Would you say that the Creator first imagined everything that has come to pass in the past and will in the future.
That the Imaginator acted on what He visualised causing it to come into existence?
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That the Imaginator acted on what He visualised causing it to come into existence?
Dear One 2 question,
Scripture does not support your use of the word "imaginator".
Here is what scripture teaches:
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Joe
So the Creators didn't imagine a male human being before They created him?
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness
Taken
Well-Known Member
I would skip the word “imagine”…
(Implying “wondering” “IF”)
And lean more toward the word plan, idea….“vision”…
Nothing new under the sun.
The all knowing God, has Already… SEEN…
Every creation, making, fall, restoration, remaking…Taking and Rejection…of…
Who, What, When, Will, Want…
Take or Reject.
It is the created…that which…knows not all things …wonders, hopes, cares, ignores…
For Them…
A wait and see…After their mortal physical Death.
For 4,000 years of man-kind generations…
Until…2,000 years Ago…
When a “new better testament” was offered man-kind.
An 0ffering…of ASSURANCE…
of A ONCE and FOREVER... PROMISE…
TO BE WITH the Lord God Almighty /
Creator and Maker of All things…
Offered and Effected…
BEFORE mortal physical bodily DEATH…
AND
CONTINUE Eternally…EVEN SO
AFTER mortal physical bodily DEATH.
NEVER
ABLE TO BE “revoked”.
Josh 24:
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
1Thes 4:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
John 14:
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Heb 13:
[5] Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Glory to God,
Taken
That's up to you how you word things. I use the word imagine for its meaning if that's ok with you.
So our Creators had no idea of what They were going to manufacture ahead of time. They just through a bunch of chemicals together and saw what happened. I guess given billions of years surely something of significance would evolve.
You said...The all knowing God, has Already… SEEN…
Every creation....
Who made these creations you're refering to here?
Was this Creator and Maker not the same being as the Designer of all things?
So your god has no idea of what the future hold so for his part he like us just react to wherever pops up?
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Okay.
Would disagree.
Gods “thought”, (imagined, your preference), “decision”…and “Spoken” by God, Becomes Gods Thought, a Reality.
Humans, may see it… OR Wait “moments, weeks, years” TO SEE, it come into their ability “TO SEE”.
God Created and Made.
Yes.
No… that applies to humans…
“Wondering”, “Hoping” or “Assured…”
What WILL be “manifested”, for “their sight” TO SEE.
God “SAYS” the “thing”… And it Becomes…
(Whether or not a man believes it or sees it).
According to Gods ORDER and WAY.
Glory to God,
Taken
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Dear One 2 question,
Scripture never uses the word "imagine" as something that God does.
However, mankind does imagine things and it is always presented in a negative way:
Acts 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
2Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
You should do as scripture commands and not go beyond what is written:
1Cor 4:6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
Two of the things that I see apostate babes do frequently is to:
1). Add to scripture things that scripture does not state.
2). Ignore the teachings of scripture when it contradicts things that they have been taught by the ministers of Satan.
The carnal mind of man is really quite amazing in the wicked way it reasons and in the way it holds onto things that are not true.
Your member name implies that you like to question teachings that are presented to you. Hopefully, that does not include questioning the teachings of God's Word. God's Word (Christ) is the foundation of truth.
Let me ask you some rehetorical questions:
Do you believe in the Doctrine of free will?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Do you believe in the Doctrine of Hell?
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Do you believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity?
Eph 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ won't actually save 100% of the world?
Do you believe in the unpardonable sin?
Do you believe that salvation is an offer to mankind that requires a person to accept it?
Do you believe that getting to go to a place called heaven after you die is salvation?
Do you believe that end-time prophecy teaches one-time world events?
Do you believe that conversion/salvation happens when a person first believes?
Do you believe that a person can lose their salvation after they are saved?
Do you believe that after a believer dies, they will have conscious existence in heaven?
Do you believe in the teaching of the rapture?
Do you believe in a seven year tribulation period that will come upon the earth?
Do you believe that Jesus Christ has not returned to the earth yet?
If you answered "yes" to any of the questions above, you are not following the truth that scripture proclaims. You should question your understanding as your member name implies that you do and ask God to give you truth and understanding. It is only in that way that a person can find the knowledge of God:
Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’
Joe
I'm going to answer these questions... <smile>
So, to answer your question here, if God does call any one person in this inward way... and gives them a new spirit, one no longer dead in his/her sin, and causes him/her to be born again (Ephesians 2:4-10; 1 Peter 1:3-5)... then and only then will he or she accept it and believe and call upon the name of the Lord... but he or she will. Of his or her own free will. Else he or she will not, again, of his or her own free will.
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." (Paul, Romans 8:)
Yeah, so, I think there's a really good chance we're going to have a discussion about the way in which God foreknew this limited group of folks (not all folks)... <smile>
Grace and peace to you, Joe!
He's going to redeem all of creation... and make it all new, as He says in Revelation 21:5. But 100% of people... no, some will be given over to their own selfish passions and desires, having exchanged the truth for a lie, and worshiped creation rather than the Creator, as Paul says in Romans 1. And these... will depart... Having been resurrected to judgment (John 5:28-29), they will, as a result of the final Judgment, executed by Christ, will not enter into the New Heaven and New Earth, where all things will be new (Revelation 21:1-8), go away into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
Yes, of course. But there is disagreement about just what that unpardonable sin is.
Yes, it is an offer to all of mankind, sure. And yes, our acceptance of it and subsequent acting upon it is essential in our salvation. But the offer of God's salvation, the outward call of the Gospel of Jesus Christ must be distinguished from God's inward call, issued only to His elect, by His Holy Spirit in His working in our hearts. God does not call all people in this way:
"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." (Joel 2:32)
So, to answer your question here, if God does call any one person in this inward way... and gives them a new spirit, one no longer dead in his/her sin, and causes him/her to be born again (Ephesians 2:4-10; 1 Peter 1:3-5)... then and only then will he or she accept it and believe and call upon the name of the Lord... but he or she will. Of his or her own free will. Else he or she will not, again, of his or her own free will.
Sure, in its ultimate sense. And, there is a place that some will "get to go" after they die... <shudder> But there is both a sense in which we have been saved and also a sense in which we, in this life, are being saved.
I'm really not even sure what this question is asking, to be quite honest. I do believe there will be one final Judgment, but I believe that Revelation gives us specific illustrations and images of events that happen many, many times throughout the age ~ which I think is contrary to the thinking that spawns the question asked here ~ from Pentecost to Jesus's return (both also one-time events).
I believe it is made complete when this happens. But conversion/salvation does not... happen... because one believes. To reiterate a previous answer and carry it out here, one believes because he or she has been born again of the Spirit and thus no longer dead in his or her sin... given a new spirit, even the Holy Spirit... and this is because he or she has received this inward call of God (see above)... and this is because he or she is one of God's elect, one who He from all eternity, before the foundation of the world, predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son:
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." (Paul, Romans 8:)
Yeah, so, I think there's a really good chance we're going to have a discussion about the way in which God foreknew this limited group of folks (not all folks)... <smile>
No. Among many other supporting Scriptures... <smile> ..."we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39), and "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29).
Of course. And then, after Jesus returns and after the final Judgment, in spirit and body in the New Heaven and New Earth. Likewise will the unrepentant, but... not here... <shudder>
No, not in the sense of anyone being removed, or taken anywhere. Nowhere in Scripture is that idea supported. Again, when Jesus returns, and after the final Judgment, we who believe will... stay... <smile> ...and enter into the New Heaven and New Earth. Heaven, actually, will be brought down to us (Revelation 21:1-8).
No. Nowhere in Scripture is that idea supported. We are in the period of tribulation now, since Pentecost. I do believe there will be a great ramping up of the tribulation near the end of this "thousand years," which will happen when the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought into God's Israel, and the partial hardening that is now on Israel has been completely removed... in other words, when all the Gentile elect have been saved and all the ethnically Jewish elect have been saved. In this way, all of God's Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26). All whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
Yes. He has not returned yet.
Hmmm... <chuckles>
Hmmmm, yes, so again...
"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." (Joel 2:32)
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified...." (Romans 8:29-31)
Grace and peace to you, Joe!
Why would God give an "outward call" that is not matched by an "inward call"?
You remind me of John MacArthur who wrote that God loves the elect with a "better love".
Are you concerned that God won't look fair if He doesn't "call" everyone? Why would He "call" those He knows cannot come?
Hmmm... I don't mean this in any kind of disparaging sense, marks, but the question itself is a bit misguided. It just is what it is... outward in the sense that it is generally given to all and all hear it... the outward call to believe in the good news of Christ and Christ Himself, and inward in the sense that it is only given to some inwardly, of the heart, and those who are given this call of God subsequently respond to Him accordingly by believing and calling upon the Lord. Maybe the distinction between the two is clearer when understood as a general invitation that goes out to all as opposed to a drawing to oneself, in the sense that, as Jesus says in John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." This drawing to Himself is synonymous with the inward call I am talking about. Read what Jesus says here in Matthew 22:
“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Hmmm, okay, yes, a lot to like about a lot of the things John MacArthur said... <smile> What do you think he meant by "better"...? <smile>
Ahhh, "fair"... <smile> So just to answer your question, no. <smile> I would rather the term be 'just,' rather than 'fair.' And accordingly, that spawns a couple of... rhetorical, really... questions: Who determines what is just? And given that one answers that question correctly, can God's justice be... much higher... than man's? And to that I say that all are justly deserving of His wrath, but He chooses to extend His saving grace ~ unmerited favor ~ in the form of His mercy and compassion, which he gives to some and not to others, of His own will... just as Paul says in Romans 9:14-18...
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."
Again, many are invited, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14). And if they are not chosen, then they do not receive the inward call, but only the invitation. This invitation is the outward call of the Gospel and does indeed go out to all. But the inward calling of God is only given to a few:
- "those whom God foreknew" (Romans 8), which is synonymous with those whom He fore-loved...
- "His elect... those called from among the Jews and Gentiles" (Romans 9)...
- those whom God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world, that they/we should be holy and blameless before Him, those who in love God predestined for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1).
- ...as John says in 1 John 4:19, "We... (Christians) "...love because He..." (God, of course) "...first loved us."
Grace and peace to you, marks.
Oh nevermind. I don't know what I was expecting . . .
Misguided? I think this perceived disparity in "God's call" is a bit misguided, but we all have our own opinions, do we not? Of course if you follow a reformed sort of view on God's election of the saved, you have to address this disparity in some way.
MacArthur? Simply stated his idea of a "better kind of love" was pragmatic, "the kind of love that gets you saved".
It's the same kind of thing. "God is calling you", but not really, He's REALLY just calling the other guy that He's going to save. For you it's just for show. God loves you! But not really . . . He REALLY loves the other guy, for you, it's more like keeping you alive in your corruption until He burns you, and calling that love.
Something that underlies my concept of Who God is, is that He is True. For all those who argue, well, the world isn't really the world, and all isn't really all, and whosoever, you gotta understand . . . Sure.
Have you realized that God tells us upon whom He wills to have mercy? It's rather inclusive you know. All who will believe and receive Him, and that invitation is truly to all. Not pretend to all, and really only to some. No, God is true.
Much love!
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Dear Pinseeker,
I will respond to your "yes" answers.
You said:
He's going to redeem all of creation... and make it all new, as He says in Revelation 21:5. But 100% of people... no,
All of creation certainly includes mankind. For you to exclude the main purpose of this creation makes no sense.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…
You said:
Yes, of course. But there is disagreement about just what that unpardonable sin is.
There is no unpardonable sin. Christ only said that sinning against the Holy Spirit will exclude a person from salvation in the current age (Old Covenant age) and from the age to come (New Covenant age). Forgiveness will occur when Christ judges the lost in the final age.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
Prov 28:5 Evil men (all mankind which includes apostate babes) understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun (Christ is the Sun) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early and Latter Rain) on the just and on the unjust.
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. Look closely at the verse below:
Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
Why does the above verse include judgment with righteousness and that they will both fill the earth with the goodness of the Lord?
It's because judgment is a necessary component of salvation. Without judgment, mankind cannot become a new creation; a child of God. For this reason, Christ was eager to begin judgment upon mankind:
Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! Now consider this verse:
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Mankind is the clay. When Christ created mankind, He purposely did so in a spiritually marred way. This flaw in mankind's spiritual makeup caused mankind to become carnal & sinful creatures; the children of the devil. Because Christ desires his vessel to be perfect, He destroys the original vessel and makes the clay into a new spiritually perfect vessel. He makes this change within mankind through a spiritual process called "conversion". Conversion creates the new vessel and destroys the old vessel. Because the old vessel is flawed and cannot have faith in Christ, it is "condemned already". The old vessel's fate was decided long ago and it ends in destruction in the Lake of Fire.
This verse applies:
John 3:18 He (a converted person/children of God) that believeth on him is not condemned: but he (all mankind/children of the Devil) that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
During the time of judgment of the people in the Lake of Fire, Christ will freely give each person the Early and Latter Rains which will give each person the faith they need to make His pathway "straight" for Him to appear. When Christ appears to them, He will complete the person's conversion. This is the same spiritual process that the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and is what Paul experienced after his three days in Damascus were complete. The conversion process will birth the new child of God who will be gathered to heaven. This will leave the child of the Devil in the Lake of Fire to perish. This death will satisfy justice.
After Christ has converted the last person of mankind, Gen 1:26 and 1John 4:14 will be accomplished just as God's Word proclaims.
You said
Yes, it (salvation) is an offer to all of mankind, sure. And yes, our acceptance of it and subsequent acting upon it is essential in our salvation.
Scripture never says that Christ "offers" salvation. That is a false teaching of the apostate church. Salvation is a free gift that is "given" to mankind. The verse below applies to how Christ works within mankind:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Because God the Father and Christ have purposed to save all mankind, they will do it. Mankind's "will" in the matter is of no importance.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
You said:
Sure, in its ultimate sense (salvation = going to heaven).
You are thinking carnally. Salvation is to be converted into the image and likeness of God, along with having a glorious spiritual body that never dies. For that reason, Christ brings our salvation to us - we don't go anywhere to have it.
2Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,...
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
You said:
the question asked here ~ from Pentecost to Jesus's return (both also one-time events).
End-time prophecy teaches the spiritual events that lead an elect person to their moment of conversion. All the events are reoccurring because they will happen within each elect person during their lifetime. The second coming of Christ is Christ's final work that completes conversion. When Christ appears to an elect person, He does so spiritually and for the purpose of removing all the spiritual things (chaff) within the person which has caused them to be carnally minded and sinful. It is this judgment that destroys the child of the Devil.
You said:
I believe it is made complete when this happens. But conversion/salvation does not... happen... because one believes.
The conversion/salvation process begins for a person when Christ comes to them and gives them the Early Rain (a small measure of the Holy Spirit). The Early Rain will give the person a measure of faith and will cause them to accept Jesus as Lord. At this point, they are a babe in Christ. However, they still remain carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. After a time of waiting, Christ will return and pour out the Latter Rain (the baptism). This will birth the child of God (who has the mind of Christ) and will heal the person's spiritual blindness. Now with "eyes that can see", Christ will appear to the person and commence His judgment to remove and destroy their spiritual chaff. After this judgment is complete, the person is converted and saved.
You said:
Of course. And then, after Jesus returns and after the final Judgment, in spirit and body in the New Heaven and New Earth.
There is no life after death until the bodily resurrection from the grave occurs. Paul was asked about the state of the loved ones of the Thessalonians believers who had died (1Thes 4:13-18). Paul did not say they were alive in heaven with Christ. Paul told them about the coming bodily resurrection from the grave. Paul said that it is the coming resurrection that should give them hope and comfort about their loved ones.
You said:
Yes. He has not returned yet.
Christ's second coming is for the purpose of an individual's salvation. Because of such, Christ is, was and will be coming throughout this present age.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Joe
I think maybe I do... and why... <smile>
Maybe not the best word to have used there... But it was not meant in the way that, like, "you are misguided." I did not mean it that way, and I actually tried to head that possible misunderstanding off. So, the question itself, not you. <smile>
Okay, fair enough, but I'd like to hear you answer to the Scriptures I quoted, which ~ and you can call this my opinion; I'm good with that ~ are irrefutable, and cannot be construed in some other way, whatever that might be.
We certainly do. But even still, what is... is. <smile> As Peter says in 1 Peter 1:24-25 (referring to what David said [Psalm 37, 102] and quoting Isaiah [40:7-8]), "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of the Lord remains forever."
Grace and peace to you.
Answer to this one? Really? When you've already redefined it? What would I ever be able to tell you to accept the word God inspired, and what it means, instead of your substitution?
But you MUST change the meaning, otherwise, your doctrine is at risk.
I realize you have an entire argument on why God would use that word, when He meant something different. I read it for what it says, and so I reach different conclusions.
Shall I answer towards whom God will have mercy upon? All who believe, all who receive, all who will call upon the Name of the LORD. Just as the grace of God to salvation has appeared to ALL men . . . Jesus Christ, the true light coming into the world, Who enlightens EVERY man.
But then we get into these others words, "all", "the world", "every", I think the reformed idea is that none of these really mean what they say. Hard to debate the meanings of verses when we don't agree on the meanings of words.
What I was thinking? I wasn't thinking. We've been over this before.
Much love!
Going to shorten this... or maybe not so much...
The rest of your post... I mean, I'm really not sure what compelled you to go where you went with it, but okay...
There is both a now (so done) and a not yet (so will be) here. Think of it as inaugurated... but not yet made complete.
You're an interesting person, FWD. Enough is enough, though.
Grace and peace to you.
Yes there is... The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29). The funny thing ~ well, not really funny, but "funny" ~ is that in saying what you said here, you immediately refuted your own statement here.
The rest of your post... I mean, I'm really not sure what compelled you to go where you went with it, but okay...
Sure...
Absolutely disagree. Man did not become... "spiritually marred"... until Adam's sin in Genesis 3. As Paul says in Romans 5:12, "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned..." He ~ and thus all of mankind; Adam is the federal head of the human race ~ was not created in this state, but fell into it, after creation.
Yeah disagree with several things here... You seem to be conflating some things here, FWD. No vessel is destroyed in the sense of not existing anymore." As Paul says of these "vessels," because the Potter (God; we agree on that) has the right over the clay (all of us; again, we agree on that) and thus made out of the same lump many vessels for honorable use and other vessels for dishonorable use, and He did this because He desired, from all eternity, to show His wrath and to make known His power and has endured with much patience these vessels of wrath (those created for dishonorable use) prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy (those created for honorable use), which He has prepared beforehand for glory, even us (Christians) whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles.
No, the conversion ~ like Paul's as documented in Acts 9 ~ happens for us in this life, each at his own appointed (by God, of course) time (Acts 13:48). When we are born again of the Spirit, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-10 and Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5). At this point, we are in Christ and will one day ~ at the day of Christ ~ stand in the congregation of the righteous. There is a "now" and a "not yet" to what we are talking about... We have been converted. So in that sense, we have been saved. But we are also being saved, meaning we are, through the Holy Spirit Who is now in us, being sanctified, so not ultimately saved yet. In the same sense as the Kingdom of God is here now ~ Jesus said several times it was even then ~ but has not yet been ushered in in its fullness, which will happen when He returns, and after the final Judgment. This simultaneous now and not yet can be applied to many different things in many different ways, including our salvation. I think the best way to say this in one short sentence is to quote God Himself in Revelation 21:5... "Behold, I am making all things new." For us Christians, we are, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17, new creations ~ "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation." But at the same time we, are being made new (again, Revelation 21:5). And Paul says in Ephesians 2:10 that "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
They were already converted. Jesus called them... chose them rather than they choosing Him (John 15:16). Individually, for each of them, that was their conversion experience.
I didn't say Christ offers it. <smile> Christ accomplishes it, on the cross, by His death and resurrection... and while it is possible for all ~ no one is ineligible... <smile> ~ the only ones for whom it is effectual are God's elect.
<eye roll>
They did not purpose to save all mankind, at least because that would mean that some of God's purpose will have failed. If God had purposed it, it would come to be. "No purpose of (God's) can be thwarted" (Job 42:2), and as God Himself says through Isaiah, "as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
Not of no importance, but our salvation does not depend on our willing or doing, as Paul says in Romans 9:16.
Ultimately, yes, I agree. But this ultimate salvation has been made sure. So again, we have been saved... and... we are being saved. As Peter *1 Peter 1:3-9)says...
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith ~ more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire ~ may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen Him, you love Him. Though you do not now see Him, you believe in Him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls."
There is both a now (so done) and a not yet (so will be) here. Think of it as inaugurated... but not yet made complete.
<chuckles> I agree. So you're kind of refuting yourself here, FWD, really. Regarding our salvation, this is the now. And we are also absolutely assured of what is, as of now, not yet.
Hm. Even though He said, In Matthew 28:20, He would always be with us, even unto the end of the age... Yet again, there is a "now" and a "not yet" to this... He is not yet with us in person. And the same is true in reverse... as Paul says, we are (now, having been born again by the Spirit) raised with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places, but we are not yet with Him in person.
You're an interesting person, FWD. Enough is enough, though.
Grace and peace to you.
I didn't "redefine" anything, marks. It is what it is. I've said this before about this foreknowing... The Greek root there is the same one that, when translated back to the Hebrew of the Old Testament, is the same word used by Moses when he says, in Genesis 4:1, "Adam knew his wife Eve." Well of course he knew who she was, but that is obviously not, in accordance with the context there, what is meant by Moses... this knowing is in the sense of loving.
And I know full well why you reject it. So it is.
You think you do, yes. <smile> And I have no problem with you saying that right back to me.
Right.
I'm sure you going to anyway, regardless of what I say. <smile>
Well, I agree. But... again; I guess you ignored this... why to those who come to call on the name of the LORD... and yes, they do so of their own free will and accord... WHY DO THEY COME TO CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD, marks? What is the FIRST CAUSE of this free act of theirs? Again, Joel answers this, in Joel 2:32, and John refers to Joel 2:32 specifically in John 3:16, and Paul does the same thing in Romans 10...
Right, as Paul says in Romans 1, even of unbelievers, so all men, "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them" (1:19).
Are you actually quoting (or referring to) something specifically in the Bible, marks? Because for me, what immediately comes to mind is what Jesus Himself says in John:
- "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me... this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6)
- "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... because I tell the truth, you do not believe me... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." (John 8)
- "...you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10)
No, it's that "the reformed" (and some others) understand the context in which those words are used. Just take the word 'all,' there. We can speak of all and mean "every single one," but we can also use 'all' in the sense of "every single one of a specific group, a portion of the whole." And the latter is the context of everyone' as used by Joel, John, and Paul, in Joel 2:32, John 3:16 (and that's actually Jesus), and Paul in Romans 10:13.
Certainly. Absolutely agree.
I know. <smile> But that's not to insinuate that you're unable to think, or of any limited intelligence... <smile> Obviously, neither is the case. But... so often in these conversations I hear the words of Simon and Garfunkel in The Boxer, circa 1968: "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..."
We have. More than once, I think.
Grace and peace to you.
I seek truth straight from the mouth of the Creator. And yes this comes through the Spirit of Truth.
I appreciate getting it second hand, that is, what others have received through the same Spirit.
But seeking and receiving direct revelation is my first go to.
Quoting YOU:
"Life with God outside the bible is great!"
"ALL humans have sinned against God and all are going to hell forever and ever."
No Christian would say such things!
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Direct revelation from GOD ?
Why would He do that since all that He wants us to know is available from the completed Scripture we have today - The Bible :)
There seems to me to be nothing greater than to hear the words of my Father, the voice of my Shepherd Jesus and revelations downloaded within me from Their Spirit. For this I certainly don't apologise but rather share boldly and confidently.
Father may have told you to stick with the contents of the bible. If so my encouragement would be to obey Him.
But for others of us we must obey Him as well. Hearing what He says through whatever means He chooses. I don't get to choose that.
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