Pictures of Christ 2 returns...

[Douggg]

Daniel 12:12-13 – "Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

The blessing 45 days after the end of the 1,290 days is tied to Daniel standing in his lot a the end of the days,

Daniel will return with Jesus. So the 1335th day is the day that Jesus returns to this earth, to Jerusalem.

The AoD setup............................1335 days.............................................Jesus returns day

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No....each picture depicts what the narrative is showing. Two events.

You didn't address what I said in my post. Why? Do you think the following passage is describing two events (one in verses 7 to 9 and one in verse 10)? It's describing the same thing as Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think the title of the thread should not be

Pictures of Christ 2 returns...​

Jesus will return to this earth only once, His Second Coming, to be physically present on this current earth for His 1000 year millennial rule.

Differently, Jesus coming for the resurrection/rapture event should not referred to as a "return".

He will only descend from heaven once in the future. Scripture does not teach otherwise anywhere.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus returns for His bride at the rapture.....does not physically come to earth.

Jesus returns with His bride physically on earth... to strike down the nations and rule.


27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

.....sounds pre-trib to me.

No, He will come from heaven once in the future (Acts 1:9-11, Hebrews 9:28) and will return with the souls of the dead in Christ who are now in heaven (1 Thess 4:14) and for those who are alive and remain along with the resurrected dead in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now you're combining the two different accounts presented in the bible.

As you know there is no white horse in the resurrection/rapture account mentioned in 1 Thes 4.

LOL. There is no white horse mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27), so does that mean it's not the same event as Rev 19:11-21? I'm sure you don't believe that, so this type of argument is invalid.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ahhhhh, the marriage supper of the Lamb happens prior to the 2nd coming of Jesus in Rev 19.
You see, if you find where the bible mentions the white horse return....go up a few verses and you read of the supper.

Read the text more carefully.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”

This does not say that the marriage (marriage supper) has already taken place at this point. It's saying that the wife/bride of Christ has made herself ready for the marriage at that point. Stop changing the text to make it say what you want it to say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have no idea what the purpose of the rapture , or the trib is.
You also have no idea what the rapture is.

Nor does any postribber.

LOL. Yet another post full of baseless claims from you. That's all you have to offer.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course. The beheaded can't rise when the dead in Christ rise in 1 Thes 4.

Why you might ask?

Because the beheadings happen to the tribulation elect which is after the general resurrection.

So, "the tribulation elect" are not in Christ? What a load of nonsense. Jesus said that the hour/time is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29). He didn't say that multiple hours/times are coming when all of the dead will be resurrected. You are contradicting what Jesus taught. That's a very bad idea.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

In the case of believers, Paul indicated they will all be resurrected when Jesus comes. He said nothing about any believers being resurrected in one event and then other believers being resurrected in another event. You are contradicting what Paul taught. That's a very bad idea.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm PRE because believers in the trib can lose Heaven entry by failing to perform.
eg Lord Lord did we not......., ye visited me not....,

As yet for today no-one has listed verses from Paul that teach performance is a Heaven entry requirement

Performance never has been and never will be a requirement for entering heaven. Salvation is by God's grace through faith and not by works. Period. When it talks about works in relation to salvation, it's talking about people doing works which reflect their faith and the fact that they belong to Jesus. It has nothing to do with anyone having to earn their way to heaven, which is impossible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The resurrection/rapture event is not just a resurrection of the dead in Christ, but also the changing of living in Christ, i.e. the rapture.

There is no rapture mentioned in Revelation 19, nor Revelation 20.

You post trib view of the resurrection/rapture event is wrong.

Not every passage about the second coming of Christ contains all the same details regarding that event. You can't expect the rapture to be mentioned in every passage that refers to the one and only future coming of Christ from heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The resurrection/rapture event is a one time event. It will not takes place post-trib.

Yes, it will. In order to believe in pre-trib you have to deny that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 will occur when the rapture occurs, which is not reasonable at all.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Why would anyone believe that the day when Jesus will "be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" is not the same day as the rapture when we will be caught up to meet Christ in the air? That makes no sense at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Post a verse stating a postrib rapture.
Just one if you can find it.

That's been done many times and you don't accept it.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Just like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, this describes the future coming of Christ and the gathering of His people. That isn't going to happen more than once in the future. It's ridiculous to think that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) are different events.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 20:6 does not say that the great tribulation martyrs will be the only priests.

I don't where you are getting the idea that disembodied spirits eating at the wedding supper of the Lamb.

The birds of Revelation 19-17-18 are the ones doing the eating, Revelation 19:21 the fowls (birds) will be filled by eating the flesh of the all armies that gather to make war on Jesus and his army in Revelation 19:19.

Wedding supper is in heaven.
What makes you think there is no eating?

Or that disembodied spirits eat ....as your model suggests.

 

[CrowCross]

No, none of the end times bible passages has the church being persecuted and killed during the great tribulation.

Revelation 3:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

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Also, you are supposed to be watching for the resurrection/rapture to take place.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

I agree.
Why....the church won't be here due to the biblical pre-trib rapture.

But.....there will be people who believe in Jesus during the tribulation that will be persecuted and killed in some instances.
Will they still be called the church? The elect? Tribulation saints?

 

[CrowCross]

You didn't address what I said in my post. Why? Do you think the following passage is describing two events (one in verses 7 to 9 and one in verse 10)? It's describing the same thing as Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 is Rev 19. NOT 1 Thes 4;16.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Thessalonians 1:7 is Rev 19. NOT 1 Thes 4;16.

And how are you coming to that conclusion exactly? Do you not think that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 will occur when 1 Thess 4:16 occurs? If not, why not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree.
Why....the church won't be here due to the biblical pre-trib rapture.

But.....there will be people who believe in Jesus during the tribulation that will be persecuted and killed in some instances.
Will they still be called the church? The elect? Tribulation saints?

Any follower of Christ at any time is part of the church and the elect. Scripture never teaches otherwise. To make these "tribulation saints" not part of the church is ridiculous. The church is the entity that has Jesus Himself as the cornerstone built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Ephesians 2:19-22). Why would you think that Christ followers persecuted during the tribulation would not be part of the church and the elect?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wedding supper is in heaven.
What makes you think there is no eating?

Or that disembodied spirits eat ....as your model suggests.

The wedding supper does not occur in heaven. It says the wife makes herself ready for the marriage supper at the time Jesus returns, as portrayed in Revelation 19. That means the marriage supper will have not occurred yet until then.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

You are trying to claim that the marriage supper will have already occurred before this. No. That's not what it says. It can't occur before the wife has made herself ready for the marriage.

 

[CrowCross]

No, He will come from heaven once in the future (Acts 1:9-11, Hebrews 9:28) and will return with the souls of the dead in Christ who are now in heaven (1 Thess 4:14) and for those who are alive and remain along with the resurrected dead in Christ.

I disagree. In a sense you're right...Jesus returns once, physically, but Jesus returns in the air to meet the christians in the clouds...then a "second" time when Jesus physically stands on earth.

Not every passage about the second coming of Christ contains all the same details regarding that event. You can't expect the rapture to be mentioned in every passage that refers to the one and only future coming of Christ from heaven.

The description of the "return" of Christ are sooooooooo different you can't make them the same returns.

The wedding supper does not occur in heaven.

Then where does it occur? Why is it not presented AFTER the return?

To make these "tribulation saints" not part of the church is ridiculous.

Not really as the tribulation saints don't have resurrected bodies and will not take part in the Rev 19 marriage supper.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Where is the parallel verse that shows this prophecy being fulfilled?

 

[ewq1938]

I agree.
Why....the church won't be here due to the biblical pre-trib rapture.

The church will still be here as the point of the tribulation is persecution of the church. Some of the church will commit Apostasy, which is a departure.

But.....there will be people who believe in Jesus during the tribulation that will be persecuted and killed in some instances.

And people who believce in Jesus are the church.

Will they still be called the church? The elect? Tribulation saints?

There are many names for Christians. There is no such thing as better Christians being taken away to not be persecuted by satan in the trib VS. lesser Christians that deserve to be persecuted in the trib. The church is not split into two Christian groups. All Christians that remain Christians will be in the trib if they are alive when the trib starts.