The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[TribulationSigns]

It is your position, in light of Matthew 24:22, that there is not a single believer still alive on the earth when Christ returns after great tribulation? Verse 22 that I brought up says these days are cut short for the sake of the elect, thus meaning believers. Otherwise, believers would go extinct in the earth.

I agree with your assessment. Matthew 24:22 clearly indicates that God's elect will still be alive on earth during the Great Tribulation. Otherwise, there would be no reason for Christ to shorten those days for their sake.

Christ said, "But for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." This demonstrates God's preservation of His people through that terrible period, so that some will remain alive until His coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17), in order to fulfill rapture prophecy.

The Great Tribulation does not eliminate every living believer. God preserves His elect while He judges his unfaithful congergation until Christ returns to gather them on the last day.

 

[Sel@h]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV) 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
" By the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives, unto death".

In other words they got martyred

When Gods word lists 4 or 6 verses saying no saint survives the trib, and you disagree, what is going on there?

Hello. I understand your point; I just disagree with the idea that no saint survives. While martyrdom is a reality for many, the Scripture doesn't suggest a 100% casualty rate for believers.

To me, the focus is more on our faithfulness than our survival. If the choice is between dying for the Lord or staying alive and losing my salvation, I would choose the former every time—eternal life and the rewards of the Kingdom are what truly matter. We also see the Bible speak of "overcomers" and specifically mentions those who are still alive when Jesus returns at the seventh trump. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 makes this very clear when it speaks of those who "are alive and remain" to be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV) 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Sel@h]

Meaning the Jewish harvest of rev 14.

So obvious it is like a billboard in your front yard.

There is a crossroads to your doctrine.
Your doctrine has no clue of Paul's prophecy concerning the covenant Jews.

....which is why your doctrine makes the 144,000 something besides the vivid description, BY GOD, of who they actually are.

You should ask yourself why your teachers meddle with, and change a book that is forbidden to change.

Yes the pesky 144,000 .
They really are not who God says they are....correct

Who do you say the 144,000 are?

Here they are:
Revelation 14:1-5 (NKJV) 1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

John looked and saw Jesus (when He returns) standing on Mount Zion. And there are 144,000 with Him. Hey, we saw that number before in Rev. 7:2-4. Remember there were 12,000 out of each of the tribes of Israel who were "sealed" with the Word of God in their foreheads just before the 4 Winds were let loose and the final events of this earth age commenced.
The qualifier in this verse, "having His and His Father's name written in their foreheads" lets us know that these are the same 144,000.

Revelation 7:2-4 (NKJV) 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:

The 144,000 made it through the great tribulation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

John looked and saw Jesus (when He returns) standing on Mount Zion. And there are 144,000 with Him. Hey, we saw that number before in Rev. 7:2-4. Remember there were 12,000 out of each of the tribes of Israel who were "sealed" with the Word of God in their foreheads just before the 4 Winds were let loose and the final events of this earth age commenced.
The qualifier in this verse, "having His and His Father's name written in their foreheads" lets us know that these are the same 144,000.

Who are the 144,000? Are they literal a144,000 Jewish men? Or the symbolic number for ALL believers from righteous Abel, to Zecharias, to those in our day? That is the question.

The 144,000 made it through the great tribulation.

John says to the Elder in the vision, Sir, you know! And the Elder begins to tell John who they are. God wants the Church to know who these are, and so He has the vision unfold so that the elder is a witness to Revelation of the great multitude. He declares they are those which came out of great tribulation. Those who come out of Great tribulation, are the saints, the ones persecuted for Christ's name sake.

2nd Timothy 3:12

• "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

Revelation 2:10

• "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Revelation 2:22

• "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

When Christ speaks of the falling away of the Church He speaks of a time of great tribulation when Christians should not go after false prophets and false Christs.

Matthew 24:21

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

What great tribulation? Since the 144,000 symbolically represents all believers (aka the great mulititutes) from Abel to last Elect, and they have gone through the same tribulation becasue of Christ, and near the second advent, that same tribulation will be GREATER than it has ever been throughout history. But we all the children of the tribes of Israel will persevere becasue if we be Christ's, we cannot fail, for we overcome or prevail in Him.

So no, 144,000 is not literal Jews in Israel that premillennialists believe.

 

[ewq1938]

No he doesn't.

7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

That's the wrong passage.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


That's the second coming and rapture.


2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ when those events happen is NOT at hand which means close or could happen at any moment (the any moment doctrine is false according to Paul)


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That same day of the coming and rapture gathering WILL NOT COME until a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed which means Pretrib rapture is impossible.

Also take note it is no coincidence that Pretrib thinks the Apostasy Paul is talking about is the Pretrib rapture.