Reason for The Crusades explained

[Wrangler]

Obviously, these people would prefer Christianity went extinct in the 12th century.

You violent war mongering socalled "Christians" are no hair better than violent radical Muslims.

Evil. Standing up against evil. No difference in your mind. Wow.

 

[Wrangler]

One wonders how these people evangelize based on

Evangelize based what is necessary for the body as well as the spirit. Jesus drew people to him due to his soulful signs and wonders, tending to the needs of the body of believers.

 

[Matthias]

Evil. Standing up against evil. No difference in your mind. Wow.

The followers of Jesus should stand against evil in the same way that Jesus and the apostles stood against evil.

Follow their example. It isn’t evil. It’s what the church did prior to Constantine. (And some Christians did during and after those days - and were persecuted for it.)

 

[Justified]

Exodus 3:
19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.
1 Samuel 15:
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

SHHH!
Your Biblical ILLITERACY is showing! (as is also your temper!)

Were NOT the Tribes of Israel "believers" ALSO?
Well?.......Until the adversary caused them to UNDERMINE "Yah'-uh-"Vay's" SOVERIGNITY!
Hence the reason they were "Cut OFF!"
How sad a state it is when "High Minded" "Self Righteousness" UNDERMINES again The Father's SOVERIGNITY.....AND?????.......
WHEN "believers" FAIL to "learn" from HIStory?
HIStory REPEATS!

You’re taking Scripture out of context by failing to understand what applies to believers and what doesn’t, what was meant for a specific time and place and what isn’t. There is not a single command in Scripture for followers of Christ to kill a single enemy.

Try reading the NT and see what is required of Christ’s followers:

Mat 5:10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
…
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Luk 6:31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
Luk 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
Luk 6:33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
Luk 6:34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
...
Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
...
Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Rom 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1Co 4:12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;
1Co 4:13 when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.

2Co 12:10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

2Th 1:4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.

2Ti 3:11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me.

1Pe 3:9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Very importantly, we should consider Jesus's example:

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Act 8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth.

It's also worth pointing out that, following Christ's example, in the whole of the NT there is no example of believers ever fighting back, despite being persecuted by Jewish and Roman authorities.

Your position is completely unbiblical and anti-Christ.

In the N.T. however it is rendered something like THIS!:
2 Thessalonians 2:10-13
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ...

That is another misuse of Scripture that has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[Justified]

If you're referring to my "signature line?"
I DID "add" to it, my "commentary, or assessment", I guess you could call it, to how "corrupted, oppressive, bullying, and MANIPULATIVE" WHAT AND HOW "TODAY'S CHRISTIANITY".........HAS BECOME!
But "out of context?"
I DON'T believe so!

I’m not referring to your signature line, as I can’t see it; I’m responding to your post, HERE.

 

[Matthias]

“The Crusades: Holy War’s Unholy Reality

Nothing illustrates medieval Christianity’s contradictions better than the Crusades. Between 1095 and 1291, Western Christians launched multiple military campaigns to reclaim the Holy Land from Muslim control.

Why Crusade?

Pope Urban II launched the First Crusade in 1095 with multiple motivations:

Religious: Reclaim Jerusalem and help Eastern Christians
Political: Unite Europe under papal leadership
Social: Channel violent nobility toward external enemies
Spiritual: Offer salvation through holy war

…

The Crusades’ Dark Legacy

The First Crusade‘s conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 revealed holy war’s horrors. Crusaders slaughtered Muslims, Jews, and Eastern Christians indiscriminately. …

The Fourth Crusade (1202-1204) was worse. Diverted by Venetian merchants, Crusaders attacked Constantinople - the greatest Christian city. They looted churches, destroyed libraries, and installed a Latin patriarch. Orthodox Christians never forgave the betrayal. …”

Crusades and Medieval Christianity: Power, Corruption, and Reform (AD 1054-1300) — The Exalted Christ

Examine the Crusades, papal power at its peak, and early reform movements. Learn how medieval Christianity shaped modern church practices.

www.theexaltedchrist.com

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

This isn’t good. Defending it is worse. Your “cure” is worse than the disease.

Jesus, the apostles, and the earliest followers of Jesus (and many since) did not behave this way in response to their enemies.

“Unholy” is something never to be connected / associated with the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Justified]

Powerful denial there. Your idea is that they call it 2nd Death but they won't die. Wow!

This is not at all relevant to this discussion, but it is a legitimate biblical position.

You are wrong about a great many things. 1 Samuel 15:3

3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”​

What was that you were saying about Nowhere in Scripture, nowhere, are believers commanded to kill their enemies? Want to correct your assertions?

No. This is the same error I just addressed in post #2,224. You’re taking Scripture out of context by failing to understand what applies to believers and what doesn’t, what was meant for a specific time and place and what isn’t. There is not a single command in Scripture for followers of Christ to kill a single enemy.

Projecting your over-spiritualized false teachings of an IDOL of Jesus, who will kill more people than anyone else. I'd love hear your false teaching of the purpose of throwing people in the Lake of Fire and calling it 2nd Death if it leaves them alive? What Judgment is there then to Judgment Day?

No, you are a serious false teacher who even denies the deity of Jesus. If you want to start a discussion on the lake of fire, then do so, and we’ll discuss there.

What's absolutely wicked is turning a thread from the reasons FOR the Crusades to against.

Not at all. The wickedness you and others are promoting is killing in the name of Christ. That is unbiblical, anti-Christ, anti-gospel, and is taking God’s name in vain.

Fallacy of argumentation known as Appeal to Perfection.

You really shouldn’t make such claims when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Just don’t.
Nirvana Fallacy - Logically Fallacious

Jesus is sinless and perfect, and judged and will judge perfectly, within God’s timing. You nor I nor anyone else has that capacity and in the time we have been given, we are never commanded to kill out enemies; quite the opposite actually.

Yet, he put me (us) in a position to judge this life. 1 Corinthians 6:3

Once again, you completely ignore context and so come to a wrong conclusion about what 1 Cor. 6:3 is referring to:

1Co 6:1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?
1Co 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
1Co 6:4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church?
1Co 6:5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers,
1Co 6:6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?
1Co 6:7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?

Continue to ignore Jesus’s commands at your peril.

 

[Matthias]

They sure DIDN'T!

You’re right.

”You are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

That’s the teaching of @Wrangler and his concealed identity church. Think about it.

He truly believes that all of the followers of Jesus - which of course includes the apostles - were commanded by Jesus to carry swords and be ready to use them to kill their enemies.

You know and have acknowledged that (Jesus and) the apostles not only didn’t use the weapons of the world (“swords”), they didn’t kill their enemies. They suffered persecution, even to the point of being put to death at the hands of their enemies, without ever resorting to using swords in an attempt to deliver themselves from out of their hands.

His ill-conceived teaching - and that’s putting it mildly - logically leads to the horrifying conclusion that the apostles were “not following Jesus.”

 

[NayborBear]

One wonders how these people evangelize based on violence, anger and murder.
One wonders how many people will be converted into the faith after hearing about all this violence based Christianity.

It's down right sickening to read this on a Christian Forum.

Temper? Temper? Temper?
1 Corinthians 12:
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. (Yet?....you DO!)
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Are ALL "EVAGELIZERS?"
In YOUR eyes? If you're NOT?
I have no need of thee!
So sad to see people so high minded and SO "Cut Off?"
They don't even KNOW it!

 

[Matthias]

Temper? Temper? Temper?
1 Corinthians 12:
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. (Yet?....you DO!)
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Are ALL "EVAGELIZERS?"
In YOUR eyes? If you're NOT?
I have no need of thee!
So sad to see people so high minded and SO "Cut Off?"
They don't even KNOW it!

Not all who say they are part of the body are. The body I’m part of, for one thing, doesn’t use the weapons of the world. It is persecuted by bodies which do.

 

[Wrangler]

This is not at all relevant to this discussion, but it is a legitimate biblical position.

What are the reasons FOR the Crusades?

 

[NayborBear]

”You are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

When one kills an aggressor in DEFENSE?
I guess wearing YOUR "blinders?"
It's the SAME SAME!
RIGHT?!

Not all who say they are part of the body are. The body I’m part of, for one thing, doesn’t use the weapons of the world. It is persecuted by bodies which do.

In your first sentence? I got an "inkling" that: "WOW!" "I THINK he's starting to smell the aroma of coffee in the air!"
The REST of your post however? Tells me you are lacking the ways AND means AND "credentials?" As "how to proceed" WITH the "Spiritual Maturity" of the "INVESTIGATIVE NATURE" in properly locating the "SOURCE" of "WHERE that AROMA" is coming from!"

Which gives me cause to ponder. "Perhaps conditions haven't become "WESTERN ENOUGH" for, or to, ones' such as yourself?"


In my attempts to "evangelize" to those who are caused to "behave" like the picture above? Yet have "felt/known" there's something MORE from that which I've been being fed? (I guess I DO evangelize Matthias!....Just not TO the ones' YOU would like, or want!)
THERE IS!!!

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection(COMPLETENESS); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
1 Peter 2:5
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a SPIRITUAL HOUSE, an Holy Priesthood, to offer up SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES, acceptable TO God BY Jesus Christ.
John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
In this last verse Matthias? Jesus says he goes to PREPARE a place!
So? Why are you and ones' like you SO RELUCTANT to go?
Yanno? One of the "advdersary's" greater feats iS making people FEEL like "There's NO NEED to go SEEKING!" "CUZ YOU'RE THERE!"
EXCLUDING those "Wing Nuts" that "fly off the handle?"
"KEEP your powder DRY!"
Because? "tic tic tic tic tic?"

 

[Matthias]

How many Muslims have you killed with your sword?

Since you’re convinced that Jesus wants you - commands you - to kill your enemies, why aren’t you doing it?

@Wrangler refused to answer these - and many, many other - questions.

“No matter the subject, it is telling when people refuse to answer questions. It reveals they know their position cannot hold up to scrutiny but are emotionally invested in that position, which is a form of IDOLATRY.

The Bible refers to such people as not to have eyes to see or ears to hear. Modern lingo is willfull ignorance.”

(Wrangler, post #223, The Islamic Jihadi‘s War Against Christianity thread in the Christianity & Science forum)

Post in thread 'The Islamic Jihadi’s War Against Christianity'
The Islamic Jihadi’s War Against Christianity

“For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.” - Jesus, Matthew 7:2

Wrangler is mistaken in his judgement of others but he will be judged by his judgement of them.

***

A few passages of scripture for Wrangler - and for those who agree with his judgement - to consider:

Jesus before Pilate -> Matthew 27:14
Jesus in conversation with the gentile woman -> Matthew 15:23
Jesus before Herod -> Luke 23:9
Jesus in conversation with the chief priests -> Matthew 21:23-27
Jesus before Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin -> Matthew 26:59-63

@Armour of God @NayborBear

 

[Matthias]

When one kills an aggressor in DEFENSE?
I guess wearing YOUR "blinders?"
It's the SAME SAME!
RIGHT?!

In your first sentence? I got an "inkling" that: "WOW!" "I THINK he's starting to smell the aroma of coffee in the air!"
The REST of your post however? Tells me you are lacking the ways AND means AND "credentials?" As "how to proceed" WITH the "Spiritual Maturity" of the "INVESTIGATIVE NATURE" in properly locating the "SOURCE" of "WHERE that AROMA" is coming from!"

Which gives me cause to ponder. "Perhaps conditions haven't become "WESTERN ENOUGH" for, or to, ones' such as yourself?"
View attachment 84340

In my attempts to "evangelize" to those who are caused to "behave" like the picture above? Yet have "felt/known" there's something MORE from that which I've been being fed? (I guess I DO evangelize Matthias!....Just not TO the ones' YOU would like, or want!)
THERE IS!!!

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection(COMPLETENESS); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
1 Peter 2:5
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a SPIRITUAL HOUSE, an Holy Priesthood, to offer up SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES, acceptable TO God BY Jesus Christ.
John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
In this last verse Matthias? Jesus says he goes to PREPARE a place!
So? Why are you and ones' like you SO RELUCTANT to go?
Yanno? One of the "advdersary's" greater feats iS making people FEEL like "There's NO NEED to go SEEKING!" "CUZ YOU'RE THERE!"
EXCLUDING those "Wing Nuts" that "fly off the handle?"
"KEEP your powder DRY!"
Because? "tic tic tic tic tic?"
View attachment 84344

Those who love, believe and obey the teaching of Jesus and the apostles don’t use the weapons of the world.

 

[NayborBear]

Those who love, believe and obey the teaching of Jesus and the apostles don’t use the weapons of the world.

So, would you consider yourself as a "Pacifist?" Or, "Conscientious Objector?"

 

[Matthias]

So, would you consider yourself as a "Pacifist?" Or, "Conscientious Objector?"

The wise know that there is a time to speak and a time to remain silent.

I’ve answered those questions many times already. I call on @Wrangler to be my witness to the fact.

 

[Wrangler]

A few passages of scripture for Wrangler - and for those who agree with his judgement - to consider:

There you go again, only considering spiritual verses but ignoring the many soulful verses presented.

• Buy a sword.
• Give to Caesar what is Caesars
• Judge things in this life.
• Do justice.

Everyone prefers utopia but in the real world there are wrongs that need to be righted. I'm part of a prison ministry and try to help families and soon to be released convicts. My crusade is not their incarceration was an evil. I try to get them back on their feet and to Jesus. One of the guys in the ministry is a judge. He often doesn't like sentencing people but the law gives him no wiggle room. Justice be done or the heaven's fall.

 

[Matthias]

There you go again, only considering spiritual verses but ignoring the many soulful verses presented.

• Buy a sword.
• Give to Caesar what is Caesars
• Judge things in this life.
• Do justice.

Everyone prefers utopia but in the real world there are wrongs that need to be righted. I'm part of a prison ministry and try to help families and soon to be released convicts. My crusade is not their incarceration was an evil. I try to get them back on their feet and to Jesus. One of the guys in the ministry is a judge. He often doesn't like sentencing people but the law gives him no wiggle room. Justice be done or the heaven's fall.

I rely upon the whole counsel of scripture.

God has an authorized agent for using the weapons of the world in responding to evil. Romans 13.

 

[NayborBear]

The wise know that there is a time to speak and a time to remain silent.

Well? I guess that shows how wise,or unwise, you are!
Because there's ALSO, a Time to War, and a Time to Heal!
So you must be of the ALWAYS Healing and "NEVER HEALED" crowd?

 

[Matthias]

Well? I guess that shows how wise,or unwise, you are!

Generally speaking, I’m wise.

Because there's ALSO, a Time to War, and a Time to Heal!

That’s right.

So you must be of the ALWAYS Healing and "NEVER HEALED" crowd?

No. I was healed of my warring madness by the Messiah.