Fate vs. faith

[skypair]

God chose you = FATE
You chose God = FAITH

So which are you saved by .. FATE alone or FAITH alone?

 

[OzSpen]

God chose you = FATE
You chose God = FAITH

So which are you saved by .. FATE alone or FAITH alone?

skypair,

From which Bible have you read that 'God chose you = FATE'?

In the Bible I read, God chose Christians = election/predestination (see Rom 8:28-30; 1 Pet 1:1-2).

Oz

 

[DPMartin]

Faith is trust/belief one might place, but one doesn’t trust or believe what they don’t know, and you can know without revelation and revelation is God’s choice to do. Hence God’s Way of choosing the elect.

Jesus even teaches the parable of the sower of seeds whereas the good ground and the rest, but the seed takes only to the good ground, hence it is the good ground that is chosen.

Also, Jesus when He walked amongst His People looked for faith, those who didn’t have it are not chosen. But again, they had to meet Him, which would be the revelation of the Word of God in the flesh and they were those who responded to His Presence, hence they knew Him.


Even the thief on the cross acknowledge Him as Lord and that wouldn’t of happened without revelation, consider the thief on the other side didn’t acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior, because the Truth of God wasn’t revealed. Again, God’s Choice.

Nothing happens in God’s creation without God’s approval, and no one most certainly no one gets to be in His Presence for ever without His choice to do so. Its arrogant to think otherwise.


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Also, Faith comes by hearing, and what is heard is the Word of God


Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

i dunno, it might be seen that the one thief just changed his mind, under the overwhelming weight of the evidence or whatever. If you have no free will, you are not responsible for changing your mind, it seems to me.

 

[DPMartin]

i dunno, it might be seen that the one thief just changed his mind, under the overwhelming weight of the evidence or whatever. If you have no free will, you are not responsible for changing your mind, it seems to me.

you are not responsible for being born into sin, the condemned state of being separated from God's Presence, but God is responsible for inviting you to be with Him in His Glory in Christ Jesus. there is no changing of mind, there is not knowing He is who He is, and the revelation of His Word in His Presence revealing who He is.

Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

how many hear the Word of God as rubbish according to them, and how many hear and are Saved? it is revealed to the now Saved and not to the others. don't think that its their choice, because even the devils acknowledged Christ when they were in His Presence in the flesh, and they rejected Him long ago as their Lord and were cast out of God's Presence, how did Jesus say it, like a bolt of lightening. and when Jesus returns all flesh will bow willingly or not, a required acknowledgement of a Rightful King.

 

[skypair]

skypair,

From which Bible have you read that 'God chose you = FATE'?

In the Bible I read, God chose Christians = election/predestination (see Rom 8:28-30; 1 Pet 1:1-2).

BINGO .. He foreknew who would have faith ("Christians") and chose them!

Here's what that equation looks like: FAITH = God chose you b/c you had faith in God.

Now let's look at the other one: FATE = You have faith b/c God chose you. But in this case, what is your faith in? Is it in Christ OR it is in "election?" It's clearly in election b/c you believe that God chose you to salvation, right?

skypair

 

[Mungo]

God chose you = FATE
You chose God = FAITH

So which are you saved by .. FATE alone or FAITH alone?

Neither.

 

[bbyrd009]

you are not responsible for being born into sin, the condemned state of being separated from God's Presence, but God is responsible for inviting you to be with Him in His Glory in Christ Jesus. there is no changing of mind, there is not knowing He is who He is, and the revelation of His Word in His Presence revealing who He is.

Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

how many hear the Word of God as rubbish according to them, and how many hear and are Saved? it is revealed to the now Saved and not to the others. don't think that its their choice, because even the devils acknowledged Christ when they were in His Presence in the flesh, and they rejected Him long ago as their Lord and were cast out of God's Presence, how did Jesus say it, like a bolt of lightening. and when Jesus returns all flesh will bow willingly or not, a required acknowledgement of a Rightful King.

ya, not buying it, sorry.

how is it that people who know magic is contrived seek a hocus-pocus god? Tares are powerful stuff.

 

[aspen]

God chose you = FATE
You chose God = FAITH

So which are you saved by .. FATE alone or FAITH alone?

The phrase 'faith alone' is not found in the Bible. Martin Luther tried to add the phrase in order to bolster his idea that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Modern Christians often misunderstand the meaning of faith. Faith is a position of the mind, heart, will; it is a suspension of the internal critic / creating a space for learning new ideas / being open to what happens / assuming a position of expectation, practicing awe and wonder. Ironically, many people believe faith means certainty or sticking to an idea no matter what.....

It is this fundamental misunderstanding and misuse of the term that often drives atheists crazy when they engage with Christians of the fundamentalist ilk.

 

[bbyrd009]

38if they change their attitude toward you in the land where they are captives, if they pray to you toward the land that you gave their ancestors, and the city you have chosen, and the temple I have built for your name,

2Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

5Remember how far you have fallen. Return to me and change the way you think and act, and do what you did at first. I will come to you and take your lamp stand from its place if you don't change.

 

[aspen]

[QUOTE="aspen, post: 298157, member:

 

[OzSpen]

BINGO .. He foreknew who would have faith ("Christians") and chose them!

Here's what that equation looks like: FAITH = God chose you b/c you had faith in God.

Now let's look at the other one: FATE = You have faith b/c God chose you. But in this case, what is your faith in? Is it in Christ OR it is in "election?" It's clearly in election b/c you believe that God chose you to salvation, right?

skypair

This is false! My faith is in God alone for salvation and God's way of explaining what he does is called election. Please don't second guess me because you got it wrong this time.

What is fate? It is 'the will or principle or determining cause by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do' (Merriam-Webster Dictionary 2017. s v fate).

I do not find any concept of fate in the Bible. I do find teaching on God's sovereignty - He is in control or in charge (Ps 115:3; Prov 16:9; Rom 8:28).

What is God's sovereignty?

Sovereignty can be defined as having supreme authority, control, and power over all that has happened, is happening, and will happen in the future in all times across all history. Christians define it as the ruler of the universe, God, having the right, the authority, and the power to govern all that happens and what has, is, or will happen being in accordance to His divine will. He has the right to achieve His purposes and has the power to bring about circumstances that dictate whatever He wills to come to pass. He has complete control of everything and there is nothing that is done that is not done by or allowed through His will. This is expressed by Paul in Romans 8:28 as he writes that “we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose" (source).​

While God is in charge, he has given human beings the freedom to obey or disobey him (2 John 1:6; Titus 1:16). There are other things that God gives in answer to prayer: 'You do not have because you do not ask God' (James 4:2 NIV).

God is sovereign but he doesn't act according to fate.

Oz

 

[101G]

God chose you = FATE
You chose God = FAITH

So which are you saved by .. FATE alone or FAITH alone?
******************************************************************************

GINOLJC, to skypair. good post, but may I make this suggestion.
the question is not Fate or Faith, but rather Fact and Belief. it is a Fact that God has chose you/us, but it's you/us who must believe.

understand, it’s like faith and Works. before salvation and after. one is not saved by works... or alone, but once save, one should work.

here, in this question, one is not save by Fate nor by Faith unless one believe. scripture, 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth”. THIS IS A FACT. NOW, Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love”. this is Fate, because it is based on belief. the you/us is those saved in him.

the reason why I changed the question is this, Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith”. as you said, “You chose God = FAITH”. well if every man have been dealt the measure of Faith, then it’s no longer you choose God, but he chose you, which bring us right back to 1 Timothy 2:4 above.

so the formula should be;
God choose you = His Faith
You chose God= your belief

God have the Faith, but how can you believe, answer, Romans 10:12-17 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God”. and when one hear one believes. so belief on our part only come after his/God's faith is measured to every man. and all who the apostle Paul spoke to in Romans 12 was believers.

Faith (his faith/God’s) + believe (your Belief) = FACT.

 

[Glen55]

You have to play all the parts and realize the lost and wicked are not sepatated from our own earthy nature that Roman sevens explains about these two siblings that are symbolized in the scripture as two distinct brothers when they both live in everyone, the prodigals brother shows the attitude that is jealous and self righteous not grasping the kingdoms good bad and the ugly must be experienced through revelation, only perfect love overcomes the letter that kills 2Cor 3:6.

 

[Abiding Grace]

God chose you = FATE
You chose God = FAITH

So which are you saved by .. FATE alone or FAITH alone?

We are chosen for salvation as the Bible states:

John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

John 1:12,13: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Romans 9:15-16: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Faith, grace and repentance are gifts bestowed upon us.

 

[brionne]

God chose you = FATE
You chose God = FAITH

So which are you saved by .. FATE alone or FAITH alone?

Romans 5:1 tells us that faith is the reason for our salvation.

I believe having 'free will' discounts the idea that 'fate' can take us anywhere. The decision is ours and God asks us to make a decision. If we have faith, hopefully we will make the best decision and live according to that faith.

 

[skypair]

What is fate? It is 'the will or principle or determining cause by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do' (Merriam-Webster Dictionary 2017. s v fate).

I do not find any concept of fate in the Bible. I do find teaching on God's sovereignty - He is in control or in charge (Ps 115:3; Prov 16:9; Rom 8:28).

"Fate," events and destiny determined by the gods, was what the Greeks put in opposition to "free will." Calvinists chose to believe in fate (sovereignty of God) rather than free will (God-given sovereignty of man over his own choices and destiny).

What is God's sovereignty?


Sovereignty can be defined as having supreme authority, control, and power over all that has happened, is happening, and will happen in the future in all times across all history.

Assuming that He wants such sovereignty at all times (as Calvinists do). However, God has sovereignly chosen to be sovereign over the CONSEQUENCES of men's decisions rather than overpower them.

Christians define it as the ruler of the universe, God, having the right, the authority, and the power to govern all that happens and what has, is, or will happen being in accordance to His divine will. He has the right to achieve His purposes and has the power to bring about circumstances that dictate whatever He wills to come to pass. He has complete control of everything and there is nothing that is done that is not done by or allowed through His will.

Sure .. but that last thought is kills total sovereignty. "Permissive will" is, at its heart, allowing man to sovereignly choose for himself of his own will what he will think, do, say, etc. That is how God's sovereignty works .. we choose - He either judges or has mercy.

God is sovereign but he doesn't act according to fate.

…like Calvinists say that He does, right? They tell us that God determines our fates — saved or reprobate — before creation.

skypair

 

[skypair]

“You chose God = FAITH”. well if every man have been dealt the measure of Faith, then it’s no longer you choose God, but he chose you, which bring us right back to 1 Timothy 2:4 above.

so the formula should be;
God choose you = His Faith
You chose God= your belief

Very good! Did you realize in writing this that there are many beliefs in God but only two operative gospels in effect now? One of those gospels, the everlasting gospel, knows the Godhead (Ro 1:18-20) worships and thanks Him but is not saved. In this group are largely children who cannot comprehend sin and so, cannot repent of their sin and selfish nature. So yes, these have a very primitive "measure of faith." All kids, it would seem, brought up in Christian homes would be included here for sure, right? In the Bible, Job and Cornelius are examples of adults that were "safe" under the everlasting gospel until God sent "messengers" (Job 33:23-32) to tell them the gospel.

However, when one understands his sin guilt and selfish nature, the gospel of Jesus Christ is what that person needs. Receiving Christ unto salvation, one has yet a greater measure of Christ .. and so on as one grows in Christ/grace.

skypair

 

[Abiding Grace]

The phrase 'faith alone' is not found in the Bible. Martin Luther tried to add the phrase in order to bolster his idea that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Modern Christians often misunderstand the meaning of faith. Faith is a position of the mind, heart, will; it is a suspension of the internal critic / creating a space for learning new ideas / being open to what happens / assuming a position of expectation, practicing awe and wonder. Ironically, many people believe faith means certainty or sticking to an idea no matter what.....

It is this fundamental misunderstanding and misuse of the term that often drives atheists crazy when they engage with Christians of the fundamentalist ilk.

I'm sure you have already seen the response from Martin Luther. Yet the Bible says we are saved by grace. Grace is a gift from God. Notice that Ephesians 2:8-9 says the very same thing.


Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God. There it is in the Bible, it not for anything we can do.

What is your problem with fundamentalists?

God Bless

 

[Abiding Grace]

Romans 5:1 tells us that faith is the reason for our salvation.

I believe having 'free will' discounts the idea that 'fate' can take us anywhere. The decision is ours and God asks us to make a decision. If we have faith, hopefully we will make the best decision and live according to that faith.

brionne, nice to meet you.

When I post, I like to make sure that I have some scriptural support for my foundation. I have never found a single verse in the Bible that says we have free will unto salvation. To the contrary, it says that we are saved by grace and that we cannot do anything to earn it.


Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God.

John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

I look forward to reading your posts. God Bless.