Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[CrowCross]

At least that was better than the doctrine of demons that all the sins we willfully commit in the past, present and future are forgiven for the rest of our lives.

For a Christian...that is indeed true. As a christian I have been washed by the blood of Christ, nailed all of my sins to the cross with Him....That is, all of my sins past, present and future have been imputed to Christ Jesus and His righteousness has been imputed to me.

 

[Episkopos]

You didn't even address my "analogy".

Christians are forgiven of all of their sins...all of them....yet still have a sin nature.
Does this mean we should continue to sin? No. As christians should we strive not to sin? yes.

Have you heard of the cross of Christ? The power of the cross takes away the sin nature so that a man can walk as Jesus walked...without sin.

Christians will receive a glorified body at the resurrection/rapture event of 1 Thes 4. and 1 Cor 15.
Just as Christ Jesus has a physical body so shall His bride....Your post didn't address what you called "my analogy".

Really????

We are given the Holy Spirit as we are born again.

Most people who get a sample of grace do NOTHING with it...or they try improving on that deposit by human effort.....anything but go to God to get (buy) the FULL measure of grace that makes people OVERCOMERS in Christ.

There is probably more unbelief in the churches today than outside of it.

If you ask a passerby on the street if it's possible for a man of God to stop sinning...they will agree more than if you ask a seminary student. People are religiously conditioned into an ideology that denies grace...the power of God.

But God says His grace is sufficient. Even the smallest amount of grace is enough to overcome sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The bible says...all have sinned (past tense). But modern (un)believers ignore all the other verses that talk about how evil ONGOING sin is.

your right it is evil..

thats why only grace will get us to heaven.

So then it's on the (un)believers to find a verse that says...ALL WILL SIN. (future tense). It doesn't exist. So that should silence the unbelief. But it doesn't because of dishonesty...stacking up even more sins on each other making a person worse and worse in God's eyes. Adding sin to sin as Isaiah says.
The very beginning of an attitude that God accepts is honesty.

But it does exist

John said if we say we have no sin we are decieved, and there is no truth in us

John included himself
John spoke in present tense. not past tense.
in other words. at any moment at any time, if you or I claim we have no sin, we are decieved.

so hey, you want to be decieved, feel free..

I will keep looking to God

But that kind of honesty is lacking in (un)believers...because it exposes the unbelief held by people who want to be justified by Christ IN their sins.

Actually it exposes people who think they are justified by the law. in how they act. and in doing so rejecting the cross of christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For a Christian...that is indeed true. As a christian I have been washed by the blood of Christ, nailed all of my sins to the cross with Him....That is, all of my sins past, present and future have been imputed to Christ Jesus and His righteousness has been imputed to me.

Amen, Just like he did to abraham in Gen 15.

Adam did not become sinless after this, poor abraham had many of his sins after this exposed for all the world to see.

 

[Episkopos]

For a Christian...that is indeed true. As a christian I have been washed by the blood of Christ, nailed all of my sins to the cross with Him....That is, all of my sins past, present and future have been imputed to Christ Jesus and His righteousness has been imputed to me.

This is as false as can be. It is the invented ideology of a Luther....the heretic.

Your sins are imputed to you and no other. You are not seen by God to be as righteous as He is. You are just a sinner who is made a lot worse because of your naming and claiming. You are poor naked wretched and blind. Listen to Jesus. Don't pretend.

Rather, you need to surrender your life to Christ and seek to enter into His kingdom. You need to be converted from your evil ways to God's way.

 

[CrowCross]

Although John does not say what sin-unto-death means by giving an example but I am inclined to believe he meant spiritual / eternal death.

When a christian is saved...they are saved. Saved from what you have identified as "spiritual / eternal death." As a christian at the moment we are born again we are given eternal life. Not the possibility of eternal life but ...eternal life.
You can't lose this eternal life...as by definition it's, eternal. If you have eternal life and lose it then it was never eternal.

I would say the sin unto death is a physical death.

 

[CrowCross]

This is as false as can be. It is the invented ideology of a Luther....the heretic.

Your sins are imputed to you and no other. You are not seen by God to be as righteous as He is. You are just a sinner who is made a lot worse because of your naming and claiming. You are poor naked wretched and blind. Listen to Jesus. Don't pretend.

Rather, you need to surrender your life to Christ and seek to enter into His kingdom. You need to be converted from your evil ways to God's way.

I would say God invented it...not Luther.
Perhaps Luther figured it out like you need to figure it out....but it seems as if Luther simply read the bible. What are you reading?

2 Cor 5:21 God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Episkopos]

When a christian is saved...they are saved. Saved from what you have identified as "spiritual / eternal death." As a christian at the moment we are born again we are given eternal life. Not the possibility of eternal life but ...eternal life.
You can't lose this eternal life...as by definition it's, eternal. If you have eternal life and lose it then it was never eternal.

I would say the sin unto death is a physical death.

This is not biblical doctrine.

1. You must endure to the end to be saved. (according to Jesus) A man must finish the race or be disqualified.There is no consolation prize for somebody who turns back.

2. Initial salvation is only a sample of grace. That's why you don't understand the gospel yet. You don't know the power of grace yet. All you know is the sample. And the sample is NOT the power over sin, but a sample of what IS the power over sin.

3. You need to be crucified in the outer man to know God and be where He is. You need to have your sin nature in remission to walk in the Spirit and experience eternal life.

4. God has to accept you into the Beloved as you surrender ALL in a total sacrifice of all you have and are. From there He crucifies your outer man sin nature in order to elevate your inner man into His presence and power.

5. As long as you claim falsely to have eternal life then you already have your reward here and you forfeit eternal life as a good ending in the future. Instead, be honest, recognize that you are still lost in your sins...and turn to God for HIS power and life.

 

[Episkopos]

I would say God invented it...not Luther.
Perhaps Luther figured it out like you need to figure it out....but it seems as if Luther simply read the bible. What are you reading?

The bible. No logical person is going to think that Luther figured out the truth after 1500 years of church history. Luther was a frustrated monk who didn't have any connection to God. Frustrated by God's silence he re-invented doctrine to include his own lack of acceptance into the kingdom...which paved the way for the pretend version of Christianity adopted by Protestantism.

2 Cor 5:21 God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

That's the one corrupted verse that destroys all other verse ...for the deceived ones.

The Greek word GINOMAI means "to do or FULFILL" So the verse should read....that we might FULFILL (or DO) the righteousness of God in Him. Thy will be done (ginomai) on earth as it is in heaven.

The other more popular translation, that makes no logical sense, comes from the translators having an ideological bent that skews the bible narrative to justify sinners who harbour unbelief.

 

[CrowCross]

This is not biblical doctrine.

1. You must endure to the end to be saved. (according to Jesus) A man must finish the race or be disqualified.There is no consolation prize for somebody who turns back.

Endure what?
To the end of what?
To be saved from what?

......the context of that verse is surrounded by the period of the tribulation of Revelation.
You have presented it out of context. I've noticed the Mormons do the same thing you do with the verse to support a works based faith.

2. Initial salvation is only a sample of grace. That's why you don't understand the gospel yet. You don't know the power of grace yet. All you know is the sample. And the sample is NOT the power over sin, but a sample of what IS the power over sin.

Are you trying to express your view of sanctification?

3. You need to be crucified in the outer man to know God and be where He is. You need to have your sin nature in remission to walk in the Spirit and experience eternal life.

No, it's not the remission of your sin nature that allows you to walk in the Spirit and experience eternal life but rather the Spirit that allows you to walk with Him and in doing so causes the sanctification of a person.

4. God has to accept you into the Beloved as you surrender ALL in a total sacrifice of all you have and are. From there He crucifies your outer man sin nature in order to elevate your inner man into His presence and power.

So, it's what I do...that gains me eternal life? Is this what I hear you saying?

5. As long as you claim falsely to have eternal life then you already have your reward here and you forfeit eternal life as a good ending in the future. Instead, be honest, recognize that you are still lost in your sins...and turn to God for HIS power and life.

Can you support point 5 with scripture? I would imagine you'll leave out John 3:16 when you do.

 

[CrowCross]

The bible. No logical person is going to think that Luther figured out the truth after 1500 years of church history. Luther was a frustrated monk who didn't have any connection to God. Frustrated by God's silence he re-invented doctrine to include his own lack of acceptance into the kingdom...which paved the way for the pretend version of Christianity adopted by Protestantism.

That's the one corrupted verse that destroys all other verse ...for the deceived ones.

The Greek word GINOMAI means "to do or FULFILL" So the verse should read....that we might FULFILL (or DO) the righteousness of God in Him. Thy will be done (ginomai) on earth as it is in heaven.

The other more popular translation, that makes no logical sense, comes from the translators having an ideological bent that skews the bible narrative to justify sinners who harbour unbelief.

I checked out the word....you seem to be in error.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

if you think you have reached sinless perfection in this lifetime

John says your are decieved
You have stunted your growth. because when you do sin (and you will) you will never admit you have sinned.. and continue in it.

What you are saying and believing is what will stunt your growth. You believe you are still a sinner. Therefore, "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

I KNOW I've been freed from sin, and I reckon myself freed from sin, otherwise, I would sin like those who believe they sin.

Consider this verse in Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (not the only one) 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Romans 6: 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Romans 7:5-6 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 John 3:4-9 "4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Jesus was CONCEIVED with the seed of the Father, thus He could not sin. We who are born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him.
You've been taught things that do not coincide with the Truth that can set you free. John 8:34-36 "Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What you are saying and believing is what will stunt your growth. You believe you are still a sinner. Therefore, "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

I actually try not to worry about it. and go on seeking after the things of the spirit and following the law of love.

I just refuse to prove myself as decieved thinking I have no sin.

if you want to be deceived by thinking you have arrived. and are perfect by your deeds and actions. well thats on you

 

[CrowCross]

It seems as if Paul had a problem with continued sin...Paul puts it this way:

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Certainly not! But in order that sin might be exposed as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law.23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b

24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Personally, I've never heard a pastor use the term "sinless perfection." But whenever I have taught that Jesus said He takes away our sin, I get WARNINGS that I'm teaching "sinless perfection." Which denominations teach against sinless perfection? I know one pastor who does, but are there more? I have some of that pastors books for research on what not to teach, and I swear when I open them, demons seem to be flying off the pages. There are many forum members who also teach against "sinless perfection." Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Also, in Revelation 22:11 look to see which category you are in, because there is a popular teaching about the body that says we will not stop sinning until after we die and receive our new bodies." Not according to this: "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Therefore, when you die, nothing changes. That doctrine about freedom from sin only when we receive new bodies is a doctrine of demons, because demons want you to keep sinning so you can receive the same punishment as they will be getting. They must like the company.

Both Paul and Peter taught we are dead to sin. Romans 6:5-7, 22; 1 Peter 2:24. John taught we cannot sin, 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18. John has also been misquoted with 1 John 1:8 which contradicts 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9 that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Those who want to justify their sin twist these scriptures backwards and believe 1 John 1:8 over 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9. Look at 1 John 2:4 if you want to know what lie 1 John 1:8 is really saying, 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 1 is written with a Semitic writing style. Verse 5 through 10 is a contrast between Light vs. Darkness. 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are all unsaved darkness. 1 John 1:9 is how to become a born again Christian ONCE, not over and over as you are a slave to sin. It is the same as Peter's Acts 2:38 "REPENT, ... and you will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I teach that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

What Jesus does as the Author of our faith is He takes away the worst type of sin (sins unto death) out of our sin nature, leaving it now clean of evil desires, John 15:3. And He does this instantaneously when He baptizes us with fire according to John the Baptist. This sinless state is called righteousness and is what 1 John 3 is all about.

What Jesus does as the Finisher of our faith takes a long time, not instantaneously. At the end of this process is when His work is complete, Phil. 1:6, and we are then perfect, the other name for holy. The process has to do with maturing each fruit of the Spirit and is found in 2 Peter 1:5-11. "5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To me "never stumble" means perfection, but it is a long time coming from when we were first made sinless of sins unto death. This is why I never put sinless and perfection together as "sinless perfection." On the narrow path toward salvation, sinlessness is at the beginning and perfection is at the end. Then and only then is there "sinless perfection" when the two are complete. Committing sins due to immature fruit are not sins unto death, but sins not unto death; however, maturing fruit is necessary for salvation. Otherwise, those branches that do not bear fruit are cast into the fire. John 15:1-4, “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

See also this common passage with the first two verses before it added for context and clarity:

Matthew 7:19-23
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Hello, My Sister, how are you? We are well, Great post, Yes, I have been thinking and have begun to be in prayer about it. So I did, You Asked Me What Do I Think About It. So, Here Is My Answer, To Watch And Pray, Just To What Our High Priest Has Said, My Sister, Ok? For He Will Do/According To His Promises. Love always, Walter . I will mention it to my Wife.

 

[Nathaniel]

Where are you getting the idea that we can never stop sinning or that it's a good thing to be in a state of sin and be aware of it?

I was initially taught the same thing. That we simply sin constantly and there's no escaping it. But what is sin? In 1 John, it says sin is transgression of the law. It's specific. Its not as if you sinned the moment you woke up this morning or as you read this message.

There are so many things we do in our humanity that simply aren't sin. There's so much false theology that makes sin a default state that it defeats the hope of overcoming sin ever. I don't buy into it anymore but I had to start reading Scripture like a child again.

2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Colossians 1:28
King James Version
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 4:13
King James Version
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

2 Corinthians 13:11
King James Version
11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

The word "perfect", which seems to be the theme of your posting, does not in any way mean or even imply sinlessness.

You have quite a few misconceptions about what I believe, and unfortunately about what the bible teaches.

It's good to read the bible with a fresh outlook. As a child? Probably not so good. Part of this "perfection" that you speak of, would include the putting away of childish things.

Please dear sister, do not presume to place words in my mouth. I've never said that we cannot stop sinning, or that it is a good thing to live in a state of sin.

I stop sinning daily often dozens of times. And I do not live in a state of sin as you call it. I live in a state of grace. As do you, as you must, because apart from that grace, your flesh would rule the day every day.

Sin is indeed transgression of the law, but that's not all that it is. It's every thought, every emotion, every attitude, every action and reaction to God, and to others, that does not align 100% with God's will, as revealed through His Word and by the Holy Spirit.

If you can honestly say that you never miss that mark, then God bless you, you are an exceptional human being, not a human at all actually, more like a unicorn.

Now beware of self righteousness, self righteous judgment of those who have a different experience, and especially pride. Because anyone who has convinced themselves that they cannot sin is dangerously close, if not already guilty of these sins, and many others as well.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Sin is indeed transgression of the law, but that's not all that it is. It's every thought, every emotion, every attitude, every action and reaction to God, and to others, that does not align 100% with God's will, as revealed through His Word and by the Holy Spirit.

Are God's standard and will impossible? Are they unreasonable?

 

[Nathaniel]

Defeatism is the opposite of the power of God. Just keep telling yourself that you will always be a sinner and you will be. "For as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.

I don't mean to scare you, but I went to church for 30 years still a slave to sin. In other words, I was headed for hell. This is why Jesus said, "you must be born again of the Spirit." I wasn't. I was in a cessationist denomination based on legalism. At least that was better than the doctrine of demons that all the sins we willfully commit in the past, present and future are forgiven for the rest of our lives.

Why do you women keep suggesting, implying and repeatedly stating that those of us who do not agree with you are somehow walking around all day in a state of sinful defeatism?

The fact that you were whoring around on your husband for 30 years while still going to church doesn't scare me in the least. And I'm glad that you finally repented. But it does suggest that maybe you aren't the one to be cheering others on to perfection.

I don't mean to be unkind. I am genuinely happy that you finally stopped committing adultery. I am however, very curious as to how your husband (presuming he's still around) would respond to these claims of yours concerning this sinless life you are now living.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That's interesting! I never really thought of the sin unto death in this way. I was thinking the only sin unto death eternally, not physically, which is sin (blasphemy) against the Holy Spirit. But as I think about it how would I know if a person committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that I should not pray for them? Makes sense, thanks.

Don't start now. It has nothing to do with the death of our body. It has to do with the death of our soul.

 

[ScottA]

If I read you right, you were saying when Paul uses the word "flesh" he is only speaking of our body. That is not true. The flesh was our carnal sin nature that has been taken away by Jesus. Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, (past tense) the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Also you see the difference of before Christ and after Christ in Romans 8:8-9 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (again, the flesh is not our body.)

I just got through explaining in post #14 saying that the "body" and "flesh" was one of many analogies. But here you are speaking as if you never read what I posted.

You are also mixing things up again, first saying the body is not the flesh, but then using the biblical analogy of the flesh--which you as much as call "not true"--to explain your different and contrary ideas.

If you want to expand upon the biblical analogy--great, no problem--but then you should understand and say it correctly: That we who are in Christ and He in us, are no longer captive within our old temporal spirit, but have a new spirit within, which is the spirit of God. Which again--is biblically defined within the flesh analogy--as the "body" of Christ. Therefore, if the "body" by analogy refers to the old spirit, the new body is also spirit--but a new and different creation.