Pictures of Christ 2 returns...

[Dryhn]

Is the LORD Jesus Christ pre-trib or post-trib?

If referring to 1 Thess 4:16-17, my belief is PRE and as always I welcome polite discussion regarding different viewpoints

 

[David in NJ]

as always I welcome polite discussion regarding different viewpoints

Excellent

If referring to 1 Thess 4:16-17, my belief is PRE

Please explain how you perceive 1 Thess 4:16-17 to be PRE

 

[Dryhn]

Excellent


Please explain how you perceive 1 Thess 4:16-17 to be PRE

I'm PRE because believers in the trib can lose Heaven entry by failing to perform.
eg Lord Lord did we not......., ye visited me not....,

As yet for today no-one has listed verses from Paul that teach performance is a Heaven entry requirement

 

[Douggg]

Scripture says the dead in Christ rise first, not *some* of the dead in Christ rise first and not the beheaded saints of the trib rise first.

The dead in Christ rise first for the resurrection/rapture event, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.

Revelation 20:4-5 is not part of the resurrection/rapture event. But after Jesus has returned.

 

[Dryhn]

The dead in Christ rise first for the resurrection/rapture event, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.

Revelation 20:4-5 is not part of the resurrection/rapture event. But after Jesus has returned.

View attachment 92718

I'm with you Douggg, see you on the way up :)

 

[ewq1938]

The dead in Christ rise first for the resurrection/rapture event, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.

Revelation 20:4-5 is not part of the resurrection/rapture event. But after Jesus has returned.

All the dead in Christ rise at the resurrection event and it happens at the second coming.

There are only two mass resurrections, the first for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates from this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and Acts all say the saved first, then the unsaved in that exact order.


Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

 

[Douggg]

All the dead in Christ rise at the resurrection event and it happens at the second coming.

There are only two mass resurrections, the first for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates from this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and Acts all say the saved first, then the unsaved in that exact order.


Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

The resurrection/rapture event is not just a resurrection of the dead in Christ, but also the changing of living in Christ, i.e. the rapture.

There is no rapture mentioned in Revelation 19, nor Revelation 20.

You post trib view of the resurrection/rapture event is wrong.

 

[ewq1938]

The resurrection/rapture event is not just a resurrection of the dead in Christ, but also the changing of living in Christ, i.e. the rapture.

Those are two events that happen very close in time to each other. You have tried to claim the beheaded in Rev 20 are resurrected at a dif time than the rest of the saved dead but that is not correct.

There is no rapture mentioned in Revelation 19, nor Revelation 20.

So? Rev 19 is AFTER the rapture has happened as they are part of the army that comes with Jesus. Rev 20 starts with focusing on one group of the dead that will resurrect at the Coming. They aren't the onbly ones resurrecting at that time.

You post trib view of the resurrection/rapture event is wrong.

No, Pretrib's version is wrong and has no biblical support. apostasia is NOT the rapture. It's the Apostasy. There is also ONE resurrection event for all the saved dead as I proved with multiple passages. You didn't respond to any of those scriptures.

 

[Douggg]

Those are two events that happen very close in time to each other. You have tried to claim the beheaded in Rev 20 are resurrected at a dif time than the rest of the saved dead but that is not correct.

So? Rev 19 is AFTER the rapture has happened as they are part of the army that comes with Jesus. Rev 20 starts with focusing on one group of the dead that will resurrect at the Coming. They aren't the onbly ones resurrecting at that time.
No, Pretrib's version is wrong and has no biblical support. apostasia is NOT the rapture. It's the Apostasy. There is also ONE resurrection event for all the saved dead as I proved with multiple passages. You didn't respond to any of those scriptures.

Show your chart. Here is mine.

 

[ewq1938]

Show your chart.

Words and scripture are better than charts and you avoided almost everything I have posted so far. What good would a chart be? You should know what a Posttrib chart would look like anyways.

 

[Douggg]

Words and scripture are better than charts and you avoided almost everything I have posted so far. What good would a chart be? You should know what a Posttrib chart would look like anyways.

No, I don't know what your post-trib resurrection/rapture view chart would look like.

Show your chart which has the great tribulation, Jesus's return, the resurrection/rapture event, the resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs of Revelation 20:4-5, the 1000 years.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Scripture says the dead in Christ rise first, not *some* of the dead in Christ rise first and not the beheaded saints of the trib rise first.

Circular.
Because it does not say "ALL THE DEAD".

You bring one moot point after another with modified wording.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Words and scripture are better than charts and you avoided almost everything I have posted so far. What good would a chart be? You should know what a Posttrib chart would look like anyways.

Yes complete with the false made up uturn back to earth, your teachers invented at the rapture.
Think about it.
Your doctrine basically has a rapture for nothing...zero purpose.
"There the go.... going up up up."
"Oh wait...here they are coming down down down."
Really?????
You guys have invented the pointless rapture.
Elijah had a chariot with wheel alignment problems, it went up up up, but came down down down.



Postrib doctrine is mostly backpeddling damage controlled, trying to make up for all the impossibilities of some poorly thought out doctrine that edits the Bible

 

[rebuilder 454]

Their souls are seen in heaven.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


No, the passage is not looking back, just as Revelation 20:1-3 of Satan being cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand year prison sentence is not looking back.

The exclusive resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints will be right at the start of the thousand years. They will reign with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



View attachment 92713

One of your main problems is the wedding feast in heaven.

Since you are apparently tracking their movements in heaven, are any of the martyrs ever in heaven being priests to God and Christ, and sitting on thrones ruling with Christ?

Nobody has every answer.
Rev 20 is POST 7 YR TRIB AND PREMIL.

Your model is off.

You are trying to say the innumerable number CAN NOT BE resurrected saints.

But they are.
They are resurrected ( as are the dead in Christ) TO THE WEDDING FEAST in heaven.

 

[CrowCross]

Words and scripture are better than charts and you avoided almost everything I have posted so far. What good would a chart be? You should know what a Posttrib chart would look like anyways.

Do you have a post trib chart?
If so please post it.

 

[CrowCross]

Show your chart. Here is mine.

View attachment 92722

Could you add the wedding supper of the lamb and the Bema seat judgement?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Do you have a post trib chart?
If so please post it.

The chart of theirs shows the wedding supper on earth.
See all the backpeddling ?.

If they were road builders, they would lay it down with no thought to the base substrate, the drainage, or the underground utilities.

Then to save face, they would go on and on with how those items are ridiculous, and mock anyone challenging their "wisdom"

 

[CrowCross]

The chart of theirs shows the wedding supper on earth.
See all the backpeddling ?.

I'll have to google it.

 

[David in NJ]

I'm PRE because believers in the trib can lose Heaven entry by failing to perform.
eg Lord Lord did we not......., ye visited me not....,

As yet for today no-one has listed verses from Paul that teach performance is a Heaven entry requirement

You did not answer the question but you diverted with an opinion.

Here it is again:
Please explain how you perceive 1 Thess 4:16-17 to be PRE

 

[CrowCross]

You did not answer the question but you diverted with an opinion.

Here it is again:
Please explain how you perceive 1 Thess 4:16-17 to be PRE

16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

So my dear brothers, if you endure the tribulation and honor God to the last days of the tribulation, the Son of God will return and remove you from the tribulation. Therefore I once again say, encourage one another with these words.