Pictures of Christ 2 returns...

[A Watchman]

That same ratio is in mat 24.
"One taken/ one left behind, pretrib, watch and be ready."

Seems like the same ratio, but several cases of one taken and one left doesn't cover other cases where 10 might be left or 5 might be taken to their death. Maybe there's a group in the grocery store that none are taken. We don't have the whole picture to gauge whether it's the same ratio or not.

Matthew 25:1-13 is speaking of 10 virgins waiting for the bridegroom, which would seem to encapsulate the whole of those expecting to marry this bridegroom. However, only 5 do and 5 are shut out. In this parable we are given the view of the whole and then given the part included and excluded. It's also a different context because the ones taken are taken to eternal life, not corpses.

 

[A Watchman]

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [a]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

How can what is described in relation to the trumpets all happen after the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus Christ, obviously) has already come at the sixth seal or shortly after (see Rev 6:16-17)?

Firstly, I wouldn't let the scared people whose lack of attention has led to being caught unawares as defining when the wrath actually begins. Yeah they're scared and hiding from Him at His coming, but for those watching it's a time of looking up because their redemption draws nigh.

Secondly, we are told immediately after this that even the wind should not blow on the earth or sea or trees so they are not hurt until the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed.

Revelation 7:1-3 – "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Then, after the seventh seal is broken and the seven angels are given their trumpets, what do the first four trumpetters do? They hurt the earth, sea, and trees.

Revelation 8:7-12 – "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise."

Now this last one might seem like it's not something to hurt the earth, but if the effects of sun, moon, and stars were shortened by 1/3, what kind of havoc would that cause on the earth (heat) and seas (tides)?

Personally, I think this speaks to a speeding up of the rotation of the earth such that 4 hours of the day and night, 8 hours total, are missing because it's spinning faster. Perhaps this is related to celestial events that caused Wormwood and the asteroid strike and hail and fire. That's admittedly speculation on my part.

 

[A Watchman]

His wrath will come down on the day when He returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21)?

The wrath will begin when He returns, yes. But you have to take all the other scriptures into account as well.

Matthew 24:35-39 – "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Heaven and earth will pass away when everything else that must be accomplished is and His words will never pass away, amen! Yeshua will reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years after defeating the armies at Armageddon. His return at that time shows the evidence of Him treading the winepress of the wrath of God prior to it. Revelation 19:13, Isaiah 63:1-6 That is the beginning of the day of the Lord.

Luke 17:26-37 – "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

The days of Noah and Lot saw the righteous removed from the destination of God's wrath before it came. Noah and family above the global destruction and Lot and family away from the localized destruction. The wrath of God is coming on all them that dwell on the whole earth, so we will be removed before it comes, at the sixth seal when He returns to save faithful Israel out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea as promised in Jeremiah 30:4-7, Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:15-22, and Mark 13:14-20.

But note that the warning not to go back to your house to collect your stuff, that's tied to the abomination of desolation before the wrath of God comes and like Lot's wife looked back to the life she was losing in departing, so will people die if they don't just flee.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 – "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Yes, this is the wrath of God, the sudden destruction that comes from the Almighty, that we are to escape. This is different from the wrath of the Dragon at the abomination of desolation that begins before God's wrath. Matthew 24:15-31

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 – "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

The rapture takes place when the Lord returns, that is the completion of our race we run and are caught up to Him to eternal rest in glorified bodies. That is also when He will take vengeance on the world not caught up to escape His wrath as promised. They will not only receive the wrath of God temporally, but ultimately upon death will be punished with everlasting destruction in hades until death and hell are cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgement, then they will be cast into the lake of fire forever to be punished there as well.

2 Peter 3:8-12 – "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

From the time of Yeshua's return until after the great white throne judgement will be a day known to the Lord that is like 1,000 years to us. It begins with God's wrath, continues with Yeshua's presence reigning on earth after His enemies are defeated, and ends with final judgement and the second death when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Then this heaven and earth are destroyed, the very elements melting with a fervent heat and a new heaven and earth are created in which we will live with Him forever.

Revelation 19:11-21 – "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Yeshua has already begun treading the winepress of the wrath of God as evidenced by His return from heaven already splattered with the blood of His enemies. They weren't in heaven, so He must have been on earth carrying out the wrath prior to Armageddon. He is going to rule the nations that He's smiting with a rod of iron, meaning they aren't destroyed, they're ruled over as it states clearly.

 

[A Watchman]

So, how can all of the trumpet events occurr even after He returns? That's not possible. The seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other.

The trumpets and bowls are His treading the winepress of the wrath of God.

Isaiah 63:1-6 – "Who [is] this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this [that is] glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore [art thou] red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

The day of vengeance and His redeemed are the same time, we escape before it begins. He treads the winepress alone and the evidence is the blood-sprinkled garments. He has to return to earth to tread the winepress of the wrath of God on the earth. That's what the sixth seal is. He's the only one worthy to carry out the vengeance.

Revelation 5:1-7 – "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

The trumpets and bowls can occur after He returns because He is the one responsible for them taking place in the earth. The seals, trumpets, and bowls cannot be parallel to each other because the trumpets aren't given to the angels until the seventh seal is opened.

Revelation 8:1-2 – "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

The seven bowls are handed to the angels after the seventh trumpet began to sound.

Revelation 15:1, 5-7 – "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."

And it sounds over a period of time, not just one blast like the others because the seven bowls fill up the wrath of God and come after the trumpet while they complete the wrath before the mystery of God is finished, meaning that all the bowls take place within the seventh trumpet, but after all 6 previous trumpets were blown and the events they portend took place.

Revelation 10:7 – "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The idea of a parallel seals, trumpets and bowls is neither suggestive in consistent similarities between them nor in the literal statements in words of their clear order.

 

[A Watchman]

That is because that is what Jesus was referring to.


The question they asked isn't where those taken will be taken. The question they asked is where will it take place that one is taken and the other is left? Jesus's answer is that it will happen wherever the birds gather around dead bodies. In other words, it will happen everywhere because His return is a global event and unbelievers will be killed throughout the world when He comes. That's why He compared that event to what happened to unbelievers in the flood which He specifically pointed out that it "destroyed them all" (Luke 17:28). When Jesus returns, all in Christ will be caught up to Him and everyone else will be destroyed. That is what is indicated in Luke 17:26-37 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4.

So the disciples thought that it might happen somewhere other than earth?

The Noah and Lot is tied to "the day when the Son of man is revealed." It then continues with another section.

Luke 17:31-37 – "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Matthew 24:15-18, 21-22, 28 – "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ... For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

They're both talking about the same time just before the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:9-14 – "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Interesting that this is the exact same order Yeshua gave for the end of the age and the sign of His coming. Great tribulation starting at the abomination of desolation where many will be killed for their faithfulness followed by the sixth seal and His coming when those in Judea are saved out of the time cut short and the elect are gathered from the earth to meet the Lord in the air.

The one taken is taken to corpses, killed. This is the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea. Those who don't flee to the mountains at the abomination of desolation will be caught up in this. It is separate from the Noah/Lot analogy, which is tied to escaping God's wrath. In both Matthew 24 and Luke 17 the Noah/Lot analogy ends with "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" before moving on to the one taken one left. The one taken is tied to corpses, not immortality, though if they died in Christ, they will be raised shortly after, once all their fellowservants have been killed as they were prior to the sixth seal.

 

[ewq1938]

Stop using the word "trib". Instead say "70th week" or "7 years".

Stop using the word "stop". Instead use the word "begin".

The 6th seal event is not the 7th trumpet plague.

The seal describes what happens in the 7th trump. No plague is in the the 7th trump text.

The 7th trumpet sounded announces what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing that his time is short. Revelation 12:12.

That is not the 3rd woe trump. The 3rd woe is found in Rev 11, with some of it's events found in the text of the 6th seal. Rev 12 where woe is found is some time before the 6th trumpet. At the very best it could possibly be a reference to trhe first woe trump but it is unlikely a reference to any of those last trumps.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, if it's a distinction that only half of the faithful in the church in relationship with Yeshua are taken then I do not agree. The parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 is pretty clear that all the virgins were waiting for the bridegroom, but only 50% of them actually did because the five foolish virgins were shut out of the marriage and told by the bridegroom that He did not know them.

I think the foolish represent those Christians that commit the Apostasy.

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.



The foolish take only their lamps, which have a reservoir of oil but doesnt hold an overly large amount. The wise take extra containers of oil, vessels, so they have a larger supply.


Many believe that the oil is truth, love, forgiveness or The Holy Spirit. It doesn't really matter for the purpose of the parable which it represents since all the virgins are intending to meet the bridegroom as verse 1 says, and all have lamps and oil, though some have more oil. However, I believe it represents truth and faith and will allude to that in this work.


Faith is belief in the truth without evidence. It takes faith to believe something is true without it being proven. So who would have "some" truth and who want to meet Christ but fall short? I would say they are most Christians of today. They have the milk of the word, and they certainly want to go to Christ, but they dont have the whole truth and they believe doctrines like the pre-tribulation rapture.


The wise ones have more of the truth, they carry it on purpose, its more labor but they know it's important. These will have enough truth to know about the tribulation and the false Christ and they will stay true to Christ until He returns.



5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.


The darkness at midnight will be the tribulation. The cry being made is by those who are the watchers, who are telling that the true Christ is coming even though the whole world sleeps because of the darkness. The 5 wise virgins are the elect and the ones "calling" that the true Christ is coming are the watchers and the two prophets. When this call is made by them the elect will "wake up" and trim their lamps and use that oil they have. They get all this extra oil before the tribulation, which is now, through the teachings of those God has anointed with truth and faith, that extra oil. So, even the wise 5 virgins slumber right until Christ was announced!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Seems like the same ratio, but several cases of one taken and one left doesn't cover other cases where 10 might be left or 5 might be taken to their death. Maybe there's a group in the grocery store that none are taken. We don't have the whole picture to gauge whether it's the same ratio or not.

Matthew 25:1-13 is speaking of 10 virgins waiting for the bridegroom, which would seem to encapsulate the whole of those expecting to marry this bridegroom. However, only 5 do and 5 are shut out. In this parable we are given the view of the whole and then given the part included and excluded. It's also a different context because the ones taken are taken to eternal life, not corpses.

So you are saying the wicked are taken and the righteous left behind in mat 24?
If so then where do they wait until Armageddon? Because Jesus said that 50% gathering is preflood/ pretrib.
Plus you are creating a model of half the world righteous and half the world wicked.

Your model fails on at least 3 or 4 points.

Nobody i know of is formulating a model due to half taken in 2 places of the Bible.
I am not ....as you're erroneously suggesting.

A "wicked man rapture prerrib", suggestion, should make you change course, due to it being beyond outrageous.

But postribbers have backed themselves into numerous corners.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, if it's a distinction that only half of the faithful in the church in relationship with Yeshua are taken then I do not agree.

That is what he is claiming. And Jesus did not mean to say that literally half of people are taken and half are left. He was simply indicating that everyone will experience either being taken or left.

The parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 is pretty clear that all the virgins were waiting for the bridegroom, but only 50% of them actually did because the five foolish virgins were shut out of the marriage and told by the bridegroom that He did not know them.

That would be my distinction, that not everyone who says they are a Christian is, just as is the case for the Jew.

Of course. Anyone can claim they are a Christian, but that doesn't make them one.

Luke 17:26-30 is speaking to the day when the Son of man is revealed. It's tied to the destruction of God's wrath, but just because the flood was a sudden and all-encompassing event that destroyed all flesh but those in the ark doesn't mean the wrath of God will destroy all flesh by fire at once within the same time frame as the flood did.

Yes, it does mean that and Peter indicated the same in 2 Peter 3:6-7. When Jesus returns, He will destroy all unbelievers by fire (2 Peter 3:10-12). Paul described that as "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3).

 

[Douggg]

That is not the 3rd woe trump. The 3rd woe is found in Rev 11, with some of it's events found in the text of the 6th seal. Rev 12 where woe is found is some time before the 6th trumpet. At the very best it could possibly be a reference to trhe first woe trump but it is unlikely a reference to any of those last trumps.

The first woe is the flesh tormenting locust creatures that torment men (without the seal of God) for 5 months.

The second woe is a third of mankind killed by an army of 200,000,000.

The third woe is Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath, knowing his time is short.

You say the third woe is in Revelation 11. Then, according to you, what is it ? Copy and paste the verse of what is the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, being removed from the earth produces the side effect of being kept from the hour of temptation.

It isn't necessary to be removed from the earth in order to be kept/protected from the hour of temptation. Read John 17:15. You are contradicting what Jesus prayed about by thinking we will be removed from the earth in order to avoid trouble. The only point at which we will need to be removed from the earth is when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night bringing "sudden destruction" by fire upon the earth from which unbelievers "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12). Believers will escape by way of being changed to put on bodily immortality and being caught up to Christ "in the air" when He comes. There is no basis at all for thinking we will be removed from the earth any time before the day Jesus returns.

The context is that a time unlike today or before is coming on all the world to try them that dwell on the earth. That is an all-encompassing statement is it not? So if we are kept from the hour of temptation that is coming on all them that dwell on the earth, the only place to be kept from it is not on the earth.

Now you say it's similar to being kept from the evil one and Yeshua didn't ask for us to be taken out of the world for all that time up to now, what's changed? Well it's not about the wrath of the Dragon that's been happening through his children since sin entered the world. Something distinctly different is coming that we are promised to escape from that directly ties to the days of Noah and Lot.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 – "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

God's wrath is not the same as temptation. You are conflating God's wrath with Satan's wrath and deception. Nothing says we are not appointed to being tempted and to Satan's wrath. Believers have had to put on the armor of God to defend and fight against the devil's schemes for a long time already. Nowhere does it say that we'll ever be taken off of the earth to avoid that.

It also comes unexpectedly like a thief to the world and they won't escape. But it doesn't come unexpectedly for those watching and they will escape. Escape what? The wrath of the Dragon, great tribulation?

No, God's wrath that will come as "sudden destruction" upon unbelievers "from which they shall not escape". None of them will escape. But, all believers will.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 25:10-13 – "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

The bridegroom comes to meet us "in the air", not in heaven. That passage does not say that the marriage takes place in heaven.

This parable is part of the Olivet Discourse and immediately preceding it was the warning to the church through the disciples to watch and remain faithful. Now the word for virgin is parthenos, which is a virgin, a marriageable maiden, a woman who has never had intercourse with a man, or one's marriageable daughter.

Matthew 24:45-51 – "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Now one can say it's just a parable and isn't related to the church at Christ's coming, but I personally believe it is placed here as part of the answer to the disciples question, "when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Revelation 19:7-8, 14 – "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. ... And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

The clothes that she is arrayed in are those of the army returning from heaven with Christ. And those called the virgins waiting for the bridegroom prior and up to His coming are here seen before they return from heaven called His wife. There is a distinction between the pre-marriage virgin and the post-marriage wife. The Greek gynē is interpreted as wife, a betrothed woman.

Matthew 5:31-32 – "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife[gynē], let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife[gynē], saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

Matthew 19:3-5 – "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife[gynē] for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife[gynē]: and they twain shall be one flesh?"

Acts 5:1 – "But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife[gynē], sold a possession,"

Ephesians 5:22-33 – "Wives[gynē], submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife[gynē], even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives[gynē] [be] to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives[gynē], even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives[gynē] as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife[gynē] loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife[gynē], and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife[gynē] even as himself; and the wife[gynē] [see] that she reverence [her] husband."

So if the catching up of the virgins to the marriage and the transition to wife in heaven when the marriage is said to have arrived before returning at Armageddon is not a picture of the marriage in heaven, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm pretty sure I've read the text carefully, ensuring I look at the original Greek meanings to distinguish between an unmarried virgin before the marriage and a wife after it.

I can't comprehend anything you're saying here. You are turning something simple into something convoluted. Once the wife/bride is ready then Jesus will return with the souls of the dead in Christ and then they will be united with their resurrected, changed bodies and will be caught up along with those who are alive and remain to meet Christ in the air. At that point Jesus will destroy His enemies and the marriage will occur after that. Maybe after the judgment takes place first (Matthew 25:31-46).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you are saying the wicked are taken and the righteous left behind in mat 24?
If so then where do they wait until Armageddon? Because Jesus said that 50% gathering is preflood/ pretrib.
Plus you are creating a model of half the world righteous and half the world wicked.

You equate the trib with the flood. The flood is not the trib that a vast majority associate with the trib. So, you make things confusing by using a different definition for the trib than almost everyone else. The flood should be compared to the wrath and destruction that will occur on the day Jesus returns, which He said Himself will be "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). Pretty much everyone agrees what the rapture will occur before Christ's wrath comes down on the day He comes again. His wrath will be global like the flood was and it will destroy all unbelievers. That's why He pointed out that the flood "killed them all" and said it will be like that when He comes.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The various English translations are not the original Greek text. They may have similarities, but they are different.



This same word harpazo is used of an unexpected catching away to the third heaven in some way, and of Yeshua's ascension to heaven as we will ascend at His coming.

2 Corinthians 12:2 – "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up[G726 harpazo] to the third heaven."

Revelation 12:5 – "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne."

Of course it is used in negative context to such as being seized unwillingly, but context matters and I'm just pointing out that the destination of those taken while the other is left leads to a destination of death while the third party seizing of believers to the clouds is to eternal life in immortal bodies. These are two very different pictures.

Matthew's account has an odd order that puts the dead bodies and birds out there at the end of the unparalleled time just before Yeshua's return at the sixth seal, yet it is in that same window Luke puts it in where those in Judea who do not heed the warning to flee to the mountains and then reject the false messiah will be killed for that rejection. They are taken to be killed while those left remain in the false messiah's kingdom. Then the Lord returns in glory. Matthew 24:28-31



Then you are not actually reading what I wrote. I specifically said the one who is taken is at the very least rejecting the false messiah, but very well could be a righteous person as well. I suspect those taken will be righteous who are killed for remaining faithful to God in rejecting the false messiah. I do think there could be those that just don't believe the Messiah is God and the false messiah declaring himself to be God will cause them to reject him. These are those who will see the Lord coming in the clouds and repent and mourn. Will they be considered righteous for rejecting the false messiah if it wasn't because they believed in Yeshua? That's in God's area to determine, knowing their hearts.

I never said the one take in a wicked person. The wicked people are the ones taking the "one taken" to kill them.



I'm not post-trib and I don't claim the "one taken" is the pre rapture of the church. I claim that "one taken" has nothing to do with the rapture whatsoever.



In my model, Noah has nothing to do with the trib. The flood is representative of God's wrath, just as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was. Noah and Lot were saved out of the destination of God's wrath before it came.



You're adding "numbers" I didn't give so I can understand your answer would be miles off. I honestly can't believe you came up with that. That's so far apart from anything I've read in scripture lol.



Um, nope. There is no pre-trib rapture and the sixth seal and coming of the Lord is after the abomination of desolation in the midst of the 70th week, so it would be 3.5 years, not 7. But again I don't believe anything near what you're saying. The resulting conclusion from those taken to be killed is that those rejecting the false messiah are being killed for that rejection in the time after the abomination of desolation and prior to the sixth seal when the Lord returns in the midst of the 70th week.



Well I'm not a post-tribber and when the Lord catches up His faithful bride to heaven at His coming, the ones left behind are 50% of those who claimed to follow Him but He didn't know them. Matthew 25:1-13 But while they are cast into the great tribulation being left behind and will go through the wrath of God on the earth, they are still promised to reign with Him if they remain faithful and obedient to death during the wrath of the Dragon on God's people in the second half of the 70th week.



paralambanō is a verb and doesn't speak to a destination, that's taken from the context given. "taken to a good place" might be true in some cases.

Mark 9:2-3 – "And after six days Jesus taketh[G3880 paralambanō] [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them."

The fact that Yeshua took Peter, James, and John with Him does not mean He took them to a good place, but the fact that they then got to see the glorified Christ in the place where He took them would suggest they were taken to a good place.

To be taken to a place where dead bodies are feasted on by birds is a matter of opinion as to whether that's a good place.



The whole context of Matthew 24 is speaking to His followers, why in the world would the wicked pay His Word any mind if they hate Him and His Word? Nothing I stated suggests Yeshua is telling the wicked to watch for His coming pretrib, that makes no sense.



Your straw man is very effective in taking down what you yourself built up. So many things I did not say, maybe some one could jump to conclusions on, but that's a silly game.

So I agree that "wicked person pretrib rapture" fails in so many ways. I'm glad I didn't come up with it.

Your strawman is not knowing what you are talking about.

Postribbers HAVE INDEED INSISTED that the ones taken in mat 24 are wicked people taken to die.
That is 100% truth that you can not seem to process.
I do not need a 'strawman" as you erroneously invented.

QUOTE
"Um, nope. There is no pre-trib rapture and the sixth seal and coming of the Lord is after the abomination of desolation in the midst of the 70th week, so it would be 3.5 years, not 7. But again I don't believe anything near what you're saying. The resulting conclusion from those taken to be killed is that those rejecting the false messiah are being killed for that rejection in the time after the abomination of desolation and prior to the sixth seal when the Lord returns in the midst of the 70th week."


Your model, as you have invented, does not have the correct setting.
Your model is 180 degrees off, and opposite Jesus words.
PLUS , Daniel placed the reign of the AC as 7 yesrs. Not your inventer 3.5 years.
In Daniel it says, HALFWAY THROUGH the 7 years, is the AOD.

You made up that 3.5 year deal to answer your doctrinal inconsistencies.

None of your talking points addresses the setting of the rapture in matt 24 of "one taken"

You have no idea what Jesus is teaching in mat 24, and misconstrue what I am saying.

QUOTE
" But while they are cast into the great tribulation being left behind and will go through the wrath of God on the earth, they are still promised to reign with Him if they remain faithful"

Rev 13 debunks your false claim that those left behind go through ANY SUCH WRATH.
That is where your deal has led you.
You have half the church going through the wrath of God.

QUOTE
"This is to take to or take with oneself, a companion, which sounds very similar to the idea of being taken up to meet the Lord in the air. But the context can't be ignored. When asked where they are taken, it is where the birds gather around dead bodies."
What a coincidence it fits the pretrib rapture perfectly, but the riddle of Jesus, of bodies and vultures, has so many trying to fit that into some literal mixture of cunning interpretation.

Bottom line is it is one or the other.
Either it is the rapture of the church, or half of a group is ACTUALLY TAKEN to a place of dead rotting bodies.( which fits absolutely nothing)
1) half the world is not, and never will be saved
2) since that is true, who is the group that half are singled out to sit on a hillside and stare at rotting bodies , or are taken to be those rotting bodies.
3)plus, that reference of bodies and vultures is AFTER THE 7 YEAR TRIB (or 3.5 of wrath, whatever the current modern day students need the 7 yr trib broken up into)
So that means, the half taken is AFTER THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON AND AFTER THECSECOND COMING.
HUH? NORMAL LIFE, EVERYDAY LIFE, COMMERCE, DESCRIBED BY JESUS, IS AFTER THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON????

4) that time difference of Jumping from Jesus pretrib/ preflood setting to 7 yrs later has to be some poorly thought out doctrine.

How can anyone buy into that twist?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The wrath will begin when He returns, yes. But you have to take all the other scriptures into account as well.

Matthew 24:35-39 – "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Heaven and earth will pass away when everything else that must be accomplished is and His words will never pass away, amen! Yeshua will reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years after defeating the armies at Armageddon. His return at that time shows the evidence of Him treading the winepress of the wrath of God prior to it. Revelation 19:13, Isaiah 63:1-6 That is the beginning of the day of the Lord.

Luke 17:26-37 – "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

The days of Noah and Lot saw the righteous removed from the destination of God's wrath before it came. Noah and family above the global destruction and Lot and family away from the localized destruction. The wrath of God is coming on all them that dwell on the whole earth, so we will be removed before it comes, at the sixth seal when He returns to save faithful Israel out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea as promised in Jeremiah 30:4-7, Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:15-22, and Mark 13:14-20.

But note that the warning not to go back to your house to collect your stuff, that's tied to the abomination of desolation before the wrath of God comes and like Lot's wife looked back to the life she was losing in departing, so will people die if they don't just flee.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 – "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Yes, this is the wrath of God, the sudden destruction that comes from the Almighty, that we are to escape. This is different from the wrath of the Dragon at the abomination of desolation that begins before God's wrath. Matthew 24:15-31

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 – "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

The rapture takes place when the Lord returns, that is the completion of our race we run and are caught up to Him to eternal rest in glorified bodies. That is also when He will take vengeance on the world not caught up to escape His wrath as promised. They will not only receive the wrath of God temporally, but ultimately upon death will be punished with everlasting destruction in hades until death and hell are cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgement, then they will be cast into the lake of fire forever to be punished there as well.

2 Peter 3:8-12 – "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

From the time of Yeshua's return until after the great white throne judgement will be a day known to the Lord that is like 1,000 years to us. It begins with God's wrath, continues with Yeshua's presence reigning on earth after His enemies are defeated, and ends with final judgement and the second death when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Then this heaven and earth are destroyed, the very elements melting with a fervent heat and a new heaven and earth are created in which we will live with Him forever.

Revelation 19:11-21 – "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Yeshua has already begun treading the winepress of the wrath of God as evidenced by His return from heaven already splattered with the blood of His enemies. They weren't in heaven, so He must have been on earth carrying out the wrath prior to Armageddon. He is going to rule the nations that He's smiting with a rod of iron, meaning they aren't destroyed, they're ruled over as it states clearly.

Sorry, but I can't make any sense of what you believe. You think He's going to rule over people that it says He just tread in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God? No, I don't believe that makes any sense. Psalm 2:7-9 confirms that He will destroy them, not rule over them in the way that you think. This lines up with other scripture which says He will destroy all unbelievers when He returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The trumpets and bowls are His treading the winepress of the wrath of God.

No, the treading of the winepress of the wrath of God occurs on the day He returns, as portrayed in Revelation 19:11-21. It will be in the form of "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape", according to Paul (1 Thess 5:2-3). It will be by way of fire coming down upon the earth, according to Peter (2 Peter 3:10-12).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your strawman is not knowing what you are talking about.

Postribbers HAVE INDEED INSISTED that the ones taken in mat 24 are wicked people taken to die.

Some see it that way and some, like me, see the ones taken as being believers being taken up to meet the Lord in the air. The Greek word translated as "taken" there supports that view because it means to be taken to oneself. Some think it's talking about being taken and destroyed because that's what Jesus said about those who were taken away by the flood and destroyed. But, that is a different Greek word translated as "taken" there. The ones left are left on the earth and end up becoming bird food (Luke 17:37, Revelation 19:17-18).

 

[A Watchman]

I think the foolish represent those Christians that commit the Apostasy.

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

The foolish take only their lamps, which have a reservoir of oil but doesnt hold an overly large amount. The wise take extra containers of oil, vessels, so they have a larger supply.

Many believe that the oil is truth, love, forgiveness or The Holy Spirit. It doesn't really matter for the purpose of the parable which it represents since all the virgins are intending to meet the bridegroom as verse 1 says, and all have lamps and oil, though some have more oil. However, I believe it represents truth and faith and will allude to that in this work.

Faith is belief in the truth without evidence. It takes faith to believe something is true without it being proven. So who would have "some" truth and who want to meet Christ but fall short? I would say they are most Christians of today. They have the milk of the word, and they certainly want to go to Christ, but they dont have the whole truth and they believe doctrines like the pre-tribulation rapture.

The wise ones have more of the truth, they carry it on purpose, its more labor but they know it's important. These will have enough truth to know about the tribulation and the false Christ and they will stay true to Christ until He returns.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

The darkness at midnight will be the tribulation. The cry being made is by those who are the watchers, who are telling that the true Christ is coming even though the whole world sleeps because of the darkness. The 5 wise virgins are the elect and the ones "calling" that the true Christ is coming are the watchers and the two prophets. When this call is made by them the elect will "wake up" and trim their lamps and use that oil they have. They get all this extra oil before the tribulation, which is now, through the teachings of those God has anointed with truth and faith, that extra oil. So, even the wise 5 virgins slumber right until Christ was announced!

I agree in part, but I think dividing on lines of rapture timing and knowledge is inconsistent with what is being said. It's an us vs. them setup that divides over something that isn't the foundation for relationship with Yeshua by His Spirit. I agree it's tied to faith and obedience, but not so much the strength of these, but the endurance of them. This is sort of to your point regarding having understanding to differentiate the lies from the truth and remain faithful.

I believe that the oil is the fuel for the flame which lights the path, similar to the Word being a lamp to our feet and light to our path. The quantity of it speaks to how long that flame is maintained, the endurance of faith and obedience, patience. Dwelling upon the Word and of whom it speaks strengthens relationship, departing from it and dwelling only on ones own desires weakens relationship.

Psalm 119:11, 105 – "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. ... NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

Yeshua spoke of this kind of thing in other parables regarding keeping the patience in faith.

Luke 8:11-18 – "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience. No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth [it] under a bed; but setteth [it] on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither [any thing] hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have."

Romans 8:22-25 – "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]."

Luke 21:17-19 – "And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."

Romans 5:1-5 – "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Matthew 24:45-51 – "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 – "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

 

[A Watchman]

Oil in a lit lamp burns and goes away, it must be renewed as the menorah was in the temple and had to be lit continually. That candle was always symbolic of the church. Revelation 1:20 But an unlit lamp is useless for its purpose and continued relationship and refilling of oil is needed to keep that relationship and purpose in place.

A married couple doesn't shake hands every now and then and expect that relationship to last. How is our relationship with God any different? A relationship is a 2-way street of interaction and communication. Every mention of the abomination of desolation by Daniel is preceded by the stopping of the daily ministry at the temple, which included the menorah, shewbread, daily sacrifice, etc. These were necessary for ritual purity and also a sign of desire for continued relationship. When these statutes to be kept throughout their generations were stopped, it was a sign that the priestly representatives of the people no longer desired to continue the relationship.

When we stop maintaining our relationship, the oil runs out and He never knew us. That's how I see it at this point anyway.

In relation to your point about getting the extra oil before the tribulation, I think teachers are a good start, but our relationship is personal between each individual and God and so we should personally hide His Word in our hearts, dwelling on it and making that personal between us and God. The Word never fails, but teachers always can.

Acts 17:11 – "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

It seems to me that having no oil speaks to the time before the tribulation and during, when faith in God's promises is overcome for some like those whose where the seed fell to the wayside or on the rock where in temptation there is no root and they fall away, or the seed that falls in the thorns. In all these cases the Word of God is not the foundation, the relationship is not present, and there is no oil to light the path.

The foolish virgins represent those who like the idea of heaven, but maybe not so much of that God stuff. They said the words and now they're good. They'll just do what they want and when the time comes they're golden. When they are shut out of the marriage many will change their heart and go through the hour of temptation that many of those taken had been going through in faith up to His coming.

 

[A Watchman]

So you are saying the wicked are taken and the righteous left behind in mat 24?
If so then where do they wait until Armageddon? Because Jesus said that 50% gathering is preflood/ pretrib.
Plus you are creating a model of half the world righteous and half the world wicked.

Your model fails on at least 3 or 4 points.

Nobody i know of is formulating a model due to half taken in 2 places of the Bible.
I am not ....as you're erroneously suggesting.

A "wicked man rapture prerrib", suggestion, should make you change course, due to it being beyond outrageous.

But postribbers have backed themselves into numerous corners.

The great tribulation is the Dragon's wrath on God's people, with the addition of anyone who refuses to worship him.

It starts at the abomination of desolation.

The one taken is taken by those who worship the antichrist.

The one taken is killed by those who worship the antichrist.

The one taken is not wicked.

The dead are waiting for Yeshua to return at the sixth seal if they are His or the great white throne judgement if not.

I'm not creating a model, I'm reading the Bible and taking it at its word.

My perspective does not hinge on half taken in 2 places of the Bible, I don't recall suggesting you were doing that and I apologize if I did. I was just commenting on a perspective you posted and my take.

I did not suggest a "wicked man rapture prettrib," but you keep saying I am. No amount of you saying I'm saying that will make what I'm saying fit what you're saying I am.

I'm also not a post-tribber, I'm a pre-wrather because the wrath of God coming on all them that dwell on the whole world is the one thing we are explicitly told we will escape from because we are not appointed to it. What wrath does God have for His bride if He is glorified in our faith? That's like a child getting a spanking because they're making their parents proud.

If forced to tie my perspective on the timing of the catching away to the tribulation, it would be mid-trib, because I believe scripture points to His coming after the abomination of desolation and before the trumpets and bowls at the sixth seal. More specifically, He comes at most 30 days after the abomination of desolation. So the church will be present for 1/42 of the tribulation, but that first month is focused in Judea so while the rapture is objectively mid-trib, for most christians it will seem pre-trib subjectively. It will also be post-phase1trib and pre-phase2trib. Revelation 12:13-17

As you can see, because of the nuance of defining the great tribulation as it is not one amorphous blob of 3.5 years, defining rapture timing to the tribulation is more complex than just saying pre-wrath.