the war in Heaven is over and Daniel 9:27 still has another 1,040 or so years before it will be fulfilled when Satan, the one who make desolate, will be dispatched into the Lake of fire.

Shalom



PS: - Davy when he talks about the generation that will see the fulfilment of Dan 9:27, he is talking about a latter-day descendant generation that will be alive at the end of the seventh generation/age. Now he too has holes in his understanding, just like everybody else has on this forum. Few of us understand the complete picture of the Latter-days at the end of the Seventh Age, after which the GWTR judgement will take place.

We all need God's Grace to be more loving in our interactions.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Not so fast friend. Daniel 7:24-26a has been fulfilled, but Daniel 9:26b still has another 20 or so years before the war in Heaven is over and Daniel 9:27 still has another 1,040 or so years before it will be fulfilled when Satan, the one who make desolate, will be dispatched into the Lake of fire.

Shalom



PS: - Davy when he talks about the generation that will see the fulfilment of Dan 9:27, he is talking about a latter-day descendant generation that will be alive at the end of the seventh generation/age. Now he too has holes in his understanding, just like everybody else has on this forum. Few of us understand the complete picture of the Latter-days at the end of the Seventh Age, after which the GWTR judgement will take place.
You just make claims with nothing to back them up. Do you imagine that anyone should take you seriously when that is the case? You don't exegete any scripture or do anything to back up your claims. You just make claims and think that's enough. That doesn't cut it.

We all need God's Grace to be more loving in our interactions.
I'm not going to pretend I love blatant false teaching, which there is a lot of on this forum. If you are going to make claims about what is taught in scripture, then you need to be prepared to back them up with solid exegesis. But, that is never the case with you.
 

Jay Ross

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You just make claims with nothing to back them up. Do you imagine that anyone should take you seriously when that is the case? You don't exegete any scripture or do anything to back up your claims. You just make claims and think that's enough. That doesn't cut it.


I'm not going to pretend I love blatant false teaching, which there is a lot of on this forum. If you are going to make claims about what is taught in scripture, then you need to be prepared to back them up with solid exegesis. But, that is never the case with you.

Daniel 9:24-27
Fulfilled Prophecies at this present time.

First Prophecy[1]

24 "Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sinning.

Second Prophecy[2]

{And then after the 70 weeks of years Christ comes,}[3]
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint a sacred place {as being} Holy.

Third Prophecy[4]

25 "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Fourth Prophecy[5]

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;



Prophecies not yet completed or fulfilled.

Fifth Prophecy[6]

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Sixth Prophecy[7]

27 Then he, {Who is insolent} shall confirm a {solemn} covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolator."​

The above is my understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 documented with footnotes for others to read. If I am in error, then God will be my judge.

Shalom


[1] This prophecy must be completed by Daniel’s people and the city of Jerusalem within a window of grace of 490 years, before the end of the fourth Age, after which the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers will be visited upon their children and the children’s children in the third and fourth age.

[2] The second half of verse 24 specifies what Christ is required to do to bring a new form/process for the redemption of Israel and all of the peoples of the earth.

[3] This line has been added for clarity as to when the means of redemption was going to take place. Because Israel would not repent or stop their continual idolatrous worship, the Exodus 20:4-6 prophecy of the visitation of the father’s sins of their continual idolatrous worship on their children and the children’s children would begin at the start of the third age of the existence of Israel from the time of Isaac’s birth and would continue for a period of two ages.
It should be noted that the birth of Christ occurred at the beginning of the fifth age of mankind which also coincided with the beginning of the third age of the existence of Israel from the time of Isaac’s birth.

[4] Verse 25 speaks of the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem until the Messiah comes to fulfil verse 24b

[5] This prophecy tells us when Christ will fulfil the second prophecy in verse 24b will happen.

[6] Verse 26b speaks of the destruction of the city and its sanctuary which will last until the end of the trampling of God’s Sanctuary and His earthly hosts at the completion of the decreed 2,300 years. At this time the visitation of the Father’s iniquities upon their children and the children’s children will also end. Verse 26b has a time span of around 2,000 or so years and ends when Isaiah 24:21-22 is fulfilled and the Judged heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth are imprisoned.

[7] Verse 27 prophecy possibly points to either the Little Horn/False Prophet or to Satan as entering into a solemn covenant during the Little While Period which is eventually broken by Satan.​
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Daniel 9:24-27
Fulfilled Prophecies at this present time.

First Prophecy[1]

24 "Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sinning.

Second Prophecy[2]

{And then after the 70 weeks of years Christ comes,}[3]
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint a sacred place {as being} Holy.
Why are you dividing that up into two prophecies? There is no indication whatsoever of that being the case. All of those things were to be fulfilled within the determined 70 weeks. You are twisting the text to fit your beliefs. Why do so many people do that on this forum? How can you be comfortable with yourself while blatantly butchering God's word like this?

Third Prophecy[4]

25 "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Fourth Prophecy[5]

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;



Prophecies not yet completed or fulfilled.

Fifth Prophecy[6]

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Sixth Prophecy[7]

27 Then he, {Who is insolent} shall confirm a {solemn} covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolator."​

The above is my understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 documented with footnotes for others to read. If I am in error, then God will be my judge.
You are definitely in error. You are dividing up the prophecy into six prophecies for no good reason at all. Yes, there are different aspects to the prophecy, but it's not six different prophecies. And the way you divide up the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 is particularly ridiculous.

Shalom


[1] This prophecy must be completed by Daniel’s people and the city of Jerusalem within a window of grace of 490 years, before the end of the fourth Age, after which the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers will be visited upon their children and the children’s children in the third and fourth age.​
How can Daniel's people accomplish the things listed there that only Jesus could accomplish? If people can accomplish those things, then what did Jesus die for?


[2] The second half of verse 24 specifies what Christ is required to do to bring a new form/process for the redemption of Israel and all of the peoples of the earth.​
What are you talking about? What is this based on?