What is the purpose of Grace?

[MostlyConfused]

Can you offer Scripture for that ?

Thanks in advance.

it’s the beginning of one of the letters to Timothy, whichever one begins with…know that there will be perilous times and men will love only themselves and money.

 

[MostlyConfused]

For God's sake, people, instead of telling me about this power and lopping Bible grenades at each other, SHOW me through a life of humility, self-restraint, selfless giving, and loving-kindness towards your neighbors.

We are at a place where men declare it mean and heartless to tell the truth. Whole family systems are built around it. You may not believe me if you weren’t raised in one of those dynamics, but I assure you, they exist, and they perpetuate through generations, that useless way of life taught to us by our parents where if you tell the truth you are hated and must be silenced. That same dynamic is occurring in here. They cling to it because it’s what they know and are conformed to and are comfortable with. Just passing through without examining the thread to discern the dynamic and understand it won’t help. Men truly think that to tell the truth is vicious, violent and an assault on their person. You see it in the microcosm of this thread and also playing out in the world, beginning with politically correct speech and ending with children being taken from parents if those parents won’t call their son a girl or permit doctors (butchers, actually) to physically deform them to make them feel confirmed in their unreality.

 

[Episkopos]

Can you offer Scripture for that ?

Thanks in advance.

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Tim 3:4-7

 

[MostlyConfused]

There you go, chapter 3. In my mind the letter began with it.
Another passage came to mind as I typed my last reply, from the OT. The one that says…
They rely on confusion and tell lies and anyone who turns from evil becomes their prey. It explains the dynamic too.

 

[ProDeo]

We are at a place where men declare it mean and heartless to tell the truth. Whole family systems are built around it. You may not believe me if you weren’t raised in one of those dynamics, but I assure you, they exist, and they perpetuate through generations, that useless way of life taught to us by our parents where if you tell the truth you are hated and must be silenced. That same dynamic is occurring in here. They cling to it because it’s what they know and are conformed to and are comfortable with. Just passing through without examining the thread to discern the dynamic and understand it won’t help. Men truly think that to tell the truth is vicious, violent and an assault on their person. You see it in the microcosm of this thread and also playing out in the world, beginning with politically correct speech and ending with children being taken from parents if those parents won’t call their son a girl or permit doctors (butchers, actually) to physically deform them to make them feel confirmed in their unreality.

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires - desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.
-- Bertrand Russell, philosopher

This is why truthers (and I am certainly not) are unable to change their minds, whatever evidence is offered.

 

[ProDeo]

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Tim 3:4-7

I don't feel addressed

 

[Laurina]

Disparaging one liners without any context is what we are talking about.

The context was within what she responded to, it follows.

You are not without points here regarding amigo, it is like you said yourself and we have been there. Hard to understand his posts.

However, you aren't equal with whom you "police/judge". There are times when he is very clear about the lies he spreads about Epi.

 

[ProDeo]

The context was within what she responded to, it follows.

However, you aren't equal with whom you "police/judge". There are times when he is very clear about the lies he spreads about Epi.

I am sorry, but you can not force me to read every post of him. One big block of text, uppercase mixed with lowercase, a pain for the eye. I hardly read his posts because of that and when I do I am lost after 2 or 3 lines. We have been there, I don't like to rehash. But notify me when he does and I will check. Is that okay?

 

[Lizbeth]

Very few see the need (the dire need) to be crucified and broken by the power of the cross. But without that breaking we remain a sinner just as before. The ONLY way to be rid of the sin nature is by being crucified under the power (anointing) of the cross of Christ.

His power is undeniable. Jesus gives us this power over the flesh and sin. But before we can have something of eternal value...He needs to TAKE AWAY what is filthy and corrupted.

Jeremiah was sent to the nations (that's us) and his very difficult ministry was to first break down and tear down....before he could build and plant. What God does He first informs the prophets. Later in Jeremiah we see the same thing, but this time it's God Himself doing the breaking and rebuilding.

It seems foolish to religious people that there is a power from heaven to do what most people keep locked away in their minds. People invent ways to avoid the truth...like creating a "positional" theology that allows for unbroken people to claim to have been crucified with Christ. The seeming foolishness of believing in what people can't see or imagine...is made doubly foolish by claiming things that aren't true about those invisible things. Like having an imaginary friend.

What people will do, based on the invisible nature of spiritual things...is claim to be clothed when they are naked....since they think everyone else is following the same deception.

How well and clearly you are demonstrating that you don't understand FAITH, so no wonder you are denigrating and mocking it. God calleth those things which be not as though they are. And faith is the evidence of things not yet seen, the substance of things hoped for. Selah. But it appears the Lord is hiding this understanding from you and only revealing it to little children. One needs to have the Holy Spirit and faith to be able to receive and grasp these things.

 

[Lizbeth]

Very true. Our own 3rd wave in the churches is...cannot define what a saint is. As in...it's whatever you think it means. Religious hubris.

It's clear from scripture that saints are all who have received Christ and are saved by faith..

 

[Lizbeth]

This is what Paul called having a likeness of godliness and interest in always learning about it while never coming to know the truth for denying the power that could make them so.

What about those who deny the power that HAS made us so? There would be no hope of putting on the new man except that we had already received it. No hope of reckoning the old man dead except that he had already been crucified. Etc.

 

[amigo de christo]

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Tim 3:4-7

having a form of godliness but denying the POWER thereof .
The gospel of JESUS CHRIST IS the POWER of GOD .
For it is the power of God unto all WHO BELIEVE EPI . WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST JESUS .
Sounds to me like some are indeed Having a form of godliness
talking about holiness , rig hteousness , doing good works , YET DENY the POWER thereof .
Inclusivism . One o one . DENIES the power of GOD .
A man cannot preach things about holiness , righteousness , and etc
THEN harp on those who remind all a bout the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS .
Nor can one lip His name and yet walk in darkness and embrace sins and lies .

 

[amigo de christo]

exact

What about those who deny the power that HAS made us so? There would be no hope of putting on the new man except that we had already received it. No hope of reckoning the old man dead except that he had already been crucified. Etc.

exactly sister . And inclusivism DOES just that . It clearly states a fat lie sister .
What most have no idea about is , this is just nothing more than the creation of a religoin
MEANT to merge all religoins under the idea we all serving the same GOD .
BELIEF IN JESUS was always in the way of their creation .
Because if one has TO T RULY BELIEVE ON JESUS
then that just made v oid ALL other religoins WHO DO NOT call upon HIS NAME in TRUTH .
The one thing that literally brought death upon man
was the lie that said SURELY YE SHALL NOT DIE if you eat of that tree .
And now the lie to keep them trapped in the bondage of sin and death is
OH its okay IF YE BELEIVE NOT ON JESUS CHRIST .
Man messed it all up in that garden . THEN years later GOD would send the SON
to redeem man , to bring man out from the bondage of sin and of death .
And yet again the serpent hollers , SURELY
they will not perish if they believe not . Surely they can all pick up their own crosses
and walk righteously even if they beleive not .
Yet as i have said before , HOW RIGHTEOUS IS IT to call GOD A LIAR . How holy is that .
All of it is but a delusion to believe a lie . THE LIE of anti christ .
WHO is a liar but he who denies JESUS is THE CHRIST , HE is anti christ .
HE who believes NOT the testimony that GOD g ave of the SON calls GOD a liar .
SO guess what anyone who says or even implies that its not necessary to have to BELEIVE ON JESUS
really saying to all . THAT IT IS OKAY TO CALL GOD A LIAR , hey just pick up your own crosses
and PROVE YE CAN DO THIS yourself . NOT gonna bode well for those at all .

 

[Marvelloustime]

having a form of godliness but denying the POWER thereof .
The gospel of JESUS CHRIST IS the POWER of GOD .
For it is the power of God unto all WHO BELIEVE EPI . WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST JESUS .
Sounds to me like some are indeed Having a form of godliness
talking about holiness , rig hteousness , doing good works , YET DENY the POWER thereof .
Inclusivism . One o one . DENIES the power of GOD .
A man cannot preach things about holiness , righteousness , and etc
THEN harp on those who remind all a bout the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS .
Nor can one lip His name and yet walk in darkness and embrace sins and lies .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

exact

exactly sister . And inclusivism DOES just that . It clearly states a fat lie sister .
What most have no idea about is , this is just nothing more than the creation of a religoin
MEANT to merge all religoins under the idea we all serving the same GOD .
BELIEF IN JESUS was always in the way of their creation .
Because if one has TO T RULY BELIEVE ON JESUS
then that just made v oid ALL other religoins WHO DO NOT call upon HIS NAME in TRUTH .
The one thing that literally brought death upon man
was the lie that said SURELY YE SHALL NOT DIE if you eat of that tree .
And now the lie to keep them trapped in the bondage of sin and death is
OH its okay IF YE BELEIVE NOT ON JESUS CHRIST .
Man messed it all up in that garden . THEN years later GOD would send the SON
to redeem man , to bring man out from the bondage of sin and of death .
And yet again the serpent hollers , SURELY
they will not perish if they believe not . Surely they can all pick up their own crosses
and walk righteously even if they beleive not .
Yet as i have said before , HOW RIGHTEOUS IS IT to call GOD A LIAR . How holy is that .
All of it is but a delusion to believe a lie . THE LIE of anti christ .
WHO is a liar but he who denies JESUS is THE CHRIST , HE is anti christ .
HE who believes NOT the testimony that GOD g ave of the SON calls GOD a liar .
SO guess what anyone who says or even implies that its not necessary to have to BELEIVE ON JESUS
really saying to all . THAT IT IS OKAY TO CALL GOD A LIAR , hey just pick up your own crosses
and PROVE YE CAN DO THIS yourself . NOT gonna bode well for those at all .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

It's clear from scripture that saints are all who have received Christ and are saved by faith..

yes it is dear sister .
And now for a reminder for us all .
Pual had received mercy of GOD for the things He did BEFORE being drawn to Christ .
And he even says for i did it in IGNORNACE .
But what about those who are in WILLFULL ignorance .
Not so for those .
For after hearing the Truth if one recieves it not , THEY ARE no longer ignorant but WILLFULLY ignoring it .
WILLFULL ignorance is not simpley to be ignorant of the TRUTH
ITS when one hears it and simply THEN REFUSES IT .
Like was with sins and many others sister .
Tis why peter would later write THESE are WILLFULLY ignorant .
MAN Y have heard sister and cannot cliam ignorance . MANY have heard
and yet have rejected and rather recreated another god in their own image and of their own making .

 

[amigo de christo]

And now for a reminder for us all .
Pual had received mercy of GOD for the things He did BEFORE being drawn to Christ .
And he even says for i did it in IGNORNACE .
But what about those who are in WILLFULL ignorance .
Not so for those .
For after hearing the Truth if one recieves it not , THEY ARE no longer ignorant but WILLFULLY ignoring it .
WILLFULL ignorance is not simpley to be ignorant of the TRUTH
ITS when one hears it and simply THEN REFUSES IT .
Like was with sins and many other things they do . .
Tis why peter would later write THESE are WILLFULLY ignorant .
MAN Y have heard and cannot cliam ignorance . MANY have heard
and yet have rejected and rather recreated another god in their own image and of their own making .
When the TRUTH is spoken and one recieves it not
then they can no longer cliam to be ignorant but rather they have heard
TRUTH and WILLFULLY REJECT IT .
Many will be damned , for WHEN HE CALLED they did not answer
When HE had sent his own unto them and they heard the words of Truth
THEY CHOSE to remain in a lie .
This is why many will wail even in christendom .
And as often they say and cry but what about those who never heard the gospel
or what if a gay man cliamed jesus and yet continued in his sin .
BUT what they cannot cliam is , OH WE NE VER HEARD IT
WE never heard one trying to correct our sins and etc either.
WHEN a sheep hears it recieves TRUTH .
And when the SPIRIT convicts them of sin they will repent and obey .
Not so with the ungodly who know not the scriptures NOR POWER OF GOD
but have rather sat under men who tickled their ears and twisted
the KNOWN TRUTH into wh at it never meant .
THEY will not be able to cliam THEY DID NOT KNOW .
THEY can only claim , YEAH WE KNEW BUT WE CHOSE NOT TOO

 

[Lizbeth]

exact

exactly sister . And inclusivism DOES just that . It clearly states a fat lie sister .
What most have no idea about is , this is just nothing more than the creation of a religoin
MEANT to merge all religoins under the idea we all serving the same GOD .
BELIEF IN JESUS was always in the way of their creation .
Because if one has TO T RULY BELIEVE ON JESUS
then that just made v oid ALL other religoins WHO DO NOT call upon HIS NAME in TRUTH .
The one thing that literally brought death upon man
was the lie that said SURELY YE SHALL NOT DIE if you eat of that tree .
And now the lie to keep them trapped in the bondage of sin and death is
OH its okay IF YE BELEIVE NOT ON JESUS CHRIST .
Man messed it all up in that garden . THEN years later GOD would send the SON
to redeem man , to bring man out from the bondage of sin and of death .
And yet again the serpent hollers , SURELY
they will not perish if they believe not . Surely they can all pick up their own crosses
and walk righteously even if they beleive not .
Yet as i have said before , HOW RIGHTEOUS IS IT to call GOD A LIAR . How holy is that .
All of it is but a delusion to believe a lie . THE LIE of anti christ .
WHO is a liar but he who denies JESUS is THE CHRIST , HE is anti christ .
HE who believes NOT the testimony that GOD g ave of the SON calls GOD a liar .
SO guess what anyone who says or even implies that its not necessary to have to BELEIVE ON JESUS
really saying to all . THAT IT IS OKAY TO CALL GOD A LIAR , hey just pick up your own crosses
and PROVE YE CAN DO THIS yourself . NOT gonna bode well for those at all .

Amen. Unfortunately believing that people can be saved by their own righteousness is the thin edge of the wedge of becoming friends with the world...being unequally yoked with unbelievers.

 

[Episkopos]

How well and clearly you are demonstrating that you don't understand FAITH, so no wonder you are denigrating and mocking it.

What I am denigrating are beliefs and religious opinions based on speculative hubris. What I'm saying about that it that this is sowing to the flesh. Only corruption can result.

So as you say...you don't know what faith is.

God calleth those things which be not as though they are.

God calls things into existence that didn't exist...or else He sees things that others don't see. But He NEVER sees things to be opposite of what they are. You are doing that. And not surprisingly, you are not God. But you think you know how God thinks. And you are just wrong about that.

And this idea that you already have something you don't have. Well, the foolishness of that cannot be overstated. I say, see where that leads you.

You are reading the bible through a religiously puffed up ego. And only ego-driven religionists will think what you are saying is anything but corrupt.

And faith is the evidence of things not yet seen, the substance of things hoped for.

You are misreading the text again. Evidence means there is proof. Look up the word evidence in the dictionary. You would have faith to be based on naming and claiming. As in...I don't believe in the gun that just went off in my hand (Lyric from Bono).

Or else...whatever I do bad is me...but God can't see that...because anything I do that's good is Jesus. Meanwhile everything is corrupted.

Selah. But it appears the Lord is hiding this understanding from you and only revealing it to little children.

Well, this is obvious that you won't understand faith in a corrupted and self-seeking endeavour. God hides the truth from such.

One needs to have the Holy Spirit and faith to be able to receive and grasp these things.

And if you did then you would be able to grasp basic things like honesty. But you haven't so you can't.

 

[Wrangler]

We are at a place where men declare it mean and heartless to tell the truth.

Yes, I recommend No More Christian Nice Guy, where kindly telling the truth in power and love is subordinated to being nice, which weakly strives to not offend anybody.

The narrow road Jesus spoke about; the devil has us coming and going - being insensitive OR overly sensitive. Avoiding hurting people’s feelings is NOT the highest good.