Stop Believing the "Any Moment" Myth

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ewq1938

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Paul uses apostasia to show a falling away from God to the antichrist/false god. Pretrib claims the falling away is the Pretrib rapture which poses an obviously dangerous theology.




It's a nice try, congratulations, and welcome to the forum, but I don't think you can use this to disprove the pre-tribulation Rapture theory. I still say it's happening now, we don't need a rebuilt temple to find the Man of Sin. And we don't need to go through a time of wrath, the great winepress. Paul's primary point here is not "a plea for believers not to believe anyone who claims that the day of Christ is imminent or that He could return at any moment, the primary point at that time was to tell Ancient Israel in those days that the Day of the Lord had not yet come. I also would not say we "are in a very dangerous position if we believe Pre Trib. Paul wasn't warning Christians at the end of time, he was warning people in the 1st century not to believe "letters" that had been written claiming that the Day of the Lord had come already.

Some during those days thought people were saying it came already, and they missed the boat. Paul was reassuring them not to worry, they won't miss it, the dead in Christ will rise first. We can't use 2 Thessalonians to pin down the detail of the timing for the Rapture in our time. Paul is using broad brush strokes which could be applicable from the 1950's to now. Like the Leave it to Beaver times, to the transvestite Sodomite sex change days we are in now. The falling away happened already, we wait now for the Man of Sin to be revealed. He has been here for many a long year, he just needs to be outed. I like the sharpie marker I get from Daniel and Revelation.

The Falling Away, The Apostasy.

The first time, the only other time the NT used that controversial word was by Luke, a travelling companion of Paul. Luke was talking about falling away from the Torah, the falling away from Moses. Which really was falling away from what God said to do.

Acts 21:21: The Old Time Jews confront Paul with a report that he has been teaching Jewish believers living among the Gentiles to perform an apostasia ("an apostasy" or "forsaking") from Moses—specifically telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to Jewish customs.

Paul was usually drawing from some other place in the Bible. The "man" of sin was Isaiah 14's "man", is this the "man" that made the nations tremble? Paul's "man" was the little horn from Daniel 8 that rises up to the place of HIS Sanctuary. Because that's where he took his seat, in the place of the real Sanctuary, the True Tent, the place of His Sanctuary or Matthew 23's "chair" of Moses. Paul was just drawing from Isaiah 14, Daniel 8 and Matthew 23.

The Chair of Moses

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God​
"so that he sets himself up in God's temple,​
"So he will seat himself in the temple of God,​

He will "seat himself".

In Matthew 23, Jesus said:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat​
"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses"​

They have "seated themselves".

Paul was an Old Time Jew Pharisee before Jesus knocked him down and blinded him on his way to Damascus. So as soon as Jesus said: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses", Paul knew exactly what was being talked about. Moses had a literal chair in the temple he sat in and read the Torah to the Children of Israel. Moses sat in that seat and told people what God said for them to do.

At the end of time, just before Christ comes, another man, the Man of sin, will also figuratively take that same seat of Divine Authority and tell people what they can legally do, which previously had been only in God's Domain.

The important thing to note here is that the Pharisees "seated themselves". Nobody told them to sit in that seat, they TOOK it. They just came in and took the seat and assumed to dictate God's Word without it being authorized. Same as the Man of Sin in our end times. If the Old Time Jews would have recognized Jesus, they should have surrendered that seat to it's rightful Owner, but that's another story. We're trying not to miss the time of OUR Visitation.

So Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God. Moses WAS appointed by God, the "seat" was his. He was long gone when Jesus said this so the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over Moses' job or his "seat", figuratively, which was Moses' place of authority in the Temple of God.

Both the Pre Tribulation Rapture People, and the Post Tribulation Rapture People can both be correct today, because there's different kinds of tribulation, personal and corporate level tribulation. I think a bunch of the things have been happening, and are happening now.

The Man of Sin is here, he has taken his seat of authority, and has been dividing the land, dividing the earth for a price, for a profit. It could just be about that time for the news from the east, and from the north to trouble him. He's king of the north. So it's news happening now from his home base that is troubling him, so he goes out with great fury next to destroy many, and devote many to destruction. Trouble from the east and trouble from the north. That could happen in a week or two. No need for rebuilt temples. We might be much closer than we think. I wouldn't be banking on the Old Hal Lindsey narrative at this time.
 

Dave Watchman

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Paul uses apostasia to show a falling away from God to the antichrist/false god. Pretrib claims the falling away is the Pretrib rapture which poses an obviously dangerous theology.
I don't think so. I think you've brainwashed yourself from a lifetime of looking through the same eyes at things, and arguing with these other guys here all day. Like D and K with all the charts and pamphlets. They're brainwashed too. You need one of those felt boards the guy is talking about where you can peel off the subject matter from the velcro chart and move it around. Pull the falling away from the future, and stick it just past us now. Next is the Man of Sin REVEALED, then Christ comes to destroy him with the brightness of His coming.

Paul is using apostasia to show the Old Time Jews a long time ago they had a long way to go to the Day of the Lord and our being gathered to Him.. Before that happens we'll have legalized abortions, legalized pornography and same sex Sodomite marriage. All over most of the world. People will bring their kids to gender discovery clinics. Have sex change operations, and think it's a good thing. This is the falling away. People think it's normal.

Pretrib is trying to use those first century Pauline instructions to plan the timing of the Rapture. It can sort of work, as long as they don't get the falling away mixed up. Who said it's Christians falling away from the faith? It's actually the whole world wandering after the composite beast.

If it were Christians falling away from the Gospel, when is that happening? Charlie Kirk assasination? Or five or seven years from now? It's not. It's Lawlessness. The rebellion, when rebels have reached their limit.

It's God saying, through Moses' seat, "You must not lie down with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination.

Then the Dragon, giving his power and throne to the composite beast, legalizing the Days of Lot. The USA becoming the 21st nation on earth legalizing same sex marriage. That and all the rest of the transgressive legislation. Who can make war with it? He's called the "Lawless one" for a reason, that should have been your hint. It's Satan working through the composite beast.

We've been living through the falling away since the Ward Cleaver days, too close to it for everyone to recognize it. Like the frog in the pot of water on the way to boil. Nobody notices until they try to use public funds to transplant a womb into a transvestite man so that he can have a baby. Governments give the same rights to tranny men as women, should they pay for womb transplantation? If Paul could show this to the Old Time Jews in Thessalonica, they would have known they had a long, long time to go, they didn't miss the Rapture. Lol.

A right to gestate
In light of womb transplant technology we need to address whether or not there is a right to gestate, not whether or not the NHS should fund it – the question that has so far dominated media coverage. Finite public resources should not be invoked as a smokescreen to mask prejudices towards gender reassigned individuals who parliament has given clear rights to. If it is decided that women should be allowed womb transplants on the NHS, it follows given the legislation enacted by parliament that trans women have the same rights as their female counterparts.

 

ewq1938

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I don't think so. I think you've brainwashed yourself from a lifetime of looking through the same eyes at things, and arguing with these other guys here all day.

No, it's just a fact about the Greek word apostasia. You speak of brainwashed but you might want to investigate that a little closer to home.

apostasia is apostasy and apostates are not raptured to Christ. apostasia is not the rapture. The lake of fire isn't heaven either just in case anyone reading has those two confused as well.
 

rebuilder 454

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No, it's just a fact about the Greek word apostasia. You speak of brainwashed but you might want to investigate that a little closer to home.

apostasia is apostasy and apostates are not raptured to Christ. apostasia is not the rapture. The lake of fire isn't heaven either just in case anyone reading has those two confused as well.
It can be laid out for you 100 times and you would wind up that postribber doctrine parrot doll and replay it.

Look at that passage with a bible. No workbook.
1) that passage is overly simple.
2) it needs no spin...zero
3) it can EASILY be interpreted for either side.
4) IT IS NO SMOKING GUN , for EITHER side of the debate.
5) There is an incapacity of IQ, by some here , that can not accept, that, "apostacy" and "departure", are LITERALLY the same word. ( greek= "from standing")
6) it is AGRRED by most theologians, that it IS a departure FROM THE FAITH.
7) we are in the departure from the faith now.
8) again, some here with low IQ CAN NOT process "revealed". They have no idea what the Word means.
Nor do they care. The postribber workbook says "it means in full power".

So why do we have the postribber merry go round hamster wheel low info plan/ theory on display?

It has to be a spirit driving it.

The bible ends with the spirit and the bride calling out to heaven for Jesus to come.
COME LORD JESUS.
Postribbers mock that and ridicule it.
Yep it is a spirit operating in them.
 
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marks

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Isn’t it both? …because those who are deceived and therefore believe the lies that are spewing forth like a flood out of Satan’s mouth (“forehead”) will end up doing his work (“hands”).

The “forehead” and “hands” are metaphors.
There is nothing in the passage that I can see that makes these things metaphors, much less defining what these metaphors would mean. Can you show me these in the Bible?

Much love!
 

marks

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Matthew 7:28-29 (KJV)
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
 
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KUWN

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Someone replied to EddieM wanting to know where in the Bible it says unbelievers are redeemed. The passage EddieM cites is 2 Peter 2:1.

I searched AI and found the view of EddieM. The payment of sins (redeem) pays for all mankind's sins. Since they were paid for, something else must be the basis of man's eternal condemnation. The Missing Step below would be his answer:

AI Overview

The phrase "EddieM redeem unbeliever" points directly to arguments made by a prominent online forum user named EddieM on theological message boards like Worthy Christian Forums and Christian Chat. [1, 2]
His specific doctrinal position focuses on separating the concepts of redemption and salvation:
    • The Core Argument: EddieM argues that according to certain biblical texts (such as 2 Peter 2:1), unbelievers have already been "redeemed" by the blood of Christ. [1]
    • Redemption vs. Salvation: In his view, Christ paid the price (redeemed) for the sins of the entire world, meaning unbelievers are not eternally condemned simply for their personal sins. [1]
    • The Missing Step: He clarifies that being "redeemed" does not automatically mean an unbeliever is "saved". For salvation to take place, the individual must still personally accept the gift through faith. Without that faith, they remain unsaved despite the legal price of their redemption having been paid. [1, 2]
 

marks

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Someone replied to EddieM wanting to know where in the Bible it says unbelievers are redeemed. The passage EddieM cites is 2 Peter 2:1.

I searched AI and found the view of EddieM. The payment of sins (redeem) pays for all mankind's sins. Since they were paid for, something else must be the basis of man's eternal condemnation. The Missing Step below would be his answer:

AI Overview

The phrase "EddieM redeem unbeliever" points directly to arguments made by a prominent online forum user named EddieM on theological message boards like Worthy Christian Forums and Christian Chat. [1, 2]
His specific doctrinal position focuses on separating the concepts of redemption and salvation:
    • The Core Argument: EddieM argues that according to certain biblical texts (such as 2 Peter 2:1), unbelievers have already been "redeemed" by the blood of Christ. [1]
    • Redemption vs. Salvation: In his view, Christ paid the price (redeemed) for the sins of the entire world, meaning unbelievers are not eternally condemned simply for their personal sins. [1]
    • The Missing Step: He clarifies that being "redeemed" does not automatically mean an unbeliever is "saved". For salvation to take place, the individual must still personally accept the gift through faith. Without that faith, they remain unsaved despite the legal price of their redemption having been paid. [1, 2]
It's not sufficient to be reconciled to God by Christ's death, but you must also receive that reconciliation to benefit.

Behold the Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world. And, You must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven.

Much love!
 
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KUWN

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It's not sufficient to be reconciled to God by Christ's death, but you must also receive that reconciliation to benefit.

Behold the Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world. And, You must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven.

Much love!
Hey Marks, I think he means redeemed in the sense mentioned in 2 Pt 2:1. The price for the payment of sins applies to all mankind. And it is this payment that is the basis of the gospel presentation. I can't get over the statement Eddie makes that sins are not related to eternal condemnation. I asked Eddie and he basically said all sins have been paid for, not potentially paid for, but the payment in full of all my sins did not make me a believer. Yes, you must accept God's offer of salvation despite the payment in full of our sins.

Here is another statement he gave me has me thinking. Gen 3:13-19:

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

17 To Adam he said,
“Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you,
‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”


He said, Notice that the punishment for each sinner is only related to our time on earth, there are no eternal consequences for sin., the punishment is only good for our finite life on earth.

Finally, he adds that when a person commits a sin, that sin is imputed to Christ, not the person committing it.

2 Cor 5:
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: 18 The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
 

rebuilder 454

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It's not sufficient to be reconciled to God by Christ's death, but you must also receive that reconciliation to benefit.

Behold the Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world. And, You must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven.

Much love!
Yes.
Salvation is a gift.
A free gift.
Most reject it.
So we have redeemed vs unredeemed humanoids.