What is Salvation?

[Richard Aberdeen]

Paul opens and closes every letter attributed to him with "grace" to you followed often by "mercy" and/or "peace", always listing grace first. He also says that Jesus gives us more grace and, we grow from grace to grace (more free, bigger and better understanding).

Unlike many Christians teach, why would Paul say this if salvation isn't an ongoing process, as if we no longer need any more grace or understanding ? ? ? Consider how crazy it would be for someone to believe they could read and understand the entire Encyclopedia Britannica in one day. And that is nothing, compared to what Jesus knows and, we have yet to learn.

Salvation is not just about learning, but also about being changed by God from the inside out and as a result, having more love and becoming more free. It may be fair to define "salvation" as everything God wants to do for us, in us and through us. If we don't want Jesus to save us from our sins, we will never be remotely free, for sin makes us less free, not more free. And, it is a hard and difficult row to hoe to try to care without God's help, "for God is love".

"Moreover, the Lord is the spirit; where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We all moreover, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the spirit" II Corinthians 3:17-18(corrected to the Greek).

Verse 18 cannot rationally be interpreted some other way, other than an ongoing process. Over time, the better we will know and understand what is true, the more free we will become and, the more love we will have for both ourselves and other people; "for God is love" 1 John 4:7-8.

God's salvation, found only in Jesus, is a lifetime ongoing process, as indicated by Paul several times, who after many years, did not view himself as having attained. In I Corinthians 1:18 Paul says, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." The Greek definitely means "being saved".

And as Paul writes in Philippians 3:12-14: "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Messiah Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Messiah Jesus."

Again, Paul writes elsewhere in I Corinthians 8:2: "And if anyone thinks that they know anything, they know nothing yet as they ought to know". Those who teach that salvation is not an ongoing daily process and, who say if we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we no longer need him to forgive us, are in direct contradiction to the New Testament.

According to John 1:8-9, written to people who are already believers in Jesus: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and, to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Note that John says if "we" confess "our" sins, including himself personally.

Jesus saving us from our sins is quite clearly a daily, ongoing process. Otherwise, the above quotations from Paul and John quite literally, don't make any sense. The entire idea of God's free salvation is to believe in and know Jesus better and in doing so, become more and more free and have more "love, one for another". As noted earlier, Jesus says if we listen to him, we "will know the truth and the truth will make us free" and if he makes us free, we will be "free, indeed".

Jesus clearly implies an ongoing learning process when he says "you will know the truth and the truth will make you free", which agrees with Paul and I John. Who for example, has shown up for the first day of elementary school and, learned everything they need to know about God and life on the first day?

If the idea is to learn more of what is true so we can be more free, how could anyone claim that salvation isn't an ongoing process? And, if we don't want Jesus to continue to forgive us once we have asked him, who is going to "cleanse us from all sin", like John says in I John 1:7?

Conservative Christianity very wrongly teaches that once we are saved, we no longer need to be saved and, once we are forgiven, we no longer need to be forgiven. Hopefully the above few paragraphs puts this twisted teaching down in the Pit permanently where it belongs. Apparently, the truth is, once we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we are saved from God's wrath and, we have eternal life from that point forward.

But we have much to improve on, experience, understand, go through and grow over time and thus, salvation is also an ongoing lifetime process. Who among us can say "I have achieved", as if we need no more improvement and have nothing left to understand or accomplish?

 

[Justified]

I think there is something crucial missing in your discussion, namely, that the Bible talks about salvation as a past event (justification), an ongoing process (sanctification), and a future, final state (glorification).

Justification is "to be declared righteous;" to have been saved from the penalty and guilt of sin (Gal. 3:24-26; Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 3:5). Sanctification is both a one-time event and ongoing process; it is to be set apart and made holy, to be saved from the power of sin (1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 5:22-24; Eph. 4:24; Col. 1:22-23; 2 Thes. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:21-22; Heb. 12:14). Glorification is to be saved from the presence of sin and occurs at the return of Christ (Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:30; Col. 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

What do you mean by "Conservative Christianity"? What other kind(s) of Christianity is(are) there? I don't know of any "conservative Christianity" that teaches "once we are forgiven, we no longer need to be forgiven." There is, however, a strong case to be made for once saved, always saved; rightly understood, that is.

What is the difference between "once we are saved, we no longer need to be saved" and "once we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we are saved from God's wrath and, we have eternal life from that point forward"? I see no essential difference, so what makes one false and the other true?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Paul opens and closes every letter attributed to him with "grace" to you followed often by "mercy" and/or "peace", always listing grace first. He also says that Jesus gives us more grace and, we grow from grace to grace (more free, bigger and better understanding).

Unlike many Christians teach, why would Paul say this if salvation isn't an ongoing process, as if we no longer need any more grace or understanding ? ? ? Consider how crazy it would be for someone to believe they could read and understand the entire Encyclopedia Britannica in one day. And that is nothing, compared to what Jesus knows and, we have yet to learn.

Salvation is not just about learning, but also about being changed by God from the inside out and as a result, having more love and becoming more free. It may be fair to define "salvation" as everything God wants to do for us, in us and through us. If we don't want Jesus to save us from our sins, we will never be remotely free, for sin makes us less free, not more free. And, it is a hard and difficult row to hoe to try to care without God's help, "for God is love".

"Moreover, the Lord is the spirit; where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We all moreover, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the spirit" II Corinthians 3:17-18(corrected to the Greek).

Verse 18 cannot rationally be interpreted some other way, other than an ongoing process. Over time, the better we will know and understand what is true, the more free we will become and, the more love we will have for both ourselves and other people; "for God is love" 1 John 4:7-8.

God's salvation, found only in Jesus, is a lifetime ongoing process, as indicated by Paul several times, who after many years, did not view himself as having attained. In I Corinthians 1:18 Paul says, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." The Greek definitely means "being saved".

And as Paul writes in Philippians 3:12-14: "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Messiah Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Messiah Jesus."

Again, Paul writes elsewhere in I Corinthians 8:2: "And if anyone thinks that they know anything, they know nothing yet as they ought to know". Those who teach that salvation is not an ongoing daily process and, who say if we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we no longer need him to forgive us, are in direct contradiction to the New Testament.

According to John 1:8-9, written to people who are already believers in Jesus: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and, to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Note that John says if "we" confess "our" sins, including himself personally.

Jesus saving us from our sins is quite clearly a daily, ongoing process. Otherwise, the above quotations from Paul and John quite literally, don't make any sense. The entire idea of God's free salvation is to believe in and know Jesus better and in doing so, become more and more free and have more "love, one for another". As noted earlier, Jesus says if we listen to him, we "will know the truth and the truth will make us free" and if he makes us free, we will be "free, indeed".

Jesus clearly implies an ongoing learning process when he says "you will know the truth and the truth will make you free", which agrees with Paul and I John. Who for example, has shown up for the first day of elementary school and, learned everything they need to know about God and life on the first day?

If the idea is to learn more of what is true so we can be more free, how could anyone claim that salvation isn't an ongoing process? And, if we don't want Jesus to continue to forgive us once we have asked him, who is going to "cleanse us from all sin", like John says in I John 1:7?

Conservative Christianity very wrongly teaches that once we are saved, we no longer need to be saved and, once we are forgiven, we no longer need to be forgiven. Hopefully the above few paragraphs puts this twisted teaching down in the Pit permanently where it belongs. Apparently, the truth is, once we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we are saved from God's wrath and, we have eternal life from that point forward.

But we have much to improve on, experience, understand, go through and grow over time and thus, salvation is also an ongoing lifetime process. Who among us can say "I have achieved", as if we need no more improvement and have nothing left to understand or accomplish?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Paul opens and closes every letter attributed to him with "grace" to you followed often by "mercy" and/or "peace", always listing grace first. He also says that Jesus gives us more grace and, we grow from grace to grace (more free, bigger and better understanding).

Unlike many Christians teach, why would Paul say this if salvation isn't an ongoing process, as if we no longer need any more grace or understanding ? ? ? Consider how crazy it would be for someone to believe they could read and understand the entire Encyclopedia Britannica in one day. And that is nothing, compared to what Jesus knows and, we have yet to learn.

Salvation is not just about learning, but also about being changed by God from the inside out and as a result, having more love and becoming more free. It may be fair to define "salvation" as everything God wants to do for us, in us and through us. If we don't want Jesus to save us from our sins, we will never be remotely free, for sin makes us less free, not more free. And, it is a hard and difficult row to hoe to try to care without God's help, "for God is love".

"Moreover, the Lord is the spirit; where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We all moreover, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the spirit" II Corinthians 3:17-18(corrected to the Greek).

Verse 18 cannot rationally be interpreted some other way, other than an ongoing process. Over time, the better we will know and understand what is true, the more free we will become and, the more love we will have for both ourselves and other people; "for God is love" 1 John 4:7-8.

God's salvation, found only in Jesus, is a lifetime ongoing process, as indicated by Paul several times, who after many years, did not view himself as having attained. In I Corinthians 1:18 Paul says, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." The Greek definitely means "being saved".

And as Paul writes in Philippians 3:12-14: "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Messiah Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Messiah Jesus."

Again, Paul writes elsewhere in I Corinthians 8:2: "And if anyone thinks that they know anything, they know nothing yet as they ought to know". Those who teach that salvation is not an ongoing daily process and, who say if we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we no longer need him to forgive us, are in direct contradiction to the New Testament.

According to John 1:8-9, written to people who are already believers in Jesus: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and, to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Note that John says if "we" confess "our" sins, including himself personally.

Jesus saving us from our sins is quite clearly a daily, ongoing process. Otherwise, the above quotations from Paul and John quite literally, don't make any sense. The entire idea of God's free salvation is to believe in and know Jesus better and in doing so, become more and more free and have more "love, one for another". As noted earlier, Jesus says if we listen to him, we "will know the truth and the truth will make us free" and if he makes us free, we will be "free, indeed".

Jesus clearly implies an ongoing learning process when he says "you will know the truth and the truth will make you free", which agrees with Paul and I John. Who for example, has shown up for the first day of elementary school and, learned everything they need to know about God and life on the first day?

If the idea is to learn more of what is true so we can be more free, how could anyone claim that salvation isn't an ongoing process? And, if we don't want Jesus to continue to forgive us once we have asked him, who is going to "cleanse us from all sin", like John says in I John 1:7?

Conservative Christianity very wrongly teaches that once we are saved, we no longer need to be saved and, once we are forgiven, we no longer need to be forgiven. Hopefully the above few paragraphs puts this twisted teaching down in the Pit permanently where it belongs. Apparently, the truth is, once we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we are saved from God's wrath and, we have eternal life from that point forward.

But we have much to improve on, experience, understand, go through and grow over time and thus, salvation is also an ongoing lifetime process. Who among us can say "I have achieved", as if we need no more improvement and have nothing left to understand or accomplish?

"""Salvation is not just about learning, but also about being changed by God from the inside out and as a result, ""
I listen to the simplicity of the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel revealed to only Paul by Christ Gal 1:11-12
By hearing then ONGOING believing, trusting the Gospel you ARE justified (saved,sealed,made righteous)
The rest of your life (ACTIONS) then decides your eternal rewards/loss - Rom 14-10, 1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 5:10

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

I think there is something crucial missing in your discussion, namely, that the Bible talks about salvation as a past event (justification), an ongoing process (sanctification), and a future, final state (glorification).

Justification is "to be declared righteous;" to have been saved from the penalty and guilt of sin (Gal. 3:24-26; Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 3:5). Sanctification is both a one-time event and ongoing process; it is to be set apart and made holy, to be saved from the power of sin (1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 5:22-24; Eph. 4:24; Col. 1:22-23; 2 Thes. 2:13; 2 Tim. 2:21-22; Heb. 12:14). Glorification is to be saved from the presence of sin and occurs at the return of Christ (Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:30; Col. 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

What do you mean by "Conservative Christianity"? What other kind(s) of Christianity is(are) there? I don't know of any "conservative Christianity" that teaches "once we are forgiven, we no longer need to be forgiven." There is, however, a strong case to be made for once saved, always saved; rightly understood, that is.

What is the difference between "once we are saved, we no longer need to be saved" and "once we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we are saved from God's wrath and, we have eternal life from that point forward"? I see no essential difference, so what makes one false and the other true?

According to the Bible, salvation is a past event, present event and future event, all three. I Corinthians, as noted in my article, clearly says those who are "being saved" in the present tense, in the Greek; many modern translations are not accurate to what the Greek says.

Salvation means we are forever saved from the wrath of God. Salvation is also God making us better on a daily and ongoing basis. And we will be completely and totally saved when we receive our new heavenly bodies, after Jesus returns. Those who teach otherwise are denying what the Bible clearly teaches.

 

[Justified]

According to the Bible, salvation is a past event, present event and future event, all three.

Yes, I know; that is what I stated.

I Corinthians, as noted in my article, clearly says those who are "being saved" in the present tense, in the Greek; many modern translations are not accurate to what the Greek says.

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (ESV)

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (NASB)

1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (NIV)

1Co 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (LEB)

1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (NKJV)

1Co 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God's power to us who are being saved. (HCSB)

1Co 1:18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. (NLT)

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. (LSB)

1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (BSB)

I can't seem to find a modern translation that doesn't say "are being saved."

Salvation means we are forever saved from the wrath of God. Salvation is also God making us better on a daily and ongoing basis. And we will be completely and totally saved when we receive our new heavenly bodies, after Jesus returns.

I agree; I have stated all that as well.

Those who teach otherwise are denying what the Bible clearly teaches.

But who is denying any of that? And, again, what do you mean by "Conservative Christianity"? What other kind(s) of Christianity is(are) there?

What is the difference between "once we are saved, we no longer need to be saved" and "once we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we are saved from God's wrath and, we have eternal life from that point forward"? I see no essential difference, so what makes one false and the other true?

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Some other translations say "have been saved" and also in Ephesians, the Greek says "by grace you are saved", whereas several other translations including NKJV say "by grace you have been saved." Modern translations contain considerable Christian bias that is not true to the Greek. Here are a few of many examples:

Gospel - correctly translated as "good news" from the Greek.

Church – “assembly”.

Apostle – “sent one”, such as Paul and Peter the “sent ones”. Paul calls other people “sent ones” besides the twelve, including a woman.

Deacon - "servant".

Bishop - "overseer” or “elder".

Pastor – "shepherd". Shepherds did not preach sermons and were not leader.


Word (in John 1:1) – correctly translated as “the logos”. The logos refers to Creator and universal Mind behind the universe; ultimate truth and wisdom; universal and beyond view or God's view, as opposed to human understanding. Logos does mean word in Greek, but "the logos" did not mean “word” to the Greeks, as modern bibles mistranslate the entire idea and meaning.

Epistle - "letter".

Doctrine - "teaching".

Homosexual - correctly translated as “homosexual sex”, referring to the act, not the person. God is not against people. Rather, God is against what people often do, including fornication, adultery and homosexual sex; all three listed together in I Corinthians 6:9. “For God did not send his son into the world to condemn people, but that people through him might be saved.”

Disciple – "follower" / "student".

Angel – “messenger”

Minister – “servant” – Ministry - “service”
Preach - "proclaim" – anyone can proclaim the good news of Jesus; no religious cemetery degree either needed, required or desired. However, one should be very careful regarding anything in the Bible, that they understand and teach others correctly.

Saint - a saint is someone who has been made holy by being washed by the blood of Jesus. No pope or other human being can make anyone a saint. Only Jesus can make someone a saint. And we cannot make ourselves a saint by doing good works or refraining from certain things. Only through forgiveness from Jesus can someone become a saint.

These mistranslations are used to turn Jesus into a religion, which is not the intention of the New Testament; Jesus is deliberately secular, eating, drinking and associating with sinners and the common people, while railing against the religionists of his time. The New Testament is written in secular Koine Greek, the language of the common people. True religion is defined in James I:27.

 

[Anchorite]

Saint - a saint is someone who has been made holy by being washed by the blood of Jesus. No pope or other human being can make anyone a saint. Only Jesus can make someone a saint. And we cannot make ourselves a saint by doing good works or refraining from certain things. Only through forgiveness from Jesus can someone become a saint.

These mistranslations are used to turn Jesus into a religion, which is not the intention of the New Testament; Jesus is deliberately secular, eating, drinking and associating with sinners and the common people, while railing against the religionists of his time. The New Testament is written in secular Koine Greek, the language of the common people. True religion is defined in James I:27.

Jesus did start a new religion, by reforming and fulfilling the religion of Israel, then going beyond it at the cross, ushering in the administration of grace. He said He would build His church. He gave instructions on how to perform His new religion. He railed against only the religionists who opposed Him.

Jesus was spiritual and holy, never secular or materialistic. He sometimes associated with sinners to bring them into the kingdom of heaven, not to adopt or approve of their lifestyles. Jesus spent time with His disciples and off alone in prayer.

A saint is someone made holy by trusting in Christ AND who does good works springing from their faith AND abstaining from fleshly desires and worldliness.

1 John 2

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Jesus did start a new religion, by reforming and fulfilling the religion of Israel, then going beyond it at the cross, ushering in the administration of grace. He said He would build His church.

Jesus was spiritual and a holy, never secular or materialistic. He sometimes associated with sinners to bring them into the kingdom of heaven, not to adopt or approve of their lifestyles. Jesus spent time with His disciples and off alone in prayer.

A saint is someone made holy by trusting in Christ AND who does good works springing from their faith AND abstaining from fleshly desires and worldliness.

1 John 2

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

No, Jesus is not the founder of Christianity. Modern Christianity isn't remotely biblical. James 1:27 is the only religion acceptable to God, which isn't a religion by modern definition.

 

[Anchorite]

No, Jesus is not the founder of Christianity. Modern Christianity isn't remotely biblical. James 1:27 is the only religion acceptable to God, which isn't a religion by modern definition.

You are so superior to all churches, seminaries, and pastors. Your definition of Christianity is the only definition. Your opinion of religion is the only valid opinion. Everyone is wrong, except you. And you are angry about it.

Pride is the sin that caused Lucifer to fall from heaven.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

You are so superior to all churches, seminaries, and pastors. Your definition of Christianity is the only definition. Your opinion of religion is the only valid opinion. Everyone is wrong, except you. And you are angry about it.

Pride is the sin that caused Lucifer to fall from heaven.

I try to base my opinion on facts and I'm not ashamed to state it.

 

[Justified]

Some other translations say "have been saved"

Can you provide one modern translation that states that in 1 Cor. 1:18?

and also in Ephesians, the Greek says "by grace you are saved", whereas several other translations including NKJV say "by grace you have been saved." Modern translations contain considerable Christian bias that is not true to the Greek.

If you want to argue to the Greek, then argue to the Greek. What you will find is that the Greek is different in 1 Cor. 1:18 and other passages like Eph. 2:8. You cannot make the claim that “Modern translations contain considerable Christian bias that is not true to the Greek,” if you’re simply not understanding the Greek or changing it to what you think it should say without any basis for doing so.

Apart from that, Christian books will have biases regardless, so what other bias(es) should we expect? Why be so concerned if the Bible has supposed “Christian bias”?

What translation do you use?

Here are a few of many examples:

Gospel - correctly translated as "good news" from the Greek.

Church – “assembly”.

Apostle – “sent one”, such as Paul and Peter the “sent ones”. Paul calls other people “sent ones” besides the twelve, including a woman.

Deacon - "servant".

Bishop - "overseer” or “elder".

Pastor – "shepherd". Shepherds did not preach sermons and were not leader.


Word (in John 1:1) – correctly translated as “the logos”. The logos refers to Creator and universal Mind behind the universe; ultimate truth and wisdom; universal and beyond view or God's view, as opposed to human understanding. Logos does mean word in Greek, but "the logos" did not mean “word” to the Greeks, as modern bibles mistranslate the entire idea and meaning.

Epistle - "letter".

Doctrine - "teaching".

Homosexual - correctly translated as “homosexual sex”, referring to the act, not the person. God is not against people. Rather, God is against what people often do, including fornication, adultery and homosexual sex; all three listed together in I Corinthians 6:9. “For God did not send his son into the world to condemn people, but that people through him might be saved.”

Disciple – "follower" / "student".

Angel – “messenger”

Minister – “servant” – Ministry - “service”
Preach - "proclaim" – anyone can proclaim the good news of Jesus; no religious cemetery degree either needed, required or desired. However, one should be very careful regarding anything in the Bible, that they understand and teach others correctly.

Saint - a saint is someone who has been made holy by being washed by the blood of Jesus. No pope or other human being can make anyone a saint. Only Jesus can make someone a saint. And we cannot make ourselves a saint by doing good works or refraining from certain things. Only through forgiveness from Jesus can someone become a saint.

These mistranslations are used to turn Jesus into a religion, which is not the intention of the New Testament; Jesus is deliberately secular, eating, drinking and associating with sinners and the common people, while railing against the religionists of his time. The New Testament is written in secular Koine Greek, the language of the common people. True religion is defined in James I:27.

On what basis do you claim that the translations are wrong in using such words? Are you formally trained in koine Greek? Each translation is done by a committee that consists of many who are well trained in the ancient languages, as well as linguists and others. The whole point is to choose words in English (and other languages) that best get the meaning across to modern readers.

 

[Anchorite]

I try to base my opinion on facts and I'm not ashamed to state it.

Your “facts” are based on nothing more than your holier than thou attitude and judgmental bias.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Can you provide one modern translation that states that in 1 Cor. 1:18?


If you want to argue to the Greek, then argue to the Greek. What you will find is that the Greek is different in 1 Cor. 1:18 and other passages like Eph. 2:8. You cannot make the claim that “Modern translations contain considerable Christian bias that is not true to the Greek,” if you’re simply not understanding the Greek or changing it to what you think it should say without any basis for doing so.

Apart from that, Christian books will have biases regardless, so what other bias(es) should we expect? Why be so concerned if the Bible has supposed “Christian bias”?

What translation do you use?


On what basis do you claim that the translations are wrong in using such words? Are you formally trained in koine Greek? Each translation is done by a committee that consists of many who are well trained in the ancient languages, as well as linguists and others. The whole point is to choose words in English (and other languages) that best get the meaning across to modern readers.

Read Ephesians 2:8-9 in all your different translations. The Greek says, "by grace you are saved. . ." Many say "by grace you have been saved, not the same meaning as the Greek, deliberately and on purpose mistranslated. The KJV gets it correct. The NKJV gets it wrong.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. . . NKJV" This is not what the Greek says. You can see what the Greek says here: Ephesians 2:8 Greek Text Analysis

 

[Justified]

Read Ephesians 2:8-9 in all your different translations. The Greek says, "by grace you are saved. . ." Many say "by grace you have been saved, not the same meaning as the Greek, deliberately and on purpose mistranslated. The KJV gets it correct. The NKJV gets it wrong.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. . . NKJV" This is not what the Greek says. You can see what the Greek says here: Ephesians 2:8 Greek Text Analysis

How is “by grace you are saved” different from “by grace you have been saved”?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Paul opens and closes every letter attributed to him with "grace" to you followed often by "mercy" and/or "peace", always listing grace first. He also says that Jesus gives us more grace and, we grow from grace to grace (more free, bigger and better understanding).

Unlike many Christians teach, why would Paul say this if salvation isn't an ongoing process, as if we no longer need any more grace or understanding ? ? ? Consider how crazy it would be for someone to believe they could read and understand the entire Encyclopedia Britannica in one day. And that is nothing, compared to what Jesus knows and, we have yet to learn.

Salvation is not just about learning, but also about being changed by God from the inside out and as a result, having more love and becoming more free. It may be fair to define "salvation" as everything God wants to do for us, in us and through us. If we don't want Jesus to save us from our sins, we will never be remotely free, for sin makes us less free, not more free. And, it is a hard and difficult row to hoe to try to care without God's help, "for God is love".

"Moreover, the Lord is the spirit; where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We all moreover, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the spirit" II Corinthians 3:17-18(corrected to the Greek).

Verse 18 cannot rationally be interpreted some other way, other than an ongoing process. Over time, the better we will know and understand what is true, the more free we will become and, the more love we will have for both ourselves and other people; "for God is love" 1 John 4:7-8.

God's salvation, found only in Jesus, is a lifetime ongoing process, as indicated by Paul several times, who after many years, did not view himself as having attained. In I Corinthians 1:18 Paul says, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." The Greek definitely means "being saved".

And as Paul writes in Philippians 3:12-14: "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Messiah Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Messiah Jesus."

Again, Paul writes elsewhere in I Corinthians 8:2: "And if anyone thinks that they know anything, they know nothing yet as they ought to know". Those who teach that salvation is not an ongoing daily process and, who say if we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we no longer need him to forgive us, are in direct contradiction to the New Testament.

According to John 1:8-9, written to people who are already believers in Jesus: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and, to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Note that John says if "we" confess "our" sins, including himself personally.

Jesus saving us from our sins is quite clearly a daily, ongoing process. Otherwise, the above quotations from Paul and John quite literally, don't make any sense. The entire idea of God's free salvation is to believe in and know Jesus better and in doing so, become more and more free and have more "love, one for another". As noted earlier, Jesus says if we listen to him, we "will know the truth and the truth will make us free" and if he makes us free, we will be "free, indeed".

Jesus clearly implies an ongoing learning process when he says "you will know the truth and the truth will make you free", which agrees with Paul and I John. Who for example, has shown up for the first day of elementary school and, learned everything they need to know about God and life on the first day?

If the idea is to learn more of what is true so we can be more free, how could anyone claim that salvation isn't an ongoing process? And, if we don't want Jesus to continue to forgive us once we have asked him, who is going to "cleanse us from all sin", like John says in I John 1:7?

Conservative Christianity very wrongly teaches that once we are saved, we no longer need to be saved and, once we are forgiven, we no longer need to be forgiven. Hopefully the above few paragraphs puts this twisted teaching down in the Pit permanently where it belongs. Apparently, the truth is, once we have asked Jesus to forgive us, we are saved from God's wrath and, we have eternal life from that point forward.

But we have much to improve on, experience, understand, go through and grow over time and thus, salvation is also an ongoing lifetime process. Who among us can say "I have achieved", as if we need no more improvement and have nothing left to understand or accomplish?

Hello, Brother R. Aberdeen, how are you? We are well. Thanks for sharing .

Love, Walter