The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

[Davidpt]

It makes me wonder what the post tribbers think normal is.

This "normal" that the post tribbers present certainly isn't what jesus speaks of when He mentioned the social economical condition that will be related to the days of non or Lot.

I can't speak for all posttribbers, but there is nothing normal about the lives of saints during the 42 month reign. But the opposite is true in regard to those worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign. Life is good for them. If you don't believe me then prove it with Revelation 13. Show with Revelation 13 that anyone worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign is experiencing hell on earth at the time. I didn't say the same is true after it's 42 month reign. But I'm talking about during it's reign, thus during great tribulation.

Does any of the following sound like that they are experiencing hell on earth at the time?

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast

that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[Davidpt]

He already said he wrote it and then had AI rewrite it.

I can only imagine the key points could be restated in a couple of sentences each. I've been in this debate for decades, I've held various views at different times, I'm no stranger to this.

Much love!

Some members on this forum have complained in the past that I'm hard to follow at times. Probably because of my lack of good writing skills being the main reason why. Therefore, I'm using AI as a tool, not as a source of my theology. If AI can't be used as a source for better writing, then no source, as in non AI, should be allowed either. Fair is fair, right?

 

[marks]

Some members on this forum have complained in the past that I'm hard to follow at times. Probably because of my lack of good writing skills being the main reason why. Therefore, I'm using AI as a tool, not as a source of my theology. If AI can't be used as a source for better writing, then no source, as in non AI, should be allowed either. Fair is fair, right?

Did you have AI rewrite this post?

Just wondering.

 

[Davidpt]

Uh, no, there will indeed be scrambling at the rapture as JESUS vividly illustrated in the 10 virgin parable.
The writer of that article you posted is a lightweight.
A dreamer with endless commentary that is easily debunked.

I give it an F.

IOW, you are calling me a lightweight then giving me a F on top of that? I have to wonder if some of you have reading comprehension? Read the first paragraph in the OP. On a side note: hmmmm....maybe poor reading comprehension might explain how some can read the very same texts in the Bible then conclude Pretrib?

 

[Davidpt]

Did you have AI rewrite this post?

Just wondering.

I only used the AI to rewrite my thoughts pertaining to post #1 and #2. Everything else is just me. I hope you are not thinking something absurd. That because I sometimes use an AI to articulate my thoughts better for me, that this means everything I post I'm using an AI to better articulate my thoughts. So no, I don't use AIs to rewrite every single thing I post.

 

[shepherdsword]

IOW, you are calling me a lightweight then giving me a F on top of that? I have to wonder if some of you have reading comprehension? Read the first paragraph in the OP. On a side note: hmmmm....maybe poor reading comprehension might explain how some can read the very same texts in the Bible then conclude Pretrib?

Very few pick up a bible and read a pre-trib rapture. Most of them were indoctrinated with it as I was. I went to my town's 1st Baptist as a child every sunday and a week of bible camp every summer. This was in the early 70s while the Jesus movement was going on. Pre-trib was everywhere. I became post trib by studying the bible myself.

 

[marks]

I only used the AI to rewrite my thoughts pertaining to post #1 and #2. Everything else is just me. I hope you are not thinking something absurd. That because I sometimes use an AI to articulate my thoughts better for me, that this means everything I post I'm using an AI to better articulate my thoughts. So no, I don't use AIs to rewrite every single thing I post.

No, actually I thought that you had not used AI on that post, and I wanted to tell you I found it to be perfectly clear. You seem to be well spoken, at least to me.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not the wording of the passage that is determinate of your view, as you've "reinterpreted those parts that don't fit the GWTJ, because you don't accept that there is a dispensational change between the end of the times of the gentiles, and the 70th week of Daniel, the "time of Jacob's trouble". So therefore the sheep goats judgment won't make any sense as written, that the gentiles are judged by their works, and the Jews are gathered separately. Joel shows this same prophecy in ch 3, Israel returned to their land, then the nations gathered and judged.

Let's talk about this. So, you apparently think that only Gentiles are involved in the judgment described in Matthew 25:31-46 and they are judged by their works at that time. Do you not think that Jews will be judged by their works as well? That is what scripture teaches.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Do you think what is described in the above verses does not include Jews? Do you not think any Jews will have to bow before Christ to give an account of themselves and what they "hath done, whether it be good or bad"? Of course they will. All people, including all Jews and Gentiles will bow before Jesus Christ to give an account of themselves and what they have done. That is exactly what Matthew 25:31-46 portrays. There is no basis for seeing separate gathering and judgments for Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'll wait.

Let's just start with the question I asked in post #47. I'd like to know if you relate Matthew 13:47-50 to Matthew 25:41 or to Revelation 20:15 (I believe they all refer to the same event) and why.

 

[marks]

Let's talk about this. So, you apparently think that only Gentiles are involved in the judgment described in Matthew 25:31-46 and they are judged by their works at that time. Do you not think that Jews will be judged by their works as well? That is what scripture teaches.

What does the passage say? That after Jesus returns and takes his throne, having already gathered Israel to it's land, then the nations are gathered, separated according to their works, some welcomed into the kingdom, some sent to eternal fire.

First we need to get straight what this passage does and does not say, and whether you believe what it says or not. Again, Joel prophesied the very same thing:

Joel 3:1-2 (KJV)
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-33 (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And of course this part goes on to show Jesus dividing the wicked from the righteous by their works, which is not what happens with the church. For the church what matters is whether we are baptized into Christ.

In my estimation we need to be able to account for these things without just claiming it all really means something else.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did Jesus teach on the Rapture of the Church? I'd say no, He did not, and that the Church, and it's distinctions, were revealed through Paul.

He taught about the gathering of the elect that will occur at His second coming. Scripture teaches that the elect are those who belong to Christ (Romans 8:31-34). So, I strongly disagree that Jesus didn't teach on the rapture. He didn't give added details like Paul did in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, but He referenced the same gathering of the elect and same future coming of Christ that Paul wrote about. Paul gave the added details that at that time the dead in Christ will be resurrected and together with those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What does the passage say? That after Jesus returns and takes his throne, having already gathered Israel to it's land,

First, you ask what the passage says and then proceed to say something that the passage doesn't say. It says nothing about Jesus "having already gathered Israel to its land". If you're going to ask what the passage says, then stick to what the passage says. I'm okay with bringing other scripture into the discussion to see the whole picture, but please don't act like the passage itself says anything about Jesus having gathered Israel to its land at that point. It does not.

then the nations are gathered, separated according to their works, some welcomed into the kingdom, some sent to eternal fire.

First we need to get straight what this passage does and does not say, and whether you believe what it says or not.

You complain about the way I talk, but then you say rude things like this. Of course I believe what it says! Don't ever question that! I believe what it says as I understand it every bit as much as you do.

Again, Joel prophesied the very same thing:

Joel 3:1-2 (KJV)
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Where does that say anything about anyone being judged in the sense of either being given eternal life or sentenced to everlasting punishment in everlasting fire?

Notice it says "in those days". What days? What time period is that talking about? Peter quotes Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:16-21 and applies it to the day of Pentecost and the time following up until the day the Lord comes again. So, Joel 3 is not talking about the same thing as Matthew 25:31-46.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-33 (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And of course this part goes on to show Jesus dividing the wicked from the righteous by their works, which is not what happens with the church.

Our works reflect whether we belong to Christ or not. How is that any different than what is written here....

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You wouldn't try to say that this verse doesn't relate to the church, yet it speaks of everyone in the church receiving "he things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.". So, there is no basis for saying that Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't apply to the church. The sheep are those who belong to Christ (John 10). The sheep represent the church.

For the church what matters is whether we are baptized into Christ.

Of course, but you're not understanding that verses like Matthew 25:31-46 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 that speak of being judged by works does not mean the determining factor in receiving eternal life or not for the sheep or the goats is based on works. Eternal life is never based on works. We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. But, those verses speak of works because our works reflect the kind of faith we have or the lack thereof. Jesus said people are known by their fruit and James said that faith without works is dead.

In my estimation we need to be able to account for these things without just claiming it all really means something else.

It seems that you are not accounting for the fact that all people, including those in the church will be judged by our works. Not in the sense that anyone can earn eternal life by their works, but in the sense that our works reflect our faith or lack thereof and reflect who we belong to.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my view the sheep and goats judgment determines who in the body of Christ inherit the kingdom of God and who in the body of Christ are cast out, thus not allowed to inherit. Exactly what Jesus was just speaking about in the end of Matthew 24, then in ch 25 leading up to this judgment. The sheep are meaning Christ's profitable servants. The goats are meaning Christ's unprofitable servants This happens right before the beginning of the millennium and is not meaning Revelation 20:12-15.

Scripture does not teach that unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire (everlasting fire) on more than one occasion as Premils like yourself believe. Jesus taught that the wicked, which includes both unprofitable servants and all other unbelievers, will be cast into the fire at the same time. That agrees with Revelation 20:11-15 which says that those whose names are not written in the book of life, which would include the unprofitable servants you mentioned, will be cast into the fire at the same time

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Do you deny that unprofitable servants are included among the wicked? Jesus said that those who are not with Him are against Him (Matthew 12:30), so the wicked included all unbelievers, including unprofitable servants.

Maybe some disagree that we are supposed to interpret things in context. But I'm not one that disagrees.

I agree with that and still disagree with your doctrine, so it has nothing to do with one person believing we should interpret things in context and one who doesn't.

 

[marks]

He taught about the gathering of the elect that will occur at His second coming.

If we go by what these words expressed at the time they were spoken, it was common knowledge that Israel was the chosen nation, and all the other nations were not, and were the gentiles. So when Jesus prophesied the chosen would be gathered, the chosen people would see that this was the same as Ezekiel and Joel and others had prophesied, that God would return a scattered Israel back to it's land.

When Jesus prophesied the nations would then be gathered, it's the same thing. This was also prophesied, and would have been clearly understood in Jesus' day.

Meanwhile, Paul attested that he had revealed the church, and various matters concerning it, from being musterion, something not known nor understood until it is revealed.

Consider an example,

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

We realize that "prevent" had a different meaning than it does now, and we know to keep this in mind as we read the passage.

Shouldn't we do the same in this case also? No Israelite would consider the elect, the chosen, to include Gentiles. And there is no need for them to be included, since Jesus likewise addressed what will await "the nations".

Including the church in the regathering of Israel to it's land goes against a sound hermenuetic (the use of the words when they were used), it violates Paul's assertion of revelation, it runs contrary to the many parallel prophecies, and it creates internal inconsistencies within the discourse itself.

These are my primary reasons for concluding that the elect gathered here is Israel being regathered,

Ezekiel 39:27-29 (KJV)
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It seems that you are not accounting for the fact that all people, including those in the church will be judged by our works.

These are judge wicked or righteous by their works. The church is righteous being in Christ. These are very different.

Much love!

 

[Davidpt]

I don't like AI stuff. What are the key points?

It's not AI stuff if one is simply using it for a tool to write more coherently. Haven't you ever used something as a tool before? For example, complicated math. Have you never used a calculator before? Are calculators bad if you use them as a tool to simplify complex math equations? Apply that same logic to AI if one is using it as a tool to make some things in life easier for others reading, such as better writing. Imagine saying one doesn't like math stuff if one uses a calculator to do complex math with. No one would be that shallow.

 

[marks]

Notice it says "in those days". What days? What time period is that talking about?

In these days:

Joel 2:30 - 3:2 (KJV)
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

 

[marks]

It's not AI stuff if one is simply using it for a tool to write more coherently. Haven't you ever used something as a tool before? For example, complicated math. Have you never usd a calculator before? Are calculators bad if you use them as a tool to simplify complex math equations? Apply that same logic to AI if one is using it as a tool to make some things in life easier for others reading, such as better writing. Imagine saying one doesn't like math stuff if one uses a calculator to do complex math with.

Hey, it's just how I feel about it. I think AI is an evil being visited upon humanity and will cause a great deal of harm. I prefer to stay as far from it as I am able.

Seriously, I don't see any problems with your communication. No matter, whatever you choose is up to you of course.

Much love!

 

[CrowCross]

How exactly do you interpret the following passage....

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

If people are saying "peace and safety" just before being destroyed, wouldn't you agree that people are acting as if things are normal while they are saying "peace and safety"? Do you believe when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night that the rapture will occur at that point? In Matthew 24:35-39 He talked about the coming of the Son of Man occurring at the end of the time that He compared to the days of Noah before the flood and He indicated that it would be unexpected (no one knows the day or hour). Do you believe that Matthew 24:35-39 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 are speaking of the same event?

Why are they saying "peace and safety"?

Who is saying it?

I'm still waiting for you to explain what the social economic conditions at the end of the tribulation will look like.

 

[marks]

Our works reflect whether we belong to Christ or not. How is that any different than what is written here....

Meanwhile in the sheep goat judgment, the works are not attributed to that one's belonging to Christ, they are given as determinative of their being righteous or wicked.

Matthew 25:34-36 (KJV)
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

"Inherit . . . because I was hungry, and you gave me food"

Much love!