The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[TribulationSigns]

It is your position, in light of Matthew 24:22, that there is not a single believer still alive on the earth when Christ returns after great tribulation? Verse 22 that I brought up says these days are cut short for the sake of the elect, thus meaning believers. Otherwise, believers would go extinct in the earth.

I agree with your assessment. Matthew 24:22 clearly indicates that God's elect will still be alive on earth during the Great Tribulation. Otherwise, there would be no reason for Christ to shorten those days for their sake.

Christ said, "But for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." This demonstrates God's preservation of His people through that terrible period, so that some will remain alive until His coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17), in order to fulfill rapture prophecy.

The Great Tribulation does not eliminate every living believer. God preserves His elect while He judges his unfaithful congergation until Christ returns to gather them on the last day.

 

[Sel@h]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV) 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
" By the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives, unto death".

In other words they got martyred

When Gods word lists 4 or 6 verses saying no saint survives the trib, and you disagree, what is going on there?

Hello. I understand your point; I just disagree with the idea that no saint survives. While martyrdom is a reality for many, the Scripture doesn't suggest a 100% casualty rate for believers.

To me, the focus is more on our faithfulness than our survival. If the choice is between dying for the Lord or staying alive and losing my salvation, I would choose the former every time—eternal life and the rewards of the Kingdom are what truly matter. We also see the Bible speak of "overcomers" and specifically mentions those who are still alive when Jesus returns at the seventh trump. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 makes this very clear when it speaks of those who "are alive and remain" to be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV) 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Sel@h]

Meaning the Jewish harvest of rev 14.

So obvious it is like a billboard in your front yard.

There is a crossroads to your doctrine.
Your doctrine has no clue of Paul's prophecy concerning the covenant Jews.

....which is why your doctrine makes the 144,000 something besides the vivid description, BY GOD, of who they actually are.

You should ask yourself why your teachers meddle with, and change a book that is forbidden to change.

Yes the pesky 144,000 .
They really are not who God says they are....correct

Who do you say the 144,000 are?

Here they are:
Revelation 14:1-5 (NKJV) 1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

John looked and saw Jesus (when He returns) standing on Mount Zion. And there are 144,000 with Him. Hey, we saw that number before in Rev. 7:2-4. Remember there were 12,000 out of each of the tribes of Israel who were "sealed" with the Word of God in their foreheads just before the 4 Winds were let loose and the final events of this earth age commenced.
The qualifier in this verse, "having His and His Father's name written in their foreheads" lets us know that these are the same 144,000.

Revelation 7:2-4 (NKJV) 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:

The 144,000 made it through the great tribulation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

John looked and saw Jesus (when He returns) standing on Mount Zion. And there are 144,000 with Him. Hey, we saw that number before in Rev. 7:2-4. Remember there were 12,000 out of each of the tribes of Israel who were "sealed" with the Word of God in their foreheads just before the 4 Winds were let loose and the final events of this earth age commenced.
The qualifier in this verse, "having His and His Father's name written in their foreheads" lets us know that these are the same 144,000.

Who are the 144,000? Are they literal a144,000 Jewish men? Or the symbolic number for ALL believers from righteous Abel, to Zecharias, to those in our day? That is the question.

The 144,000 made it through the great tribulation.

John says to the Elder in the vision, Sir, you know! And the Elder begins to tell John who they are. God wants the Church to know who these are, and so He has the vision unfold so that the elder is a witness to Revelation of the great multitude. He declares they are those which came out of great tribulation. Those who come out of Great tribulation, are the saints, the ones persecuted for Christ's name sake.

2nd Timothy 3:12

• "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

Revelation 2:10

• "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Revelation 2:22

• "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

When Christ speaks of the falling away of the Church He speaks of a time of great tribulation when Christians should not go after false prophets and false Christs.

Matthew 24:21

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

What great tribulation? Since the 144,000 symbolically represents all believers (aka the great mulititutes) from Abel to last Elect, and they have gone through the same tribulation becasue of Christ, and near the second advent, that same tribulation will be GREATER than it has ever been throughout history. But we all the children of the tribes of Israel will persevere becasue if we be Christ's, we cannot fail, for we overcome or prevail in Him.

So no, 144,000 is not literal Jews in Israel that premillennialists believe.

 

[ewq1938]

No he doesn't.

7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

That's the wrong passage.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


That's the second coming and rapture.


2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ when those events happen is NOT at hand which means close or could happen at any moment (the any moment doctrine is false according to Paul)


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That same day of the coming and rapture gathering WILL NOT COME until a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed which means Pretrib rapture is impossible.

Also take note it is no coincidence that Pretrib thinks the Apostasy Paul is talking about is the Pretrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Who do you say the 144,000 are?

Here they are:
Revelation 14:1-5 (NKJV) 1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

John looked and saw Jesus (when He returns) standing on Mount Zion. And there are 144,000 with Him. Hey, we saw that number before in Rev. 7:2-4. Remember there were 12,000 out of each of the tribes of Israel who were "sealed" with the Word of God in their foreheads just before the 4 Winds were let loose and the final events of this earth age commenced.
The qualifier in this verse, "having His and His Father's name written in their foreheads" lets us know that these are the same 144,000.

Revelation 7:2-4 (NKJV) 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:

The 144,000 made it through the great tribulation.

I never said they didn't.
I have never believed they won't make it through


They are ethnic Jews with protection not offered the church.
They are in heaven at the end of the trb( mid 7 yr trib) and prewrath.
Were they martyred or raptured?

That really hurts the postrib doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That's the wrong passage.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


That's the second coming and rapture.


2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ when those events happen is NOT at hand which means close or could happen at any moment (the any moment doctrine is false according to Paul)


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That same day of the coming and rapture gathering WILL NOT COME until a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed which means Pretrib rapture is impossible.

Also take note it is no coincidence that Pretrib thinks the Apostasy Paul is talking about is the Pretrib rapture.

No we don't.
You don't know our doctrine.
Paul is 100% right.
1) the Apostasy is in place as we see now.
2) The AC revealed ( NOT IN POWER....REVEALED)....THEN THE NEXT DAY IS THE RAPTURE.

YES Paul has laid out the sequence of the pretrib rapture.

BTW, THERE ARE NO POSTRIB RAPTURE VERSES.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Hello. I understand your point; I just disagree with the idea that no saint survives. While martyrdom is a reality for many, the Scripture doesn't suggest a 100% casualty rate for believers.

To me, the focus is more on our faithfulness than our survival. If the choice is between dying for the Lord or staying alive and losing my salvation, I would choose the former every time—eternal life and the rewards of the Kingdom are what truly matter. We also see the Bible speak of "overcomers" and specifically mentions those who are still alive when Jesus returns at the seventh trump. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 makes this very clear when it speaks of those who "are alive and remain" to be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV) 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev 13 says the AC overcomes the saints.
It says power is given to him.
To refuse the mark is to die.
This ties in to the innunumerable number that are in heaven. It even says they came out of the tribulation period.
So we see billions of martyrs with dirty robes in heaven during the tribulation.

This all goes back to 2 things
1) the times of the gentiles completed.
Which is the end of the church age and then enters Jacob's trouble, which is appointed to the Jewish Covenant-israel.The 7 yr trib.
2) Paul's prophecy in romans, chapters nine through eleven where he says israel is cut off for a season and then grafted back in.

The church age ends. Which is the bride of Christ depicted in Ruth and mat 25.
The dealing with the Jews begins. The tribulation is the plow that goes through israel to prepare for the harvest in Rev 14.
Israel is the wayward wife.
Read it in Hosea.
Gomer is bought back in the end.

 

[shepherdsword]

BTW, THERE ARE NO POSTRIB RAPTURE VERSES.

ALL of the second return verses are post trib. We don't have to do somersaults or resort to Jewish marriage myths to prove that Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet in Rev 11 (the same as the last trump of 1Cor 15) because the scriptures implicitly state it. The pre trib doctrine is the Mcdonald's happy meal of eschatology. It's a mythical false doctrine that the Laodicean western church has swallowed.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Who do you say the 144,000 are?

Here they are:
Revelation 14:1-5 (NKJV) 1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

John looked and saw Jesus (when He returns) standing on Mount Zion. And there are 144,000 with Him. Hey, we saw that number before in Rev. 7:2-4. Remember there were 12,000 out of each of the tribes of Israel who were "sealed" with the Word of God in their foreheads just before the 4 Winds were let loose and the final events of this earth age commenced.
The qualifier in this verse, "having His and His Father's name written in their foreheads" lets us know that these are the same 144,000.

Revelation 7:2-4 (NKJV) 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:

The 144,000 made it through the great tribulation.

BTW, take a look at WHAT the 144,000 are.
They are firstfruits.
Who is the firstfruits of the church?

Spoiler alert.
It is Jesus, not 144,000 Jews.

The 144,000 are firstfruit ethnic Jews .
Firstfruits of the JEWISH GATHERING IN rev 14 ;vs 14 and 15.
So that is a separate gathering, that , once again,is an insurmountable hurdle to any hope of a postrib rapture.

Ask yourself why the postrib doctrine changes all that.
It is appalling.

 

[rebuilder 454]

ALL of the second return verses are post trib. We don't have to do somersaults or resort to Jewish marriage myths to prove that Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet in Rev 11 (the same as the last trump of 1Cor 15) because the scriptures implicitly state it. The pre trib doctrine is the Mcdonald's happy meal of eschatology. It's a mythical false doctrine that the Laodicean western church has swallowed.

Post for us a verse

You think commentary proves something?
All you guys get those one liners and put downs from the same workbook

No verses.
Not even one as you demonstrated.

 

[shepherdsword]

Post for us a verse

You think commentary proves something?
All you guys get those one liners and put downs from the same workbook

No verses.
Not even one as you demonstrated.

Let's look at what happens at the 7th trumpet:
Rv 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth

The "last" Trump has to be the 7th as there are no more trumps after it

1 Co 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It's clear the glorified bodies are handed out at the LAST trump..the same as the 7th in Rev 11

Now, post a single verse that says there is a pre-trib rapture....there are ZERO. They all refer to the 2nd coming.
I know you won't receive it. If I thought you would change I would keep up the discussion. I held the pre-trib position for many years...until I was shown the truth. No one could show me the truth until I was ready.

I will say this...it would be nice if you were right. I just don't think the scriptures support it.

Blessings

 

[CrowCross]

That's the wrong passage.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


That's the second coming and rapture.


2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ when those events happen is NOT at hand which means close or could happen at any moment (the any moment doctrine is false according to Paul)


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That same day of the coming and rapture gathering WILL NOT COME until a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed which means Pretrib rapture is impossible.

Also take note it is no coincidence that Pretrib thinks the Apostasy Paul is talking about is the Pretrib rapture.

Do you know about the letter they got from the false prophets?

 

[CrowCross]

ALL of the second return verses are post trib. We don't have to do somersaults or resort to Jewish marriage myths to prove that Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet in Rev 11 (the same as the last trump of 1Cor 15) because the scriptures implicitly state it. The pre trib doctrine is the Mcdonald's happy meal of eschatology. It's a mythical false doctrine that the Laodicean western church has swallowed.

Yikes....you're saying Jesus is going to spit the pre-trib Laodicean western church rapture believers out of His mouth?

 

[shepherdsword]

Yikes....you're saying Jesus is going to spit the pre-trib Laodicean western church rapture believers out of His mouth?

There is still a chance for this:
Rv 3:18-19
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let's look at what happens at the 7th trumpet:
Rv 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth

The "last" Trump has to be the 7th as there are no more trumps after it

1 Co 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It's clear the glorified bodies are handed out at the LAST trump..the same as the 7th in Rev 11

Now, post a single verse that says there is a pre-trib rapture....there are ZERO. They all refer to the 2nd coming.
I know you won't receive it. If I though you would change I would keep up the discussion. I held the pre-trib position for many years...until I was shown the truth. No one could show me the truth until I was ready.

I will say this...it would be nice if you were right. I just don't think the scriptures support it.

Blessings

1) the last trump is blown every year at the feast of trumpets.
2) thinking there can only be a limited dynamic to "trumps, trumpets and last trump" is a poor foundation when Jesus himself taught a pretrib rapture.
3) when Jesus appeared to John on patmos, his voice was like a trumpet when he spoke.
Was that the last trump, or the trump, or the 7th trumpet?

Used to be pretrib ?
What verses did you omit, and what verses "showed you the light"?

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is still a chance for this:
Rv 3:18-19
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

The pretrib rapture parable of the virgins also tells those carnal believers to "go buy"

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let's look at what happens at the 7th trumpet:
Rv 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth

The "last" Trump has to be the 7th as there are no more trumps after it

1 Co 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It's clear the glorified bodies are handed out at the LAST trump..the same as the 7th in Rev 11

Now, post a single verse that says there is a pre-trib rapture....there are ZERO. They all refer to the 2nd coming.
I know you won't receive it. If I thought you would change I would keep up the discussion. I held the pre-trib position for many years...until I was shown the truth. No one could show me the truth until I was ready.

I will say this...it would be nice if you were right. I just don't think the scriptures support it.

Blessings

BTW. The second coming on horses, has no rapture, nor a resurrection.

So your trumpet smoking gun needs further investigation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let's look at what happens at the 7th trumpet:
Rv 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth

The "last" Trump has to be the 7th as there are no more trumps after it

1 Co 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It's clear the glorified bodies are handed out at the LAST trump..the same as the 7th in Rev 11

Now, post a single verse that says there is a pre-trib rapture....there are ZERO. They all refer to the 2nd coming.
I know you won't receive it. If I thought you would change I would keep up the discussion. I held the pre-trib position for many years...until I was shown the truth. No one could show me the truth until I was ready.

I will say this...it would be nice if you were right. I just don't think the scriptures support it.

Blessings

QUOTE
"Now, post a single verse that says there is a pre-trib rapture....there are ZERO. They all refer to the 2nd coming."

Actually I have many in contrast to your zero.
1) Acts 1
2) Mat 24
3) Mat 25
4) 1 thes 4
5) Rev 14:14-15
6) Rev 13
7) Rev 3 the escape verse by Jesus.
8) Luke 17
9) The last super dialog
10) The other escape verse... "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the Earth and stand before the son of man."

Now on top of all that, your doctrine demands that the 144,000 MUST BE REFRAMED, And the Jewish gathering of Romans chapters 9-11, be reframed.

You need all that cast off the table over a trumpet verse.

That is a ton of omission and bible changes you need to become a postribber.( trumpet centered)

You were in the right camp previous, but were not centered in the bible personally.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let's look at what happens at the 7th trumpet:
Rv 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth

The "last" Trump has to be the 7th as there are no more trumps after it

1 Co 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It's clear the glorified bodies are handed out at the LAST trump..the same as the 7th in Rev 11

Now, post a single verse that says there is a pre-trib rapture....there are ZERO. They all refer to the 2nd coming.
I know you won't receive it. If I thought you would change I would keep up the discussion. I held the pre-trib position for many years...until I was shown the truth. No one could show me the truth until I was ready.

I will say this...it would be nice if you were right. I just don't think the scriptures support it.

Blessings

QUOTE
" I held the pre-trib position for many years...until I was shown the truth. No one could show me the truth until I was ready."

Take a look at rev 14:14-15.
Look at the impossibility of it to fit your doctrine.
A jewish gathering, DURING THE 7yr TRIB.
It is Not postrib.
It is Not at the white horses.

Now remember what postribbs are taught, (that there is only one coming).

That hurdle is impossible to reconcile.