Pretrib fallacies

[WPM]

The rapture is shown in Revelation 14:4-16 (Jesus descended to a cloud). The purpose is to remove believers from the judgements about to befall the land.

It is explained in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And *the dead in Christ will rise first.* Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up *together with them in the clouds* to meet the Lord *in the air;* and so shall we always be with the Lord."

There has always been tribulation. The rapture is prior to the *great* tribulation (Matthew 24:21).

It's in the Book!

So, is there also a rapture in Revelation 11:12, as you previously claimed?

 

[WPM]

The rapture is prior to the *great* tribulation (Matthew 24:21).

Matthew 24:21 makes no mention of a rapture 1st. Where is it?

It is explained in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And *the dead in Christ will rise first.* Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up *together with them in the clouds* to meet the Lord *in the air;* and so shall we always be with the Lord."

Where in 1 Thessalonians 4 does it show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming? Where does it even show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period?

 

[CrowCross]

So, that means God must do our believing for us?
Hows that?

Believing is a gift given to us...
Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

What you say does make some people feel ultra-humble.
But it is a bad witness to those with common sense.

Faith is what we choose to believe.

God gives us what we are to believe, which becomes our faith when we believe.

Here it is...

​

So then faith comes by hearing, ​

and hearing by the word of God. ​

​

Romans 10:17

The use of 'hearing' means like when someone tells us something we need to know, and we tell them...

"I hear you, brother." (I comprehend.)

It does not mean simply hearing words being said.

.......

Yes, faith comes by hearing. Not all people have the ears to hear.
Lydia had to have her heart opened by God to hear what Paul was saying. (Acts 16:14)

 

[GeneZ]

Believing is a gift given to us...
Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Most today do not know what "works" meant back then.

Works meant doing prescribed deeds, as presented by religious men, as the means to win the approval of God.

That is why Jesus, who was being seen as a rabbi, often heard this question.

Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” Luke 18:18

The Jews had become conditioned by their corrupt religious leaders to seek works to be done to secure salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us....

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; ​

it is the gift of God, not of works (plural=religious system), lest anyone should boast. ​

Note: It says "works." Plural.

Works was a religious system of things to do to win God's approval for salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say?... Not any single work. But it says "works" (meaning the corrupt religious system).

In contrast to the corrupt system...
Jesus said that there is one work that God prescribes that will get us saved!

One work!

Here!

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

Just one sole work saves.
Not by works.

To simply believe in Jesus.

"For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”​

​

Just believe!

​

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. ​

He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”​

​

They replied,"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your ​

household.” Acts 16:29-31​

Note!
He asked what he must do!
It is something we must do.



........

​

 

[CrowCross]

Most today do not know what "works" meant back then.

Works meant doing prescribed deeds, as presented by religious men, as the means to win the approval of God.

That is why Jesus, who was being seen as a rabbi, often heard this question.

Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” Luke 18:18

The Jews had become conditioned by their corrupt religious leaders to seek works to be done to secure salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us....

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; ​

it is the gift of God, not of works (plural=religious system), lest anyone should boast. ​

Note: It says "works." Plural.

Works was a religious system of things to do to win God's approval for salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say?... Not any single work. But it says "works" (meaning the corrupt religious system).

In contrast to the corrupt system...
Jesus said that there is one work that God prescribes that will get us saved!

One work!

Here!

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

Just one sole work saves.
Not by works.

To simply believe in Jesus.

"For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”​

​

Just believe!

​

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. ​

He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”​

​

They replied,"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your ​

household.” Acts 16:29-31​

Note!
He asked what he must do!
It is something we must do.



........

​

I was hoping you would comment on verse 8. In fact when I posted the response I was thinking about leaving verse 9 out.

There was also Lydia having her heart opened.

 

[William Barton]

Jesus says in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly for the lost. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.” In His reply, Christ confirmed, what the disciples already seem to have rightly comprehended, in their questioning, that His next Coming is His last and only future coming and that it ushers in “the end of the world (or age)”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

Thus, the second coming of the Lord shall come in like manner, verse 39 confirms, “so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.”

Believers are taken in the rapture ("we will be caught up," 1Thessalonians

Jesus says in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the fle

This answers that question...

bible verses about the earth being a sphere.

The question is whether the early peoples knew the earth is spherical, and lMO the answer is no.

The webpage you reference does not make a valid proof. There is no conceivable way people could have known.

 

[William Barton]

This answers that question...

bible verses about the earth being a sphere.

It cites "circle" and claims that equates to "sphere," which is incorrect geometry.

 

[GeneZ]

I was hoping you would comment on verse 8. In fact when I posted the response I was thinking about leaving verse 9 out.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. Ephesians 2:8​

Grace is God's supernatural power to enable believers to not walk in the flesh, to make us able to walk in the Spirit.

But for the one being saved?

Grace is God's power to suppress the flesh (the home of our depravity) to make souls free to decide what they want to believe
concerning the Gospel. Without grace doing its work, no one could believe and be saved.

For the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. ​

For these are opposed to one another so that the things you may want, ​

these things you may not do." Galatians 5:17​

......

 

[WPM]

Believers are taken in the rapture ("we will be caught up," 1Thessalonians



The question is whether the early peoples knew the earth is spherical, and lMO the answer is no.

The webpage you reference does not make a valid proof. There is no conceivable way people could have known.

More avoidance.

Where in Matthew 24:21 does it show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming?

Where in 1 Thessalonians 4 does it show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming? Where does it even show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period?

Is there also a rapture in Revelation 11:12, as you previously claimed?

 

[CrowCross]

Grace is God's power to suppress the flesh (the home of our depravity) to make souls free to decide what they want to believe
concerning the Gospel. Without grace doing its work, no one could believe and be saved.

With out Grace....God stepping in....no one would be saved.

Salvation is 100% God and 0 % man.

 

[GeneZ]

With out Grace....God stepping in....no one would be saved.

Salvation is 100% God and 0 % man.

Man does not save himself.
Man does something that reveals to God that God must save him.

 

[CrowCross]

Man does something that reveals to God that God must save him.

???????

I think God knows the wages of sin is death.