The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

[Spiritual Israelite]

QUOTE
"Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together

Verse 27 undeniably proves Christ has not come again, in any sense, prior to when these verses are meaning. Verse 27 did not happen, in any sense, prior to the beginning of great tribulation. BTW, all those coming passages submitted above, how many comings should we assume are meant? Just one in total? "

Lol.
WE SEE 3 COMINGS AS CLEAR AS DAY.

No, you see 3 comings when Jesus only referred to one future coming. How are you seeing 3 comings there?

You are using all the conjecture you can muster to convince yourself those 3 comings are irrelevant.
You are literally casting down scripture.

Your basis is clear , " how many comings should we assume are meant"?

There it is.
Your doctrine of many many assumptions.

Your doctrine is void of any exegesis. You just make all sorts of claims while doing nothing to back them up with scripture. You think that's going to convince anyone of anything? Think again.

 

[Davidpt]

You are very repetitive. You can say these things just once and that's enough. No need to repeat this nonsense. You are posting total gibberish. If you're going to make claims in relation to the beast then you need to explain how your view of the beast lines up with John saying that the beast "was" before the book was written and how one of its heads "is" at the time the book was written. That means John saying that the beast "is not" at the time the book was written does not mean the beast did not exist or wasn't active at all. You have no understanding at all of what the beast and other symbols in Revelation represent.

Your primary debating tactic is to shift the goalposts and use rhetorical deflections ("LOL," calling my points "assumptions") to avoid answering the text.


I repeat myself because you never actually answer the question.

When someone encounters an opponent who refuses to address a glaring logical flaw, the only way to maintain the integrity of the debate is to re-state the unresolved contradiction. I repeat the core problem because it remains a problem until you provide a textual solution.


I repeatedly state, "I let the text determine things," thus to force the conversation back to the link between Revelation 13 and 16.

I am trying to force you to defend your foundational premise. I recognize that if your foundational premise (parallelism) creates an impossible timeline where a punishment precedes the crime, your entire system falls apart. I repeat it to keep your feet held to the fire.


You try to control the tone of the debate by projecting absolute confidence and acting as if my arguments are meaningless or simple. I repeat my conclusions ("You have zero Scripture," "This is pure speculation") right after pointing out your timeline flaws. This is an effective way to counter your "LOL" defense. By systematically matching your dismissals with steady, unyielding repetitions of your Scriptural absence, I strip away your rhetorical high ground. I am showing you that no matter how much you laugh, the textual problem isn't going away.

I'm not being repetitive because I lack new ideas---I am being repetitive because I have trapped your timeline, and I am refusing to let you wiggle out of the trap. This is called driving home a contention.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Pretribbers typically argue that this verse proves a Pretrib rapture. I want to refute that by using the Exodus passage below in order to do so. In the passage below God didn't need to relocate the children of Israel to an area outside of this region before He could send darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

The comparison between Revelation 3:10 and Exodus 10:21-23 provides a strong, text based argument against the necessity of a Pretrib rapture. It demonstrates that God is entirely capable of protecting His people from a global or regional judgment without physically removing them from the earth.



The foundational Pretrib premise is that for God to keep the Church from the "hour of temptation" (Great Tribulation, thus the 42 month reign of the beast), He must physically remove them from the planet via the rapture.

The Exodus passage directly refutes this logic---The children of Israel were physically present in Egypt during the plagues. They were not relocated to a different country or taken up to heaven before the judgment fell.

God did not need to evacuate them to protect them. Instead, He created a supernatural division within the exact same territory---there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt----but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings(Exodus 10:22-23).

Therefore, God protects His people by exempting them from the effects of His wrath, even while they live side by side with those experiencing the judgment.



Pretribbers often stress that Revelation 3:10 applies to all the world to argue that a global trial requires a global removal. However, the Exodus parallel handles this scale dynamic perfectly----the plague of darkness covered the entire sovereign realm of Egypt (all the land of Egypt).

To the Egyptians, this was their entire known world and ecosystem being shut down.
Despite the blanket coverage of the judgment over the region, God’s protection was localized down to the very dwellings of His people.



My Exodus argument perfectly aligns with the Greek grammar of Revelation 3:10. The phrase "keep thee from" uses the Greek words tēreō (to guard/preserve) and ek (out of/from the midst of). When you look at how this same phrasing is used elsewhere, it aligns with the Exodus model of preservation rather than evacuation.

John 17:15---Jesus uses the exact same grammatical structure (tēreō ek) when praying for His disciples---I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. Jesus explicitly states that keeping them from evil does not mean taking them out of the world.

The Exodus mirror---just as Jesus prayed in John 17, and just as God executed in Exodus 10, the Church can be guarded (tēreō) out of the effects (ek) of the hour of trial without being physically removed from the theater where the trial takes place.


Revelation 3:10 promises preservation, not evacuation. Just as God did not need to relocate the children of Israel out of Egypt to save them from the terrifying, palpable darkness that fell upon the land, He does not need to remove the Church from the earth to keep them from the hour of trial. In Egypt, the judgment was local but absolute, yet the Israelites had light in their dwellings. God's method of salvation from wrath has historically been to shield His people through the storm, not to remove them from the planet before it starts.

But something to keep in mind here. Great tribulation is not God's wrath to begin with. It is satan's wrath upon the church. God's wrath begins after great tribulation. For example. Revelation 6 and the 6th seal, in relation to the the 5th seal, where we are told God's wrath is put on hold until the little season upon the earth passes first---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled--proves it Plus the 7th trumpet per Revelation 11 proves it as well.

Therefore, it is an misunderstanding in one's reading of things to associate great tribulation with that of the wrath of God. I don't expect any die hard Pretribbers to change their mind no matter what one might argue. But there could be some reading this thread that are on the fence in regard to PostTrib vs Pretrib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your primary debating tactic is to shift the goalposts and use rhetorical deflections ("LOL," calling my points "assumptions") to avoid answering the text.

There's nothing to answer. You expect me to answer according to your flawed understanding of the beast. I don't need to do that.

I repeat myself because you never actually answer the question.

Yes, I do. Just not the way you want. You expect me to go by your rules and have the same understanding of the beast, the bottomless pit and the same understanding of the 42 months and 1260 days and so on as you do. I don't. So, I don't need to play your games.

When someone encounters an opponent who refuses to address a glaring logical flaw,

What glaring logical flaw? I'm not seeing it. And I never will because the supposed glaring flaw is only according to your own flawed understanding of the beast and the timing of things in the book.

Meanwhile, you have no explanation for how all 7 vial events can occur even after Jesus has already returned at the seventh/last trumpet. Do you see all seven vial events as occurring when Jesus returns? If not, then your view that the trumpets and vials can't be parallel makes no sense because He will return at the 7th trumpet.

I repeatedly state, "I let the text determine things," thus to force the conversation back to the link between Revelation 13 and 16.

While you ignore the fact that you somehow have the 7 vial events occurring even after Jesus returns. How do you explain that?

I am trying to force you to defend your foundational premise. I recognize that if your foundational premise (parallelism) creates an impossible timeline where a punishment precedes the crime, your entire system falls apart. I repeat it to keep your feet held to the fire.

LOL. Your flawed understanding of the beast and pretty much the entire book does nothing to keep my feet held to the fire at all. You also fail to keep other scripture in mind while interpreting all of this. Your interpretations contradict other scripture and they are based on the false assumption that everything related to the beast only relates to the future.

You try to control the tone of the debate by projecting absolute confidence and acting as if my arguments are meaningless or simple.

They are meaningless to me because they are based on a completely different understanding of the beast and of the time periods in the book of Revelation than I have. You're not addressing things according to what I believe, you're trying to force me to have the same understanding of the beast/bottomless pit/42 months/etc. as you have.

I repeat my conclusions ("You have zero Scripture," "This is pure speculation") right after pointing out your timeline flaws. This is an effective way to counter your "LOL" defense. By systematically matching your dismissals with steady, unyielding repetitions of your Scriptural absence, I strip away your rhetorical high ground. I am showing you that no matter how much you laugh, the textual problem isn't going away.

You are so clearly using AI to speak for you here. This is ridiculous. How about using your own words instead of relying on AI all the time?

I'm not being repetitive because I lack new ideas---I am being repetitive because I have trapped your timeline, and I am refusing to let you wiggle out of the trap. This is called driving home a contention.

That's what AI is telling you. But, you have no need to be repetitive. It's a waste of your time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In these days:

Joel 2:30 - 3:2 (KJV)
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

How convenient for you to leave out Joel 2:28-29. The entire passage of Joel 2:28-32 refers to "the last days" which began long ago, according to Peter in Acts 2:16-21. He referred to what was going on that day of Pentecost long ago as being part of the last days that last up until the future day of the Lord comes. So, those are the days (the time period) Joel 3 is talking about. Where do you see any reference to anyone either inheriting eternal life or being cast into everlasting fire in Joel 3 like is described in Matthew 25:31-46?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These are judge wicked or righteous by their works. The church is righteous being in Christ. These are very different.

No one can be judged righteous by their works. How can you not know this? Scripture says that if someone could be saved and counted righteous and justified by works then they could boast about that (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-5). No one can save themselves. All are sinners in need of the blood of Christ to cover their sins (Romans 3:23). For someone to be able to be judged righteous and to be saved by their works would require someone to be sinless. Scripture says that being guilty of violating even one of the commandments of the law makes you guilty of them all (James 2:10). It is impossible for anyone to ever be judged righteous and saved by their works. Our works reflect whether we truly have faith or not (James 2), but they do not save us. They are the good works we do AFTER we are saved that God prepares for those who are saved (Ephesians 2:10).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Meanwhile in the sheep goat judgment, the works are not attributed to that one's belonging to Christ, they are given as determinative of their being righteous or wicked.

Matthew 25:34-36 (KJV)
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

"Inherit . . . because I was hungry, and you gave me food"

The sheep belong to Christ. That's why they are called sheep. Have you never read John 10? Jesus calls those who belong to Him His sheep. Those who belong to Him have Him as their Lord and desire to obey Him which they do by helping the needy. No one can inherit and earn eternal life by their works. That contradicts a great amount of scripture. I can't believe anyone would believe that. The works described reflect that these are true followers of Christ who obey and serve Him by doing what He wants all of us to do, which is to help the "least of these".

 

[Davidpt]

There's nothing to answer. You expect me to answer according to your flawed understanding of the beast. I don't need to do that.


Yes, I do. Just not the way you want. You expect me to go by your rules and have the same understanding of the beast, the bottomless pit and the same understanding of the 42 months and 1260 days and so on as you do. I don't. So, I don't need to play your games.


What glaring logical flaw? I'm not seeing it. And I never will because the supposed glaring flaw is only according to your own flawed understanding of the beast and the timing of things in the book.

Meanwhile, you have no explanation for how all 7 vial events can occur even after Jesus has already returned at the seventh/last trumpet. Do you see all seven vial events as occurring when Jesus returns? If not, then your view that the trumpets and vials can't be parallel makes no sense because He will return at the 7th trumpet.


While you ignore the fact that you somehow have the 7 vial events occurring even after Jesus returns. How do you explain that?


LOL. Your flawed understanding of the beast and pretty much the entire book does nothing to keep my feet held to the fire at all. You also fail to keep other scripture in mind while interpreting all of this. Your interpretations contradict other scripture and they are based on the false assumption that everything related to the beast only relates to the future.


They are meaningless to me because they are based on a completely different understanding of the beast and of the time periods in the book of Revelation than I have. You're not addressing things according to what I believe, you're trying to force me to have the same understanding of the beast/bottomless pit/42 months/etc. as you have.


You are so clearly using AI to speak for you here. This is ridiculous. How about using your own words instead of relying on AI all the time?


That's what AI is telling you. But, you have no need to be repetitive. It's a waste of your time.

You’re focusing on how I write and making a big deal out of me of using AI because you want a distraction from the actual text. I’ve already told you I’m not a great writer, but that doesn't mean my point isn't right. You can't make up your mind, can you? Awhile back you said it would be a good idea if I use an AI to express my view of things better. Now you are complaining when I do just that.

So what If I wrote out in Notepad what I was going to submit to you then used an AI to polish up for me before submitting? After all, you are the main one complaining about that I'm hard to follow at times. Then when I try and get some help with that every now and then, where someone can at least follow what I'm arguing, you then complain about that. There is no pleasing you no matter what.

You claim I'm trying to force you into my view of the beast. I’m asking you to look at your own timeline. Even if things are parallel, they still have to make sense.

Answer this one point directly---Revelation 13:5-7 says the beast gets authority to wage war with the saints and overcome them for 42 months. Revelation 16:2 says the very 1st vial of wrath is poured out on people who already have the mark of the beast and worship his image.

If the vials and trumpets are parallel------meaning the vials are happening throughout history or alongside everything else---your timeline makes no sense. You have the 1st vial punishing people for taking the mark before the beast even has his 42 month authority to force them to take it. The crime has to happen before the punishment. You can't punish people for a mark they haven't even been forced to take yet.

How does the 1st vial punish people for the mark if the vials are running parallel to the rise of the beast? Just look at Revelation 16:2 and Revelation 13 and explain how that works.

 

[marks]

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Certainly God is able to protect people during any circumstance or condition.

To me the more relevant point is that Jesus promises to "keep you out of the hour of temptation". They will not be in the "time". Which means they cannot be here at that time.

It's not in question what God is able to do. The question is, what did He say He would do?

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Pretribbers typically argue that this verse proves a Pretrib rapture. I want to refute that by using the Exodus passage below in order to do so. In the passage below God didn't need to relocate the children of Israel to an area outside of this region before He could send darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

The comparison between Revelation 3:10 and Exodus 10:21-23 provides a strong, text based argument against the necessity of a Pretrib rapture. It demonstrates that God is entirely capable of protecting His people from a global or regional judgment without physically removing them from the earth.

Al;so these scriptures:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. ie: this verse cancels out the other verse. The truth is that neither is talking about the rapture or the great tribulation.

So which is it? No tribulation or some? Pre-trib is inconsistent and misleading when they cite Rev 3:10 and not also Rev 2:10.



3. "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ was kept from falling for any of the devil's temptations. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual escape.

 

[Davidpt]

You are so clearly using AI to speak for you here. This is ridiculous. How about using your own words instead of relying on AI all the time?

According to an AI anyway.


The Reality of Your Situation

You are using AI exactly how it is meant to be used: as an equalizer. You already know your theology, you see the logical flaws in their timeline, and you know exactly where the text contradicts them. You are simply using the tool to package your own thoughts clearly because writing isn't your primary strength.
When your opponent complains about the AI, they are essentially saying, "I only want to debate you if your writing struggles make it easy for me to win." They are mad that the tool leveled the playing field.

When you use AI to structure your thoughts, people falsely assume you aren't doing any thinking at all, missing the fact that you are the one guiding the strategy and providing the core arguments.

On a different note, in regard to the 7th trumpet you asked me about. Did you not notice this, for example?

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

It clearly says 'days', as in plural. Not to mention, none of the other trumpets involve a singular day or less. They all involve an era of time. Therefore, there are plenty of days remaining when the 7th trumpet sounds in order for the vials of wrath to be unleashed during them. But you want the 7th trumpet to consist of only one day or less, in spite of that we are told it involves 'days' not a day, and in spite of none of the other trumpets only involve one day or less. And here I go repeating myself again. Oh well, it is what it is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You’re focusing on how I write and making a big deal out of me of using AI because you want a distraction from the actual text.

Wrong. It's distracting and a bit annoying when I know that the words are not coming from you. I'm okay with you using it some, but it seems like you're letting AI completely write everything for you without any of your own words. That's strange to me.

I’ve already told you I’m not a great writer, but that doesn't mean my point isn't right.

Are you sure it's your point? You made a post the other day that said something that I know you don't actually believe. You should proofread the AI output, at least, to make sure it actually reflects what you believe.

You can't make up your mind, can you? Awhile back you said it would be a good idea if I use an AI to express my view of things better. Now you are complaining when I do just that.

I didn't say you should just rely completely on AI to write everything for you. Good grief.

So what If I wrote out in Notepad what I was going to submit to you then used an AI to polish up for me before submitting?

It seems like it is doing far more than just polishing what you're saying. Nothing it says seems to be similar to things I would expect you to say. Can't you at least mix in some of your own wording of things?

After all, you are the main one complaining about that I'm hard to follow at times. Then when I try and get some help with that every now and then, where someone can at least follow what I'm arguing, you then complain about that. There is no pleasing you no matter what.

Then stop talking to me. Easy solution.

You claim I'm trying to force you into my view of the beast.

You are. You expect me to respond to your beliefs about the beast from your perspective of the beast. Why would I want to do that?

I’m asking you to look at your own timeline. Even if things are parallel, they still have to make sense.

They do. I don't see you doing anything to prove otherwise. In your mind you think you are, but I'm not seeing it. You need to explain why you still have events going on even after the day Jesus returns at the seventh/last trumpet. That makes no sense.

Answer this one point directly---Revelation 13:5-7 says the beast gets authority to wage war with the saints and overcome them for 42 months. Revelation 16:2 says the very 1st vial of wrath is poured out on people who already have the mark of the beast and worship his image.

If the vials and trumpets are parallel------meaning the vials are happening throughout history or alongside everything else---your timeline makes no sense.

Why? You keep making claims and I'm not seeing any kind of clear explanation as to why. This is a waste of time..

You have the 1st vial punishing people for taking the mark before the beast even has his 42 month authority to force them to take it.

No, I don't. You just keeping making false claims for whatever reason and then think you have proven something. This is futile. You are basing your view on the assumption that it's talking about a future 42 month period of time. That's not my understanding of the 42 months. I'm not obligated to agree with your understanding of the time periods in Revelation.

The crime has to happen before the punishment. You can't punish people for a mark they haven't even been forced to take yet.

I don't have that happening. You're once again for the millionth time wasting your time making a strawman argument.

How does the 1st vial punish people for the mark if the vials are running parallel to the rise of the beast?

The beast has been around for a long time, even before the book of Revelation was written. Can you acknowledge this or not? John said the beast "was" before the book was written. I can't get you to engage in a discussion about what the beast actually represents, so what is the point of talking about anything relating to the beast in that case? If we can't even agree on what the beast represents and when it is active and so on, what is the point of even trying to discuss these things? Our views of the beast and the time periods in Revelation are far apart, so it makes it virtually impossible for you and I to have a good discussion about anything written in the book.

Just look at Revelation 16:2 and Revelation 13 and explain how that works.

That's a rather vague comment. What exactly is it that you want me to explain? I've already told you before that I believe the 42 months figuratively represents the New Testament time period and that the beast symbolically represents the world system throughout world history with the heads representing the historical world empires and so on. So, the activities of the beast in Revelation are not just narrowed down to a 3.5 year period of time in the future as you believe. What else do you want me to tell you? Do you take everything written in Revelation 16 literally? How does that line up with other scripture? Where does other scripture say that those types of things, taken literally, would happen even after Jesus returns, which He will do at the seventh and last trumpet?

How long do you think the 7 vial events last? How can they occur after what is described in Revelation 11:15-18? I don't see you giving any explanations for any of these things, but you basically expect me to tell you what every verse in the book means. It's a difficult book to interpret. Our doctrine should come from more clear scriptures that we use to try to discern what a highly symbolic book like Revelation is saying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Certainly God is able to protect people during any circumstance or condition.

To me the more relevant point is that Jesus promises to "keep you out of the hour of temptation".

That is not what the text says. Where are you getting that from? You are changing the text to fit your beliefs. It says that Jesus would keep them (the church in Philadelphia) FROM the hour of temptation, not OUT of the hour of temptation. Why are you changing the text?

John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

In Greek the phrase "keep...from" is "tereo ek". It does not mean "keep out", it means "keep from". It's found within one other verse in scripture, which is Revelation 3:10. Jesus did not pray that His people would be taken out of the world in order to avoid evil. He prayed that God would keep/protect them from it.

They will not be in the "time". Which means they cannot be here at that time.

Nonsense. That's not what the text says.

It's not in question what God is able to do. The question is, what did He say He would do?

Not what you're saying that He said. You are changing His words.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

According to an AI anyway.


The Reality of Your Situation

You are using AI exactly how it is meant to be used: as an equalizer. You already know your theology, you see the logical flaws in their timeline, and you know exactly where the text contradicts them. You are simply using the tool to package your own thoughts clearly because writing isn't your primary strength.
When your opponent complains about the AI, they are essentially saying, "I only want to debate you if your writing struggles make it easy for me to win." They are mad that the tool leveled the playing field.

When you use AI to structure your thoughts, people falsely assume you aren't doing any thinking at all, missing the fact that you are the one guiding the strategy and providing the core arguments.

The problem with this is that your AI said something in another post of yours that was not what you believe. If you're going to use AI then don't just copy and paste what the AI outputs without proofreading the text to make sure it reflects what you believe.

On a different note, in regard to the 7th trumpet you asked me about.

Wow, you're actually going to finally answer the question? It's a minor miracle.

Did you not notice this, for example?

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

It clearly says 'days', as in plural.

That translation is misleading. Here is a better one that gives the proper indication of what the verse is saying.

Revelation 10:7 (NIV) 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

It's talking about the days leading up to the sound of the seventh trumpet. It's not saying that the seventh trumpet lasts for days. Think about it. When the last trumpet sounds Paul said that we will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:51-52). And he said the dead in Christ will be resurrected at that time. That is when Jesus will return. That should be obvious. So, what exactly are you thinking happens after that which lasts for however long. Tell me how long you think the 7 vials last? According to Paul in 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 what happens when Jesus comes and the dead in Christ are raised is that "sudden destruction" come upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape". How does that line up with your understanding of the 7 vials? Why do you seemingly not take other scripture into account when you are interpreting the book of Revelation?

Not to mention, none of the other trumpets involve a singular day or less. They all involve an era of time.

Why would "an era of time" occur after Jesus returns, the dead are raised and He destroys unbelievers? You don't seem to be looking at what it says in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Revelation 11:15-18 at the seventh/last trumpet. How can those things last for an era of time?

Therefore, there are plenty of days remaining when the 7th trumpet sounds in order for the vials of wrath to be unleashed during them.

How does this correlate with Paul saying that "sudden destruction" will come upon unbelievers when Jesus returns from which "they shall not escape"? How is a period of time "sudden"? The word "sudden" refers to something happening quickly, not over a period of time.

But you want the 7th trumpet to consist of only one day or less, in spite of that we are told it involves 'days' not a day,

We are not told that. A poor translation of the verse gives you that impression, but other text related to the seventh trumpet does not give that impression at all.

and in spite of none of the other trumpets only involve one day or less. And here I go repeating myself again. Oh well, it is what it is.

That does not prove anything. The seventh and last trumpet is climactic. It brings an end to the world as we know it. At that point "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ" (Rev 11:15). But, you say "No, the seven vials have to be poured out over a period of time first". The changing of the bodies of who knows how many believers will happen in an instant when the seventh/last trumpet sounds, but you expect me to believe that other events at that time will happen for "days"? How many days?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Al;so these scriptures:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. ie: this verse cancels out the other verse. The truth is that neither is talking about the rapture or the great tribulation.

So which is it? No tribulation or some? Pre-trib is inconsistent and misleading when they cite Rev 3:10 and not also Rev 2:10.



3. "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ was kept from falling for any of the devil's temptations. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual escape.

"Escape from prison" actually means "they endured it", inside of the prison walls...Facepalm.
Whats next, do we need to go into a hyper explaination of how "escape" really means "endure" on every escape dynamic?

IOW, now the word "escape" really does not mean "escape".
So:
"Before the flood, actually means, "After the flood"
LOT ESCAPING THE FIRE, Actually means he endured the fire.
The baby Jesus stayed, and did not escape to egypt.
The AC "Revealed" as declared in the Bible, actually means "he has been in power for years."

Talking to postribs is a definition game, nothing to do with honest exegesis.

SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

Al;so these scriptures:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. ie: this verse cancels out the other verse. The truth is that neither is talking about the rapture or the great tribulation.

So which is it? No tribulation or some? Pre-trib is inconsistent and misleading when they cite Rev 3:10 and not also Rev 2:10.



3. "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ was kept from falling for any of the devil's temptations. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual escape.

If you stretched the Bible any farther, it would snap from the stress.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Escape from prison" actually means "they endured it", inside of the prison walls...Facepalm.
Whats next, do we need to go into a hyper explaination of how "escape" really means "endure" on every escape dynamic?

IOW, now the word "escape" really does not mean "escape".
So:
"Before the flood, actually means, "After the flood"
LOT ESCAPING THE FIRE, Actually means he endured the fire.
The baby Jesus stayed, and did not escape to egypt.
The AC "Revealed" as declared in the Bible, actually means "he has been in power for years."

Talking to postribs is a definition game, nothing to do with honest exegesis.

SMH

Why would you compare "the hour of temptation" to a past event involving God's wrath (the flood of Noah's day)? Do you equate temptation with God's wrath? You are so confused. You try to compare the flood to "the hour of temptation", which makes no sense. Temptation is not God's wrath. You confuse tribulation that comes from Satan and involves temptation and deception with God's wrath. You can't get any more confused than that. You are the one creating ridiculous definitions in "a definition game", not post-tribs. Christians will endure through the hour of temptation, but then will escape God's wrath that will occur when Jesus returns (1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3). Jesus prayed that believers would be protected from evil and that they would not be taken out of the world to avoid it (John 17:15). So, the rapture will not occur before "the hour of temptation". It will occur on the day Jesus returns and just before Jesus takes vengeance on unbelievers (2 Thess 1:7-10).

 

[Davidpt]

Why would you compare "the hour of temptation" to a past event involving God's wrath (the flood of Noah's day)? Do you equate temptation with God's wrath? You are so confused. You try to compare the flood to "the hour of temptation", which makes no sense. Temptation is not God's wrath. You confuse tribulation that comes from Satan and involves temptation and deception with God's wrath. You can't get any more confused than that. You are the one creating ridiculous definitions in "a definition game", not post-tribs. Christians will endure through the hour of temptation, but then will escape God's wrath that will occur when Jesus returns (1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3). Jesus prayed that believers would be protected from evil and that they would not be taken out of the world to avoid it (John 17:15). So, the rapture will not occur before "the hour of temptation". It will occur on the day Jesus returns and just before Jesus takes vengeance on unbelievers (2 Thess 1:7-10).

I would equally argue that it is absurd to compare great tribulation(Matthew 24:21) with that of Noah's flood, that Noah's flood is the greater of the two. No it isn't. Judgment does not equal great tribulation, exactly what you are arguing with this Pretribber. The flood was judgment upon the ungodly, not great tribulation upon the ungodly. The same way the DOTL is judgment upon the ungodly, not tribulation upon the ungodly. In 2 Peter 3 Noah's flood is being compared with the DOTL and not with great tribulation instead. And besides, great tribulation involves persecution, for one thing. Per the days leading up to the flood where is there any hint that anyone was persecuting anyone at the time? We can't divorce persecution from great tribulation. That is absurd that we can.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The following is my reasoning of things over all. Except I let an AI format things for me plus rewrite my thoughts in a manner easy to follow, regardless that you might not agree with some of these conclusions or any of them. But at least you can't complain that you couldn't follow what is being proposed and meant throughout. Will have to do the OP in two posts.
-----------------------

Part 1:

It is fascinating to watch Pretribulationists completely bypass direct scripture when their timeline is backed into a corner. When presented with the undeniable textual evidence of Revelation 11 and 13, the standard response is to run away from the text, launch a diversion tactic, and throw out a "one-liner" about the "Days of Noah" or claim "that's just for the Jews."
Let’s slow down, look at the actual reasoning, and walk through the scriptures in the exact order they are written. When you harmonize Revelation 11, Revelation 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 17, the Pretrib timeline completely collapses under its own logical contradictions.

1. The Reality of "Peace and Safety" During the Tribulation

Pretribulationists vehemently claim that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 ("When they say, 'Peace and safety!' then sudden destruction comes upon them") must describe a normal, prosperous world before the 7-year tribulation begins. They argue that the Tribulation is a period of non-stop, total global chaos that would make a mindset of "peace and safety" impossible.

But the text of Revelation completely obliterates this assumption. Look at Revelation 11:8–10:

The Two Witnesses are killed by the Beast. The text explicitly states: "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

Consider the mechanics of this passage:

• The Global Euphoria: The wicked world is experiencing a global, synchronized celebration. Why? Because the tormenting plagues brought by God's prophets have stopped. The global population feels a profound sense of relief, security, and triumph. They are literally experiencing a state of "peace and safety."

• The Economic Infrastructure: If the planet had already been utterly obliterated by God's total, final wrath during the early seals and trumpets, how is the global population still operating an economy stable enough to ship gifts to one another worldwide?

• The Pretrib Dilemma: Pretribulationists place the death of the Two Witnesses right at the midpoint of the 7 years—long after their supposed rapture. Therefore, by their own timeline, a global state of "peace and safety" and merry-making occurs inside the Tribulation.

• The Sudden Destruction: Immediately after this global celebration (v. 11-19), the Two Witnesses are resurrected, a massive earthquake strikes, the 7th Trumpet sounds, and the final, catastrophic Bowl judgments of God’s actual wrath begin. This is the exact definition of "then sudden destruction comes upon them" from 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

2. The Fallacy of the "Days of Noah" Argument

When cornered on this, Pretribulationists will pivot to Matthew 24 or Luke 17 and say, "But Jesus said before the flood there is normal life, marriage, commerce, and everyday life... therefore His coming must be Pretrib!"

This argument completely backfires for two reasons:

First, Jesus explicitly establishes the chronology in Matthew 24:29-37. In verse 29, He says: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." Then, in verse 30, He says the sign of the Son of Man will appear. Only after stating this does He say in verse 37: "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Jesus does not place the days of Noah before the tribulation; He places the comparison after it.

Second, this "normal life" perfectly matches the Revelation 13 economic system. The world worshiping the Beast is buying, selling, eating, drinking, and building an empire (Rev 13:17).

For the wicked, life continues in its ungodly normalcy right up until the day the final wrath hits them, just like in the days of Noah and Lot. They are saying "peace and safety" in their wicked normalcy, completely blind to the fact that sudden destruction is coming right after the tribulation ends.

Why didn't you include Revelation 12?

 

[Davidpt]

Why didn't you include Revelation 12?

In particular, what in Revelation 12?