When Might Satan With His Angels Come to This Earth For the Tribulation?

[William Barton]

What then is Abraham’s bosom? Why was it not God’s bosom?

To whom was that parable given? Jesus was teaching his disciples, all of whom were Jewish.

Verses just before Jesus uttered it, gave us a clue about who he was talking about with that parable of the rich man and Lazarus..

He said…”Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.” (Luke 16:14-15 NASB)

So Jesus used a “rich man” as part of his illustration. He used a beggar by contrast to picture the spiritually impoverished “lost sheep” to whom he was sent….these barely got crumbs falling from the rich man’s table.
Both died and changed places…..the rich man lost his place, and the beggar attained, it in “Abraham’s bosom”. Since the Jews had no belief in an immortal soul, those in “hades” (the grave) were not literally alive, but symbolically and spiritually dead and finding themselves in altered circumstances. “Gnashing of their teeth” followed their fall from God’s favour.

[quote@William Barton]"Bosom" is Greek πολκοις = "upper part of chest." Figuratively it can indicate "inner circle, place of honor and safety." (Oxford Greek Dictionary).

Yes, the “bosom” position was one of favor, as those reclining at a meal, only one could occupy the “bosom” position of the host. The apostle John usually reclined there, as a close associate of his Master….one he was especially fond of.

The fact that it was Abraham’s bosom and not God’s, revealed that it was the Jewish Pharisees that he was alluding to….sons of Abraham…..holding the favored position in the nation, but they lost it when they rejected their Messiah. The beggar gained it by accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Abraham did not have a hope of going to heaven.....God’s early servants did not have any beliefs about heaven and hell...only life and death...and those concepts were biblical...but immortal souls and strange destinations for them did not originate from among God’s people....or from Scripture.....they are entirely pagan adoptions.

Hebrews 11 is a glowing commendation of all those faithful ones of old who died without receiving the fulfilment of the promises that knew were sure to come about....on earth.
It concludes by saying.....
“And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40 ESV)
So those of God’s faithful ancient servants were not going to see the promises fulfilled before the ones who died after Christ opened the way to heaven....that was only for the elect. No one who died before Jesus, receives a heavenly reward, as only those taken into the new covenant can go there as “kings and priests” ruling in his kingdom. (Rev 20:6) These are the one who experience “the first resurrection”.

The ancient ones will come back to life on earth when Jesus calls all the dead from their graves. (John 5:28-29) Reinstating his first purpose for the human race was always on God’s agenda.....they will all receive everlasting life in paradise on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Nonsense. Jesus did not present it as a parable. Parables do not contain names of real people and places like Luke 16:19-31 does. Jesus presented the rich man as being in torment in Hades. Why would He do that if that is not how things are in reality? Do you think He was trying to confuse people for no apparent reason? Of course He wasn't. He portrayed people as being conscious after physical death because people are conscious after physical death. Even if it was a parable why would Jesus present such a scenario as dead people being conscious if it didn't represent reality? Jesus would not do that.

This is a parable like all the other parables that it accompanies. Just because Jesus used a very common name for the beggar doesn’t make it literal.

If it was literal, please explain how heaven and hell are in speaking distance to one another? Can conversation between them take place? Hades is not Gehenna, it is the grave, which means that both died and received a symbolic burial. There is more than one way to die as Scripture points out. The spiritually dead are still physically alive and can be in torment, just as the Pharisees were in a knot over Jesus exposing them as hypocritical frauds. They orchestrated his murder and subsequently lost their place.

The beggar was also spiritually dead but through no fault on his part.....by accepting Jesus as their Redeemer, they swapped places with the rich man and came to life.....receiving the former place of favour with God, (the postman of Abraham) so, as sons of Abraham, they had first option for places in the Kingdom, but rejected the one sent to save them because he didn’t fit their corrupted expectations.

Can a literal drop of water on a man’s finger cool his tongue in a raging fire? This is no literal story, but very meaningful when understood as part of Jesus’ parables.

The Jews were never taught about immortality of the soul because a soul cannot exist without a body. The soul is the living, breathing creature, both animal and human.

What did Solomon write?
Eccl 3:18-20...
“I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, [spirit]and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.” (ESV)

He also wrote....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.” (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10 ESV)

Those in “Sheol” are not conscious....and Sheol is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek “hades”.....translated in the Jewish Tanakh as “the grave”. Every human who has ever lived went to Sheol/hades when they died.

This is what God told Adam right at the beginning....that he would die and return to the dust......no “heaven or hell”....no continuation of life after death....no places for the dead to go.....just life or death.

Humans are created as mortal beings.....which didn’t mean that they had to die, as there was no natural cause of death for mankind, they would continue to live, unless they disobeyed their Creator. Death was a punishment, not an expectation.....so sin is what brought death. Immortality of the soul in all its expressions is a satanic lie.....based on the very first lie that the devil told the woman in Eden. “You surely will not die”....

Have you swallowed a very ancient lie? The apostate Jews surrendered to it...and so has Christendom.
But there is no such thing as an immortal soul in any passage of Scripture. If you can find a single verse where the words “immortal soul” are found, please provide it.
But remember that the “soul” and the “spirit” are two entirely different words in both Hebrew and Greek ...and have very different meanings, so we cannot conflate them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is a parable like all the other parables that it accompanies. Just because Jesus used a very common name for the beggar doesn’t make it literal.

LOL. Please be serious. Show me any other parable where Jesus called a made up person by name. You can't do it. Because that's not what Jesus did in His parables. Jesus also mentioned Abraham and Moses by name in that passage. Do you also think He was not talking about the literal Abraham and literal Moses who are written about in the Bible?

If it was literal, please explain how heaven and hell are in speaking distance to one another?

I'm not saying that every word in the passage is meant to be taken literally. Heaven and hell are in the unseen (to us) spirit realm which is not something we can currently comprehend. So, Jesus described them in a way that people can understand. That doesn't mean that heaven, or the place that Jesus called "Abraham's bosom", and hell don't exist. He portrayed them as being real places with dead believers being in one place and dead unbelievers being in another place. And He portrayed them as being conscious. Why would He do that if they are not actually conscious? No, Jesus would not mislead people like that.

Can conversation between them take place?

I wouldn't think so under normal circumstances, but Jesus could have supernaturally made it so that Abraham and Lazarus could communicate with the rich man in this case.

Hades is not Gehenna, it is the grave, which means that both died and received a symbolic burial.

Hades is not the grave. Do you think people's souls are in graves?

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, (Hades) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Do you think Jesus was saying that the gates of the graves will not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:18)?

There is more than one way to die as Scripture points out.

Sure, but Luke 16:19-31 is clearly referring to people who are physically dead. That's why Jesus talks about the rich man asking for his five brothers, who were still alive, to be warned about not suffering the same fate as him when they die.

The spiritually dead are still physically alive and can be in torment, just as the Pharisees were in a knot over Jesus exposing them as hypocritical frauds. They orchestrated his murder and subsequently lost their place.

Jesus is not talking about people who are spiritually dead in Luke 16:19-31. If that was the case, then the rich man could have gone and warned his five brothers himself about avoiding the torment he was experiencing instead of him asking Abraham to do so. You are clearly going out of your way to deny what Jesus indicated in that passage.

Can a literal drop of water on a man’s finger cool his tongue in a raging fire? This is no literal story, but very meaningful when understood as part of Jesus’ parables.

Jesus described things related to the unseen spiritual realm figuratively because it's not something we can currently understand if He tried to describe it literally. But, He portrayed physically dead people as being conscious, regardless of describing the rich man's torment figuratively. He would not have done that if physically dead people are not actually conscious.

The Jews were never taught about immortality of the soul because a soul cannot exist without a body.

Where does scripture teach that a soul cannot exist without a body? I don't care what the Jews, who were wrong about a lot of things, thought. Why did Paul say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8), if the soul cannot exist without a body? Why did John say that he saw the souls of physically dead believers while describing them as being conscious in Revelation 6:9-11, if a soul cannot exist without a body? You have to ignore a great deal of scripture to deny that people still have consciousness after they die physically. Your cherry picking method of interpreting scripture is unacceptable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He also wrote....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.” (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10 ESV)

This is the go to passage for those who believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep. But, those who believe in that false doctrine do not look at the context of that passage carefully at all. The context of the passage is in relation to when people are alive on the earth "under the sun". What they no longer know or experience after the physically die is anything that they did or experienced while they were physically alive "under the sun". It doesn't say that they literally don't know anything after they physically die. What they no longer know or experience is "their love and their hate and their envy" that they experienced while alive and they no longer know or experience "all that is done under the sun". That does not mean they know nothing where their souls and spirits go after they are no longer living on earth "under the sun".

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm not saying that every word in the passage is meant to be taken literally.

Moving the goalposts won’t score you any points here.....Jesus spoke in parables for a reason.....what reason did he give? He used real literal things and people to picture spiritual things so that some, but not all, would understand his meaning. He did this deliberately.

To keep unworthy ones in a state of spiritual darkness Jesus spoke to the people in parables or illustrations, as he told his followers when they asked why he used illustrations: “This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment which says: ‘By hearing, you will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, you will look but by no means see.”

Heaven and hell are in the unseen (to us) spirit realm which is not something we can currently comprehend.

Nonsense....heaven is the abode of the Creator as Jesus said...”Our Father who art in heaven”....it is a realm unseen to human eyes, but his prophets were given glimpses into that realm through visions. Ezekiel was one who found it hard to describe in words we would understand, the things revealed to him in those visions.

“Hell” is a horribly mistranslated word and the meaning is totally lost on those who believe the devil’s first lie....we really do die, just as God told Adam.....a return to the dust is all that was mentioned.

Is “hades” the same as “Gehenna”? And how did the Jews understand the difference?
Hades has a “get out of jail free” card. (Rev 20:13-14) Those in hades are released, and both death and hades are then hurled into the lake of fire...never to be seen again.
The lake of fire is “Gehenna”....”the second death”....a place from which nothing returns...but is destroyed forever.

What did Jesus say?...

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 NASB)

I wouldn't think so under normal circumstances, but Jesus could have supernaturally made it so that Abraham and Lazarus could communicate with the rich man in this case.

This is an assumption on your part....where does the Bible say that heaven and hell can communicate with each other?

Hades is not the grave. Do you think people's souls are in graves?

I think you first have to know what a “soul” is according to Scripture, not theology.
The words “soul” and “spirit” mean two entirely different things. The soul is a living breathing creature, not a disembodied spirit. The soul dies with the body. (Ezekiel 18:4) Souls are mortal.
Adam “became” a “soul” when God imparted the “breath (spirit) of life to him. The spirit is what animates a soul....which cannot exist without a body because breathing requires lungs. Do spirits have lungs?

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, (Hades) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The word “soul” is synonymous with life because that is what a soul is.....a living creature...even animals are called “souls” and as Solomon wrote, we have no superiority over them in death.

This prophesy about Jesus meant that God was not going to allow his dead body to decompose in the grave. After 3 days decomposition sets in....and if you remember Lazarus’ sister stating that Lazarus, who had been dead for four days, would be smelly by then. The smell of death is unlike any other. Yet it did not prevent Jesus from raising him out of his tomb. Where was Lazarus before Jesus resurrected him? If he had gone to a better place, why did Jesus bring him back?

Do you think Jesus was saying that the gates of the graves will not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:18)?

The “gates of hades” here means that death can not disrupt the work of salvation....not his death, nor the death of the apostles would stop what he started....and here we are and the work is almost complete.

Jesus described things related to the unseen spiritual realm figuratively because it's not something we can currently understand if He tried to describe it literally. But, He portrayed physically dead people as being conscious, regardless of describing the rich man's torment figuratively. He would not have done that if physically dead people are not actually conscious.

He portrayed those physically alive as dead people.....because they are dead to God....a soul cannot think or plan anything once death has overtaken them....their emotions are part of their human consciousness....and these also cease at death (Eccl 9:5, 10)....you have to be alive to suffer torment....the physically dead are not alive......the spiritually dead are, and can experience torments.

Where does scripture teach that a soul cannot exist without a body?

Look up the definition of a “soul”....the Hebrew word is “neʹphesh” and the Greek word is “psy·kheʹ”.
And see how these words are translated in other passages....

“Soul” is another word for “life”......it is never a disembodied spirit.

Leviticus 17:10-13 states concerning God’ law on the consumption of blood....
‘And any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’ Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘No person among you may eat blood, nor may any alien who sojourns among you eat blood.’ So when any man from the sons of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, in hunting catches a beast or a bird which may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth.” (NASB)

Look carefully at the translation and see that the same word is rendered both “life” and “soul”. They mean the same thing. The soul is not a conscious entity unless it is breathing. “Lives” can be represented as “souls”.

I don't care what the Jews, who were wrong about a lot of things, thought.

They did...but their Scripture didn’t......Jesus and his apostles often quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures. (2 Tim 3:16-17)

Why did Paul say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8), if the soul cannot exist without a body? Why did John say that he saw the souls of physically dead believers while describing them as being conscious in Revelation 6:9-11, if a soul cannot exist without a body?

Being one of God’s elect, Paul knew that physical death for them meant a spiritual resurrection, like Jesus had. In order to go to heaven to be with their Lord, they had to surrender the flesh in order to obtain the spirit body needed to dwell in the presence of God. No physical body can do that.

The souls mentioned in Revelation are the lives lost in martyrdom, crying out to God for justice......it is coming...

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is the go to passage for those who believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep. But, those who believe in that false doctrine do not look at the context of that passage carefully at all. The context of the passage is in relation to when people are alive on the earth "under the sun". What they no longer know or experience after the physically die is anything that they did or experienced while they were physically alive "under the sun". It doesn't say that they literally don't know anything after they physically die. What they no longer know or experience is "their love and their hate and their envy" that they experienced while alive and they no longer know or experience "all that is done under the sun". That does not mean they know nothing where their souls and spirits go after they are no longer living on earth "under the sun".

Paul acknowledges that the dead sleep.....

“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thess 4: 13-17 NASB)

That is very clear to me....follow the timeline....the dead do not rise until Christ’s return.....he raises the elect first.

 

[NayborBear]

When that Revelation 12:7-8 Scripture says no more place 'in heaven' will be found for Satan and his angels after that war in heaven, it means exactly that. During this present world time Satan is allowed to roam up and down, and in the earth, like he answered God in the Book of Job when God asked him what he'd been up to. And Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 5:8 warned us that Satan still roams about today like a lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Zechariah 1:
7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

Don't forget about these ones'!
They did back in the day?
And, they still do!

 

[Davy]

Zechariah 1:
7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

Don't forget about these ones'!
They did back in the day?
And, they still do!

And the "four carpenters" (KJV)? What do they do?

 

[NayborBear]

And the "four carpenters" (KJV)? What do they do?

The very next verse tells the reader/s what it is they do.*
*Although the word usage and "terminology" seems very (how can I say) foreign? To the "people of that time?" They pretty much knew what Zechariah was talking about.

And? Should one continue reading (ch.2, such as it is "labelled"), the reader may (or may not) come to realize that this vision of Zechariah is just the continuation of the same vision which may "seem" to end in ch. 4:7. But it doesn't.
And it may seem again to the reader/s that Zechariah's vision ends in ch. 6:9....But this 1 vision doesn't end until verse 14.

So it was like 2 years between Zechariah's "first visionary Prophetic encounter" with the Lord of Hosts, and a more of an accusatory lamenting (encounter) FROM the Lord of Hosts to Zechariah. And this "Oral Prophesying" from the Lord of Hosts continues on until ch. 9:14, when the Lord of Hosts mentions LORD GOD aka "He who reigns from Everlasting TO Everlasting." Through "EVERY Slice of Eternity!" so to speak. Or? Heaven and earth AGES!

All the facets of the "Government" of the "Spirit of GOD" are borne upon the Shoulder OF His Christ. Whose (future coming) was ALSO spoken to Zechariah!

We (all believers) ARE granted access TO FATHER "Yah'-uh-'Vay" in and THROUGH, or BY Jesus Christ of Nazareth WHEN?:
1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, TO OFFER UP SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES ACCEPTABLE TO God by Jesus Christ.

 

[William Barton]

This is a parable like all the other parables that it accompanies. Just because Jesus used a very common name for the beggar doesn’t make it literal.

If it was literal, please explain how heaven and hell are in speaking distance to one another? Can conversation between them take place? Hades is not Gehenna, it is the grave, which means that both died and received a symbolic burial. There is more than one way to die as Scripture points out. The spiritually dead are still physically alive and can be in torment, just as the Pharisees were in a knot over Jesus exposing them as hypocritical frauds. They orchestrated his murder and subsequently lost their place.

The beggar was also spiritually dead but through no fault on his part.....by accepting Jesus as their Redeemer, they swapped places with the rich man and came to life.....receiving the former place of favour with God, (the postman of Abraham) so, as sons of Abraham, they had first option for places in the Kingdom, but rejected the one sent to save them because he didn’t fit their corrupted expectations.

Can a literal drop of water on a man’s finger cool his tongue in a raging fire? This is no literal story, but very meaningful when understood as part of Jesus’ parables.

The Jews were never taught about immortality of the soul because a soul cannot exist without a body. The soul is the living, breathing creature, both animal and human.

What did Solomon write?
Eccl 3:18-20...
“I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, [spirit]and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.” (ESV)

He also wrote....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.” (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10 ESV)

Those in “Sheol” are not conscious....and Sheol is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek “hades”.....translated in the Jewish Tanakh as “the grave”. Every human who has ever lived went to Sheol/hades when they died.

This is what God told Adam right at the beginning....that he would die and return to the dust......no “heaven or hell”....no continuation of life after death....no places for the dead to go.....just life or death.

Humans are created as mortal beings.....which didn’t mean that they had to die, as there was no natural cause of death for mankind, they would continue to live, unless they disobeyed their Creator. Death was a punishment, not an expectation.....so sin is what brought death. Immortality of the soul in all its expressions is a satanic lie.....based on the very first lie that the devil told the woman in Eden. “You surely will not die”....

Have you swallowed a very ancient lie? The apostate Jews surrendered to it...and so has Christendom.
But there is no such thing as an immortal soul in any passage of Scripture. If you can find a single verse where the words “immortal soul” are found, please provide it.
But remember that the “soul” and the “spirit” are two entirely different words in both Hebrew and Greek ...and have very different meanings, so we cannot conflate them.

Aunty Jane noted:
>No such thing as immortal soul>

"Soul" = "Animate existence" (Oxford English Dictionary).
By contrast, a rock is inanimate.

"Immortal" = "Not mortal."

"Mortal" stems from Latin mors = "death."

And the "four carpenters" (KJV)? What do they do?

Zechariah 1:20-21, חרשים (carpenters / craftsmen). Craftsmen often first tear down what was damaged before they can build.

These craftsmen apparently come to tear down. It's a metaphor. Bad news for the godless people there, who have made a mess of things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Moving the goalposts won’t score you any points here..

Grow up. I never said that every word in the passage was literal. What do you think, that if any word in a passage quoting Jesus is not literal then that means it's a parable? Of course not. So, don't give me nonsense like this if you want to be taken seriously.

...Jesus spoke in parables for a reason.....what reason did he give? He used real literal things and people to picture spiritual things so that some, but not all, would understand his meaning. He did this deliberately.

He never used the names of real people and places in His parables. Why do you just ignore that? Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable no matter how much you want it to be.

But, let's say it was a parable for the sake of argument. When you say He used real literal things and people to picture spiritual things in His parables, does that mean you acknowledge that Abraham's bosom and hell/Hades were real places? If so, why would you not acknowledge that the rich man and Lazarus were real people just like the other people mentioned in the passage like Abraham and Moses? Whether it's a parable or not, Jesus portrayed dead people as having consciousness. That's undeniable. Why would He do that in any way, shape or form if those who are physically dead do not actually have consciousness? Do you think Jesus was trying to confuse people by portraying physically dead people as being conscious? That's not something Jesus would do. He would only portray things as they really are. So, Jesus clearly indicated that those who are physically dead are conscious, regardless of whether Luke 16:19-31 is a parable or not.

Nonsense..

LOL! Any time you think something I say is nonsense only proves all the more that I must be right. That's how wrong you are most of the time. Your arguments are extremely weak.

..heaven is the abode of the Creator as Jesus said...”Our Father who art in heaven”....it is a realm unseen to human eyes, but his prophets were given glimpses into that realm through visions. Ezekiel was one who found it hard to describe in words we would understand, the things revealed to him in those visions.

“Hell” is a horribly mistranslated word and the meaning is totally lost on those who believe the devil’s first lie....we really do die, just as God told Adam.....a return to the dust is all that was mentioned.

Is “hades” the same as “Gehenna”? And how did the Jews understand the difference?
Hades has a “get out of jail free” card. (Rev 20:13-14) Those in hades are released, and both death and hades are then hurled into the lake of fire...never to be seen again.
The lake of fire is “Gehenna”....”the second death”....a place from which nothing returns...but is destroyed forever.

What did Jesus say?...

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16 NASB)

What a load of nonsense. You clearly do not know what words mean. The words death and perish do not imply no consciousness or annihilation. You are sadly mistaken. Those who are not saved are said to be dead in their sins (Ephesians 2:1-6). Does that mean they have no consciousness or don't exist? Obviously not. It means they are separated from God because of their sins. Death is separation, not annihilation. Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). So, the separation of the soul and spirit from the body when someone physically dies results in their souls and spirits being with the Lord in heaven.

This is an assumption on your part....where does the Bible say that heaven and hell can communicate with each other?

Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? I said that is normally not the case, but Jesus could have made an exception in that case in order to illustrate the difference between someone being in heaven and being in hell. Why would he portray Abraham and Lazarus as talking to the rich man if that didn't actually happen? You must think Jesus was trying to confuse people. I don't believe that Abraham's bosom is the same as paradise/the third heaven, so I'm not sure if people in Abraham's bosom could communicate with those in hell/Hades at that time. I believe that the souls and spirits of those who were in Abraham's bosom at that time were brought to the third heaven/ paradise after Jesus died.

I think you first have to know what a “soul” is according to Scripture, not theology.

I think you have to understand that the word "soul" doesn't have only one definition. How can you not know that? The word can refer to a living person, but also can refer to the part of a person called the soul. Paul made it clear that people are made up of body, soul and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The words “soul” and “spirit” mean two entirely different things. The soul is a living breathing creature, not a disembodied spirit. The soul dies with the body. (Ezekiel 18:4) Souls are mortal.

Again, you show your ignorance. How can you not be aware that words can have more than one meaning? I think I learned that in first or second grade. The part of us that is our soul is apparently practically inseparable, according to this verse...

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Marilyn C]

Nonsense. Jesus did not present it as a parable. Parables do not contain names of real people and places like Luke 16:19-31 does. Jesus presented the rich man as being in torment in Hades. Why would He do that if that is not how things are in reality? Do you think He was trying to confuse people for no apparent reason? Of course He wasn't. He portrayed people as being conscious after physical death because people are conscious after physical death. Even if it was a parable why would Jesus present such a scenario as dead people being conscious if it didn't represent reality? Jesus would not do that.

So people in hell still have physical bodies - the desire for water, eyes to see and a mouth to speak? (Luke 16: 23 & 24)

 

[Aunty Jane]

He never used the names of real people and places in His parables. Why do you just ignore that? Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable no matter how much you want it to be.

He did in this one....it is part of many parables if you check the context.
You have to understand what it meant to Jews, not how those verses are interpreted in Christendom’s theology.
The rich man represented the Pharisees...the beggar represented “the lost sheep”...it’s not hard to see the illustration as he presented it in the hearing of the Pharisees, whom he said in the previous verses, were lovers of money....the people were illustrative....the deaths were illustrative and the destinations of both parties was illustrative. That’s what parables are.....illustrations are using what people know to illustrate what they have yet to learn.

But, let's say it was a parable for the sake of argument. When you say He used real literal things and people to picture spiritual things in His parables, does that mean you acknowledge that Abraham's bosom and hell/Hades were real places?

It’s what “Abraham’s bosom” represented to a Jew, and what they understood “hades” to mean. There was no “heaven or hell” scenario ever mentioned in Jewish Scripture....and Jesus was sent exclusively to the Jews.....all his apostles were Jewish, not shackled by Christendom’s errors.

If so, why would you not acknowledge that the rich man and Lazarus were real people just like the other people mentioned in the passage like Abraham and Moses? Whether it's a parable or not, Jesus portrayed dead people as having consciousness.

It’s who they were representatively.....you just don’t get it, do you? The illustration works from a Jewish perspective...not from the perspective of those raised in an apostate church system....far removed from first century teachings and hanging onto immortal souls that don’t exist in Scripture.

Jesus clearly indicated that those who are physically dead are conscious, regardless of whether Luke 16:19-31 is a parable or not.

No, he did not...why would he contradict Solomon? Were not both guided by Holy Spirit?
There are no immortal souls in Christ’s teachings.....why would there be? It was the pagan nations who believed in spirits leaving the body at death.....the “spirit” in man is the animating force in his body created by the lungs delivering oxygen to every cell....without breath, the body is dead....the soul (person) dies too. We are the souls.....it does not exist apart from us. Souls are not immortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The words death and perish do not imply no consciousness or annihilation.

Where did God tell Adam he would go when he died? Heaven or hell? Or were his only options life or death?

Where did Jesus say Lazarus was before he resurrected him? (John 11:11-14) Any mention of him being anywhere else but in his tomb, “sleeping”?

Does that mean they have no consciousness or don't exist?

If we are in God’s memory, we are never forgotten. Why does there have to be consciousness after death....where in the Bible does it say we all go to somewhere in a conscious state of existence? Sheol/hades is the grave. We all go to the same place when we die.

Obviously not. It means they are separated from God because of their sins. Death is separation, not annihilation.

Death is not just a separation from God...it is a separation from life, fulfilling what God told Adam.....that he would simply return to the dust from which he was created.
In the resurrection Jesus calls all the dead from their graves (John 5:28-29).....God recreates us and gives us back our soul or life, with all our memories and personality. The dead are all in the same place....it’s just that some will not be granted a resurrection....deemed unworthy of such by their choices, beliefs and lifestyle.

Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). So, the separation of the soul and spirit from the body when someone physically dies results in their souls and spirits being with the Lord in heaven.

Paul was one of the elect, like all the Christian Bible writers were....their hope was heaven, and they were looking forward to being with their King Jesus Christ as part of the Kingdom that will rule redeemed mankind here on earth. I am very happy to be one of their subjects as it will be the restoration of what God first purposed for humankind on this earth. (Rev 21:2-5)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus could have made an exception in that case in order to illustrate the difference between someone being in heaven and being in hell.

“Could have”? Jesus “could have” done a lot of things, but he didn’t.

What do you imagine heaven and hell are like? What is the purpose of them that is in line with our creation here on the earth? Is this just some sort of training ground?

And why would God sentence the wicked to an eternity of torture for a short lifetime of sin, that wasn’t even their fault in the first place. Where is the justice in your beliefs in a punishment that is not even biblical?

Why would he portray Abraham and Lazarus as talking to the rich man if that didn't actually happen?

You still don’t get ‘representation’, do you? It is who Abraham and Lazarus represent that tells the story.

You must think Jesus was trying to confuse people.

He doesn’t confuse anyone who knows their Bible....those who bother to study it instead of just taking church theology as gospel. None of Christendom’s doctrines are true...Jesus foretold the apostasy and it was already beginning before the death of his apostles......imagine how long the same lies have been told and believed!

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe that the souls and spirits of those who were in Abraham's bosom at that time were brought to the third heaven/ paradise after Jesus died.

You can believe whatever you like....it doesnt make it true....what is true, is what God makes known to those he “draws” to that truth. (John 6:44)
No one can come to the Father apart from Jesus Christ....but no one can come to the Son unless it is granted by the Father (John 6:65)......where does that leave all of us?

Paul answers....in 2 Thess 2...
“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him. . . .Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. . . . Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.” (NASB)

Do the deluded know that they are? Not until the judgment.....too late then to change your mind. (Matt 7:21-23)

I think you have to understand that the word "soul" doesn't have only one definition. How can you not know that? The word can refer to a living person, but also can refer to the part of a person called the soul.

Yes, a “soul” is the living breathing creature...human or animal. The word is synonymous with life. A living soul is breathing...a dead soul is not.

Paul made it clear that people are made up of body, soul and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And if you knew your Bible, you would see that this verse, so often used to promote humans as triune beings like they believe God is....but that isn’t what it means at all. This is addressed to the whole congregation, not to individuals within it. The “whole spirit, soul and body” is the entire congregation where those things mean something entirely different to how you have been taught to read that verse, out of context.

The part of us that is our soul is apparently practically inseparable, according to this verse...

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The dividing of soul and spirit is the difference between God granting us everlasting life or everlasting death. The word of God has that effect on us....it brings out the thoughts and intentions of the heart....these are what God reads....the inner person is revealed and that is who is judged......it’s not about who we think we are or what label we wear, or how convinced we are about our own opinion.....out destiny is determined by how God reads our heart.....and how well we follow his directions.

 

[William Barton]

The Bible says:

"The Lord will come suddenly to his temple" (Malachi 3:1).
No rebuilt temple, no return.

 

[Davy]

So people in hell still have physical bodies - the desire for water, eyes to see and a mouth to speak? (Luke 16: 23 & 24)

If you mean by the word 'physical' a flesh body, then no, spirits do not have flesh bodies.

Now if you have been listening to men's false traditions about soul sleep that claim the idea of 'spirits' mean demons, then that's just another one of their false primitive notions that goes directly against God's written Word...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Those are about those same "spirits in prison" that Peter mentioned in the previous 1 Peter 3:18-20 Scripture; not demons nor evil spirits, but the spirits of men that had died back to the flood of Noah.

Per Hebrews 4:12, God created each one of us with 3 parts; a spirit, a soul, and a flesh body. Our spirit is permanently linked with our soul, and both are of the Heavenly dimension of spirit. But our flesh body is a shell of material matter that houses our spirit and soul. Our spirit in the heavenly dimension is our IMAGE, a BODY type made up of spirit. Ecclesiastes 12 revealed a mystery of how our spirit/soul is connected to our flesh shell body. It involves an invisible "silver cord" mentioned there, that if severed at flesh death, each part goes back to its respective origins, our flesh back to the earth where it was taken from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it, and that means our spirit with soul retaining our individual person.

Many brethren simply do not stop and think about this, because the realm of Spirit always existed first with GOD Himself and the angels. And He gave proof of that early on in His Word of Genesis 1:26-27 when He created Adam. What was it that He said? "Let Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness." (Gen.1:26, KJV) Per Job 38:7, when God created the universe "... the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Before that only existed the realm of Spirit.

Thus I would mark those who keep pushing the lie that the word 'spirit' means something evil when Apostle John even said that "God is a Spirit" per John 4:24. I'd even be embarrassed to claim to know The Bible and speak against the idea of 'spirit' like it always means something evil.

Like Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

 

[William Barton]

Jesus will rule the earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years (Revelation 20:4).

Davy noted: "spirit."

The Oxford English Dictionary ("spirit") says "the animating or vital principle in man and animals which gives life to the organism."

The Bible speaks of body, soul, spirit (1Thessalonians 5:23).
"Soul"= intelligence
"Spirit"= communion with God

A plant has a body.
A cat has a body and soul.
A person has a body, soul, and spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So people in hell still have physical bodies - the desire for water, eyes to see and a mouth to speak? (Luke 16: 23 & 24)

Of course not. My point about Luke 16:19-31 is not that every word in it is literal. My point is that it's not a parable. Are you suggesting that any time Jesus used figurative language, that means it was a parable? That's not the case. Are you paying attention to what is actually being discussed here? I never said that everything He said in Luke 16:19-31 was literal. But, Abraham's bosom and hell/Hades were real places where the souls and spirits of physically dead people were held. The rich man and Lazarus were real people just as the other people mentioned in the passage are (Abraham and Moses). I am saying that Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable since Jesus did not mention real people and places in His parables. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He did in this one....

No, He did not. In His parables He always referenced made up people, places and events/concepts that represented real people, places and events/concepts. For example, in the parable of Matthew 22:1-13 he referenced a king arranging a marriage for his son and having his servants invite people to his son's wedding first starting locally and then going to the highways to invite more people. He wasn't talking about a literal king with servants who had a son who was going to be married in a literal wedding with the servants literally going out on the highways to invite people to the wedding. The king represents God the Father, the son represents Jesus, the king's servants represent Christians, the highways represent the Gentile nations, the wedding represents Jesus being together with all of His people when He returns and so on.

it is part of many parables if you check the context.

What does this mean? Show me any parable where Jesus referred to real people and places in the parable.

You have to understand what it meant to Jews, not how those verses are interpreted in Christendom’s theology.
The rich man represented the Pharisees...the beggar represented “the lost sheep”...it’s not hard to see the illustration as he presented it in the hearing of the Pharisees, whom he said in the previous verses, were lovers of money....the people were illustrative....the deaths were illustrative and the destinations of both parties was illustrative. That’s what parables are.....illustrations are using what people know to illustrate what they have yet to learn.

It’s what “Abraham’s bosom” represented to a Jew, and what they understood “hades” to mean. There was no “heaven or hell” scenario ever mentioned in Jewish Scripture....and Jesus was sent exclusively to the Jews.....all his apostles were Jewish, not shackled by Christendom’s errors.

This is complete nonsense. Jesus's parables are meant for all of His followers to learn from and understand, not just His Jewish followers. You are sadly mistaken.

No, he did not...why would he contradict Solomon?

He didn't. Your understanding of Ecclesiastes 9 is flawed. It's not talking about people literally knowing nothing after they die, it's talking about them no longer experiencing things "under the sun" during their lives on the earth.

Were not both guided by Holy Spirit?

Of course. So, why would you try to change what Jesus taught in favor of what you think Solomon taught?

There are no immortal souls in Christ’s teachings.....why would there be? It was the pagan nations who believed in spirits leaving the body at death.....the “spirit” in man is the animating force in his body created by the lungs delivering oxygen to every cell....without breath, the body is dead....the soul (person) dies too. We are the souls.....it does not exist apart from us. Souls are not immortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Where did God tell Adam he would go when he died? Heaven or hell? Or were his only options life or death?

Where did Jesus say Lazarus was before he resurrected him? (John 11:11-14) Any mention of him being anywhere else but in his tomb, “sleeping”?

If we are in God’s memory, we are never forgotten. Why does there have to be consciousness after death....where in the Bible does it say we all go to somewhere in a conscious state of existence? Sheol/hades is the grave. We all go to the same place when we die.

Hello? People are presented as being conscious after death several times in scripture. Are those all meant to confuse us? Did John see the souls of physically dead martyrs and indicate that they were conscious in an effort to confuse us and make us think that people have consciousness after physical death? Does it record Jesus talking to the physically dead Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration just as a joke to make us think that Moses and Elijah were actually conscious? Did Jesus say that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and is not the God of the dead, but of the living in order to indicate that God is not the God of those who are physically dead including Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Or was He indicating that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive spiritually despite being physically dead and God is still their God since He is not the God of the dead, but of the living? You are clearly not thinking all of this through carefully.

Paul was one of the elect, like all the Christian Bible writers were....their hope was heaven, and they were looking forward to being with their King Jesus Christ as part of the Kingdom that will rule redeemed mankind here on earth. I am very happy to be one of their subjects as it will be the restoration of what God first purposed for humankind on this earth. (Rev 21:2-5)

You ignore that Paul indicated that a believer goes to be present with the Lord when they physical die, which is what he meant when he said to be absent from the body (physically dead) is to be present with the Lord (spiritually in heaven) in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. He also wrote this...

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

If you took your doctrinal blinders off, you could easily see that Paul was torn between wanting to physically die so that he could then "be with Christ" which he said would be "far better" or "to live on in the flesh" which was "more needful" for the people who relied on him. Paul very clearly indicated that his expectation was that he would be with Christ immediately upon his physical death.