Had Judas lost his salvation?
or is he now sitting at the right side of Jesus??
Your 'God's Eternal Assurance' does not make sense!
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Had Judas lost his salvation?
or is he now sitting at the right side of Jesus??
Your 'God's Eternal Assurance' does not make sense!
Matthew 22 The Parable of the Wedding Banquet teaches the otherwise:
Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’.......,,
But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
One has to prepare himself to join the wedding feast even though invited.
The right in the feast is not foreever, assured, guaranteed.
God's Eternal Assurance
God's Eternal Life Insurance is wrong teaching!
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious friend, a prayerful and Careful reading of "What Saith The Scriptures" Reveals
Judas Never believed!:
"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus Knew from the beginning
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“Jesus Answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
Thus, God's Eternal Assurance Makes Perfect Sense! Amen!!becasue the eternal assurance hit a rock with Judas case, so you made up such statement: Judas never believed from the beginning !
In Matthew 10:1–8, Jesus calls His twelve disciples—including Judas Iscariot gives them authority over unclean spirits, and sends them out to preach that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons.
It is highly inconsistent to argue that someone who performed miracles, preached the Gospel, and was explicitly sent out by Jesus as an accredited ambassador of the Kingdom was an unregenerate 'devil' or unbeliever the entire time.
John 12:6 notes that Judas had the money bag and used to take what was put into it. Furthermore, during the Last Supper, when Jesus says one of them will betray Him, the other disciples do not point a finger at Judas and say, "Well, obviously him, he never believed." Instead, they are deeply confused and ask individually, "Lord, is it I?" (Matthew 26:22). This suggests he was viewed as a peer in faith, not an obvious outsider or unbeliever walking among them.
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GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Still Makes Perfect-God-Sense Because Scripture Further Declares The Following:
Christ Has Always "Known those That Are His," According To Rock-Solid Truth:
“Nevertheless The Foundation of God Standeth Sure, Having This Seal,
The Lord Knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth The
Name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19 AV)
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"According As He Hath Chosen us In Him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"
(Ephesians 1:4 AV)
And, More Rock-Solid Truth Is When Three Books At Final Judgment Are Opened, we find That:
God Has Never Known "those that are NOT His", even though they "obeyed His Commandments"?:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that
day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils?
and in Thy Name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I Never Knew you: Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
Why? They, Also With Judas, Never believed !:
"...without faith it is impossible to please Him [ God! ]
(Hebrews 11:6 AV) = Rock-Solid TRUTH, eh?
Thus, there is no such "made-up" stuff as "Christ has always known believers that He has Never Known, eh?
Grace, Peace, Mercy, And Love! Amen!
There will always be much debate over this, but I agree with you, beechan.
Yes, we cannot really say whether Judas was an unregenerate 'devil' or unbeliever, either before or after he betrayed Jesus. We really have nothing given to us anywhere in the Bible to say one way or the other about whether he was a believer or not. Even in John 6:64 or John 6:70. And like you say, he was chosen and called by Jesus, just like the other twelve... Matthias was eventually chosen to replace Judas... disciples/apostles. It's a valid point that there is no explicit repentance by Judas, but this is the case with several characters in the Bible, and there's also nothing that suggests he was not penitant. By the same token, there is never any explicit repentance made by Peter for denying Jesus. But Jesus says to all of them in John 15:16 ~ and Judas was present ~ "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide."
Again, this has been and will remain a debatable topic, and to be honest I have struggled with it within myself, but yes, I think Judas will be standing with us on Jesus's right in the final Judgment. <smile> But, you know, whether I am or anyone else is right or wrong about that doesn't really matter, does it? <smile>
Grace and peace to all.
though I am not all agree with you. It is good to see you expressed your opinions and contributed to the thread.
You are saying Jesus chosed right from the beginning, an unbeliever, a devil to be his disciple. This disciple's mission was to betray him, to accompanish his plan?
OK, if Jesus knew Judas was a devil and NEVER believed, why HE allowed a devil to sit at his right side then?
(Just because he, the devil, did an undercover job well?)
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Stumpmaster
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And yet . . .
Mat 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. (22) Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? (23) And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
Looks like works without faith don't enjoy God's Grace.
How about faith without works?
and
Faith with works?
and , how about only good works, but without faith??
I think we all agree on 'no faith and no good work'!
This statement strongly suggest only faith is not enough. faith + good works! Each is indispensable to the other.
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Stumpmaster
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Interesting word, perdition . . . especially when linked to Foreknowledge, Predestination, Human Volition, & Divine Intervention.
Three notable figures connected with perdition are:
- Judas Iscariot - called "the son of perdition" (John 17:12).
- The Man of Sin / Antichrist - called "the son of perdition" (2 Thessalonians 2:3).
- The Beast, the Eighth King - repeatedly said to "go into perdition" (Revelation 17:8, 11).
An interesting word study is that the Greek noun apōleia ("perdition," "destruction") is used in all these passages, emphasizing not mere physical death but ultimate divine judgment.
- Judas Iscariot
Jesus referred to Judas as "the son of perdition":
Judas earned this description because he betrayed Christ and ultimately perished in unbelief. - The Man of Sin (Antichrist)
Paul describes the future enemy of Christ as "the son of perdition":
Stumpmaster
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Still, works without faith are dead, and need to be repented of:
Hebrews 6:1 . . . not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
One more question for you.
If Judas never believed, he only acted and pretented to be a follower of Jesus.
Then why at the end , he felt so sorry and hanged himself as penance?
The Bible gives us enough information regarding Judas Iscariot to know that, though he was chosen by Christ with the eleven, he was never chosen to be saved, because he was never made spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ, who was with them. God allowed Judas, one of the chosen twelve, not for salvation but to be the one to betray Christ. Because without the cross and resurrection no man could overcome sin and defeat death. This can only be accomplished for those who are born of the Spirit of Christ, which is Christ in you.
John 13:18 (KJV) I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9 (KJV) Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Lu 22:1 ¶ Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
Lu 22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
Lu 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Lu 22:4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
Lu 22:5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
Lu 22:6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
You whole post reads a modern theological system back into the text rather than letting scripture speak for itself. Labeling Judas as someone never chosen to be saved or never made spiritually alive turns him to fit your doctrine of OSAS so that Judas would not be an embarassment to your eternal assurance of salvation!
What these verses and passages show is that God chose Judas Iscariot for the purpose of betraying Christ. The Bible proves that Judas was not of God but was of Satan. It's really not different than how God chose Pharaoh "that the name of God might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Ex 9:13-16). In the same way God chose Judas to be the one to betray Jesus that the name of Jesus as Lord and Savior (Gospel message) might be made known unto all the earth.
Judas was chosen for a purpose, just as Pharaoh was. But neither of the two were chosen by God for eternal life through Christ.
Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
And to you the same.
"...chosed right..." <chuckles> When God ~ Jesus is God, right? ~ calls someone to follow Him, beechan, that person is still, at that moment, still an unbeliever, one whose father is the devil... a child of wrath, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:3. But, once called by God, though he or she still will in this life sin, he or she is born again of the Spirit, and because of this comes to believe in Christ. And I believe this to be the case regarding Judas. Regarding Jesus's choosing... <chuckles> ...I do believe that Jesus knew from the beginning that God would use Judas in that way to accomplish His purpose. So yes, in that sense, he... "chosed right." <smile>
Well, I disagree that it was Judas's "mission" to betray Jesus; I would rather say God used Judas... gave him over to temptation... even gave permission to Satan to use Judas (just as He gave Satan permission to harm Job's family)... to accomplish His (God's) purpose, in this case to get Jesus to the cross so that He could accomplish our redemption. And this is what God does, as Paul says; He works all things ~ all things ~ together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. This much is inarguable, that Judas succumbed to temptation and sinned. God does not tempt or sin, of course, but He does use things, even terrible, sinful things, to accomplish His purposes... and His glory.
I don't believe what Jesus says in John 6:70 indicates Judas was an unbeliever. Even Christians still sin, and sometimes terribly, and in that sense, we can be "devils," too.
I appreciate your opinion that Judas never believed, but that's only an opinion. Likewise, you certainly may say that my believing otherwise is only my opinion; I have no problem with that.
Where do you get the idea Judas is sitting at Jesus's right side? I mean yes, we who are born again are seated with Him in the heavenly places... and I believe this of Judas... But the fact that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God does not merely mean He sits in a chair on God's right side... <smile> ...it means far, far more than that.
<chuckles>
It does no such thing. Yes, Satan entered into Judas, but I would argue that this is along the lines of what I just said here to @beechan , that God gave Judas over to temptation and to Satan to accomplish His (God's) purpose, and that this means nothing one way or the other regarding Judas's salvation.
Son of perdition... son of destruction... I would say the same thing here as previously, at least twice: God used Judas and his (terrible) actions to accomplish His purpose. He even gave him over to temptation and Satan himself to do that. But I say again that it indicates nothing regarding Judas's salvation. The argument that Jesus called Judas to be one of His disciples and then apostles is far, far stronger; see above.
Now THAT... That, beechan, is a great question. Peter ~ who did not explicitly repent of his sin of (three times) denying Jesus, felt and expressed great remorse for having done so, and it is reasonable to believe that he did repent. So I would say the same thing regarding Judas, that he felt and expressed great remorse for what he did also, and... well you even use the word 'penance'... Yeah, so I think that to be a very, very good argument that Judas was in fact a believer. Now, is murdering oneself a good act of repentance? No, of course not, but yes, he showed great remorse, just like Peter did, and it's reasonable to believe he too repented of his sin.
Yes. Great.
It does not prove that. See above.
Grace and peace to all.
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