Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[1stCenturyLady]

Are God's standard and will impossible? Are they unreasonable?

If He left it up to us, yes. But if you confess that you are too weak to stop sinning, and ask for His infilling of His powerful Spirit, and as a result Jesus takes away the desire to commit sins unto death it is not impossible at all. We are not the author of our righteousness, He is. After that, as we abide in Him (the condition) He starts maturing in us the fruit of the Spirit and we bear fruit to holiness. "14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I just got through explaining in post #14 saying that the "body" and "flesh" was one of many analogies. But here you are speaking as if you never ready what I posted.

You are also mixing things up again, first saying the body is not the flesh, but then using the biblical analogy of the flesh--which you as much as call "not true"--to explain your different and contrary ideas.

If you want to expand upon the biblical analogy--great, no problem--but then you should understand and say it correctly: That we who are in Christ and He in us, are no longer captive within our old temporal spirit, but have a new spirit within, which is the spirit of God. Which again--is biblically defined within the flesh analogy--as the "body" of Christ. Therefore, if the "body" by analogy refers to the old spirit, the new body is also spirit--but a new and different creation.

Now it looks like we have another word to talk about: BODY. In Romans 6 Paul has used "body" as "the whole" like The Beatles selling their whole body of works. Here body is "catalogue."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are God's standard and will impossible? Are they unreasonable?

if Gods standard was possible in us, we would not need saved. we would have saved ourself

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Don't start now. It has nothing to do with the death of our body. It has to do with the death of our soul.

you can not see someones soul dieing

so it can not mean death of the soul.

 

[ScottA]

You didn't even address my "analogy".

Christians are forgiven of all of their sins...all of them....yet still have a sin nature.
Does this mean we should continue to sin? No. As christians should we strive not to sin? yes.

Sometime (biblically) the correct address is not what you are referring to, but is a redirect to what really matters.

But yes, "Christians are forgiven of all their sins." And yes, they "yet still have a sin nature." But those born again of the spirit of God, no, do not yet have a sin nature--they yet have an old sinful, flesh body--but also a new spiritual body within, which is a completely new and different body and creation.

Biblically then, we are counseled to bring the flesh body "into subjection" of the Spirit, lest our words be "disqualified" (1 Corinthians 9:27). In other words, if we speak what we merely "think" or "feel"--our words are void of God...even if we quote the scriptures. But this same Paul also elaborated on what he called a "war" or struggle continuing within the members of his body, between our old flesh and spirit, and our new spirit within born of God which cannot sin (of which John also wrote about).

 

[ScottA]

Christians will receive a glorified body at the resurrection/rapture event of 1 Thes 4. and 1 Cor 15.
Just as Christ Jesus has a physical body so shall His bride....Your post didn't address what you called "my analogy".

Those are the teachings of men.

1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 do not say "Christians will receive a glorified body..." On the contrary, that teaching came from the "false teachers" spoken of by Peter, who not seeing Jesus return "soon" (like He said) in the flesh (as they wrongly assumed), developed their own false doctrine of kicking all that Jesus said "must shortly take place" down the road to the distant future. Which, by the mouth of two or three, was then confirmed by Paul saying many would believe a "lie" causing "strong delusion"; as did John saying the spirit of Antichrist was "already in the world."

The truth however, is that at Pentecost, by the Holy Spirit, Christ began to return as it is written, "in the glory of the Father (meaning in spirit)", which Paul clarified would not be a mass event at the end of the age, "but each one in his own order." Which Jesus explained would be to each person spiritually, as a knock at the door "within you", saying, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

 

[ScottA]

Really????
We are given the Holy Spirit as we are born again.

Yes, and yes! Hallelujah!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

you can not see someones soul dieing

so it can not mean death of the soul.

I should have clarified it as eternal death, not physically yet.

It is true that when we become born again we go from eternal death to eternal life. But if then you apostatize and willfully fall away from Christ, you go back to eternal death and there is no more repentance available. That is not talking about people that are just church goers for years, and fall away, then come back, then fall away, then finally come to Christ seriously and finally become born again. Those first multiple repentances don't count because they were never born again of the Spirit. I'm afraid there are thousands of fake Christians out there that are Christians in name only, but are not born again of the Spirit.

 

[ScottA]

Now it looks like we have another word to talk about: BODY. In Romans 6 Paul has used "body" as "the whole" like The Beatles selling their whole body of works. Here body is "catalogue."

No...now it looks like you are dodging again, this time down Abby Road. Clever, but the point is the same--and if each different word and definition and analogy is just another dodge...then they are all just another stumbling block between you and the simple truth behind the many analogies given by God. Which is to say, that His method was for young children, often repeating by parable the same message over and over knowing that "if I have told you once I have told you a thousand times" because "their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That is a poor analogy.

To the contrary, Christians (followers of Christ) are given an invitation to live forever, passing from these bodies of flesh to the eternal spirit bodies of God through Christ, by new birth; that though the flesh dies, we shall surely live.

Therefore, a Christian is told to listen for Christ knocking (within) and to open to Him and let Him in, as that is when and how He gives us that new body and spirit (within). In other words, it is not a transformation as we imagine transformation, but is a completely new creation requiring us to move from the one to the other making the driving force within us the spirit of God rather than the natural spirit that strictly resides within the flesh that dies with the flesh.

Why are you using the word "body" for "soul". 1 Thes. 5:23 says we are made up of spirit, soul and body. The body is the outer, not the invisible inner.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No...now it looks like you are dodging again, this time down Abby Road. Clever, but the point is the same--and if each different word and definition and analogy is just another dodge...then they are all just another stumbling block between you and the simple truth behind the many analogies given by God. Which is to say, that His method was for young children, often repeating by parable the same message over and over knowing that "if I have told you once I have told you a thousand times" because "their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed."

What is Abby Road? I certainly wish you would use the correct word for things.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

interesting

James said if I even stumble and in doing so break one command on accident, I am guilty of all

My scripture says the wage of sin is death, it does not say the wages of these sins are death, but these others are ok..

James was comparing the Old Covenant law of commandments, which is all you are seeing. Read verse 12. That is the only one that is New Covenant.

"12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty." That is liberty from the desire to sin when we were born again of the Spirit and our desires from our sin nature have been cleansed, INCLUDING the nature. It is clean. Then you can walk in the Spirit, and the only sins you will commit are unintentional and just from immature fruit. But it is not us that do the maturing. That is Jesus as the Finisher of our faith. As you abide in Jesus you will discover changes in your own reactions to insults. You won't react the same way you did before, but you didn't have to strive to achieve that maturity. Jesus did it.

Immature fruit sins are NOT UNTO DEATH. Romans 6 is only about sins unto death (major mortal sins of the flesh, and they are sins unto death). To discern the difference, learn the two types of sin in the eyes of God, not the false doctrine of "sin is sin."

The most important things we have to do is first confess our weaknesses to change ourselves to become born again of the Spirit. And then to continually ABIDE IN JESUS. One thing I find that I desire is studying the Bible. I've been reading the New Testament through every night until I get sleepy. I'll add some Old Testament too from time to time. This helps keep your mind and heart on Jesus. And He will bless you with truth.

 

[ElieG12]

"Sinless perfection" is something that goes far beyond what an imperfect human can achieve on their own—especially without undergoing purely biological changes.

Have you ever reflected on the direct connection between the imperfect anatomy of Adam’s descendants and how that anatomy relates to our own imperfect, sin-prone nature?

Consider a few simple examples: a person with high cholesterol and high blood pressure tends to get angry more easily than someone without those health issues. They struggle more with self-control, become agitated more quickly, and are far more prone to sins stemming from human anger than others. No matter how hard they try to avoid behaving that way, their health condition ensures their behavior constantly gravitates toward the very thing they cannot resolve on their own: anger.

Young people are full of energy and naturally curious. What do they do with all that energy when no one teaches them how to channel it properly? What do they do with that curiosity about things they perceive as "adult" matters—things they believe they can only experience once they "mature"? They do not know how to handle these internal drives, so many end up doing things that displease God. Since this world is governed by a spirit that opposes God and makes the gratification of any desire seem appealing, young people lose their way within it. They believe they are "mature," when in reality, they have surrendered to slavery to sin.

Can a person attain "sinless perfection" without the world itself changing? Can anyone achieve this if human health is not first perfected? Can anyone reach that state without education? Can any of this be accomplished before Christ’s thousand-year reign, when heavenly priests will lead humanity to the perfection they once lost?

 

[Episkopos]

"Sinless perfection" is something that goes far beyond what an imperfect human can achieve on their own—especially without undergoing purely biological changes.

Have you ever reflected on the direct connection between the imperfect anatomy of Adam’s descendants and how that anatomy relates to our own imperfect, sin-prone nature?

Consider a few simple examples: a person with high cholesterol and high blood pressure tends to get angry more easily than someone without those health issues. They struggle more with self-control, become agitated more quickly, and are far more prone to sins stemming from human anger than others. No matter how hard they try to avoid behaving that way, their health condition ensures their behavior constantly gravitates toward the very thing they cannot resolve on their own: anger.

Young people are full of energy and naturally curious. What do they do with all that energy when no one teaches them how to channel it properly? What do they do with that curiosity about things they perceive as "adult" matters—things they believe they can only experience once they "mature"? They do not know how to handle these internal drives, so many end up doing things that displease God. Since this world is governed by a spirit that opposes God and makes the gratification of any desire seem appealing, young people lose their way within it. They believe they are "mature," when in reality, they have surrendered to slavery to sin.

Can a person attain "sinless perfection" without the world itself changing? Can anyone achieve this if human health is not first perfected? Can anyone reach that state without education? Can any of this be accomplished before Christ’s thousand-year reign, when heavenly priests will lead humanity to the perfection they once lost?

Being perfect in Christ is not about being a biological superman. Jesus was frail like us. He had a mortal body just like us. He was so human that nobody could accept that he was anything other. But there was another dimension to Jesus that no one could see. Just like the saint of today.

Putting on the perfection of Christ makes us AWARE as Jesus was when He walked on earth. It gives us what we need when we need it. It gives us the power over sin continually by the keeping power of God. The POWER of the cross that separates us from this world also allows us to be translated into the spiritual realm of the kingdom of God...to be KNOWN of Him. And that we might know Him and the POWER of His resurrection...and be found IN Him. In Him is no sin.

 

[ElieG12]

Being perfect in Christ is not about being a biological superman. Jesus was frail like us. He had a mortal body just like us. He was so human that nobody could accept that he was anything other. But there was another dimension to Jesus that no one could see. Just like the saint of today.

Putting on the perfection of Christ makes us AWARE as Jesus was when He walked on earth. It gives us what we need when we need it. It gives us the power over sin continually by the keeping power of God. The POWER of the cross that separates us from this world also allows us to be translated into the spiritual realm of the kingdom of God...to be KNOWN of Him. And that we might know Him and the POWER of His resurrection...and be found IN Him. In Him is no sin.

"Biological superman"? Who is talking about superman.

This is what God said after the Flood:

Gen. 8:21 And Jehovah began to smell a pleasing aroma. So Jehovah said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground on man’s account, for the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again will I strike down every living thing as I have done.

Jesus said:

Matt. 28:18 ... “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Did you read anything in my post? You quote it, yet you say nothing about it. You talk about some "Superman" figure as if what the Bible says regarding salvation and health for all nations were science fiction. Your reaction to my post is strange.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Putting on the perfection of Christ makes us AWARE as Jesus was when He walked on earth.

How do we put on the perfection of Christ?

 

[Nathaniel]

Are God's standard and will impossible? Are they unreasonable?

No sister, His standards are not impossible, as Christ so clearly exhibited. Neither are they unreasonable or even all that difficult, as Paul declared when He said "His commandments are not burdensome." Or "grievous" as other translations state.

Christ was completely human and completely God, but while of the seed of Adam, he did not carry Adams sin nature, or in other words, He was not born with original sin. The Son of Man, or Son of Adam was His favorite title for Himself. He is also called the last Adam. He carried Adams genes, but not his fallen nature, as do we. He was also filled with the Holy Spirit from Jordan all the way to Calvary. Most of us would be blessed just to walk in the Spirit all the way to church and back.

I'm not trying to steal your joy, or accuse you of any sin. Only to warn you against this foolishness. We have a new nature, a new heart, a new mind and we are crucified with Christ, seated with Him in heavenly places etc. But sadly, we have this new nature in an earthly temple called the flesh.

Christ was the only Son of Adam who's earthly body would not see corruption, because it could not. We are not so fortunate. When our bodies give out our Spirits will rise to be one with God's Spirit, but our corrupted flesh will rot in the ground.

Of the world, the flesh and the devil, our greatest enemy is by far the flesh, which is why it needs to be nailed to the cross daily.

"Those who are in Christ cannot sin"
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves."
Same book, same author, two seemingly different messages. But there is no inconsistency here, and no contradiction.

 

[ElieG12]

How do we put on the perfection of Christ?

Many people do not realize what it means for post-Adamic human flesh to be corrupt. "Corrupt" means it lost the perfect state it possessed when God created it and declared it "good," along with the rest of His creation.

Why did God remove man from Eden after he sinned? Because that place was perfect—intended for perfect beings, for a perfect couple who had everything they needed to continue living in health.

Why did "natural" death come about after the sin of our first human parents? Many Christians do not know. It is not merely a "spiritual" matter; it is also a physical condition passed down to offspring, much like traits inherited genetically from parents to children. No one can escape it, which is why no human being can avoid aging and eventually dying. NO ONE ESCAPES IT; why? Because we all inherit sin and death from Adam and Eve.

If "sinless perfection" were possible, then eternal life could be attained without waiting for the Kingdom of Christ. Yet, it is evident that no one can evade old age or death. Has any religious figure ever managed to do so? It is logical, then, to conclude that achieving "sinless perfection" while we remain imperfect is a fantasy. Who invented it? Perhaps some machine that knows nothing of sickness, aging, or death—one unable to see what actually happens to humanity in real life... or perhaps a religious figure detached from reality, who has read so much that he no longer has any idea what he is saying, abandoning common sense for delusions of enlightenment...

Or what do *you* say regarding why someone might fail to realize that "sinless perfection" cannot be achieved within the imperfect human condition?

 

[Episkopos]

How do we put on the perfection of Christ?

It is by translation..by grace through faith. God has to approve your elevation. Same as Enoch in the OT...but spiritual not physical.


"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Heb 11:5

Now people won't believe this...but read this...

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:13

Now people will say that is just "positional" and based only on the imagination. But was Enoch just imagining his translation????

I can attest to this power and translation...being caught up into Zion in the higher walk in the presence of God.

 

[ElieG12]

The internet is full of fantasies and speculations not based on accurate biblical knowledge... People stir up empty arguments that help no one practice anything good related to Jesus Christ or look forward to anything real that God has promised.

No one can live forever on their own, because no one can cleanse themselves of sin by their own efforts. People do not stop getting sick, aging, and dying just because they wish it so; what kind of fantasy is that?

To know the truth about the human condition, one need only observe reality with one's own eyes: what real-life Christian ever attained "sinless perfection"? Do you know of any? Did they not age or die? Do they never get sick?