No scripture supports the Rapture

[Copperhead]

i think these can easily be challenged by attacking the definition the "anyone" is using to represent the original word used; iow i can make an argument for the original word "woman" symbolizing "soul" or "ego" or likely even "Church;" but i cannot very well make an argument for "lampstand."

What was intended--we hopefully agree--is the spiritual principle that is (either) being related (or not), and "doctrinal error" ends up being the argument we all use against the concepts that we do not agree with anyway imo.

And there is no doctrine that you could even relate to me that is unassailable; not a single one. Give it a shot if you like.

Nah.. not worth the time.

I am in good company though...

"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies of the Bible and insist on a literal interpretation in the midst of much clamor and opposition."
- Sir Isaac Newton

 

[Wormwood]

I think it is important to also understand that Ecclesiates is a book of exploratory perceptions from one "under the sun." The entire book is a series of false presumptions about life that the author explored and discovered to be false. Perceieving life "under the sun" led to all kinds of false conclusions about where meaning and happiness could be derived. Thus, the author found that everything was meaningless...wisdom, money, women, power, etc...when viewed from this perspective. Thus, his perspective about man dying is the perception of one who is searching for meaning in things under the sun. As a result, the perception and pursuit are both faulty. It isn't until the end of the book that the author comes to the conclusion and reveals the true meaning of life. So, in my opinion, the prior explorations need to be kept in context and should not be viewed dogmatically anymore than the words of Job's friends should be viewed as authoritative. Just because something is in the Bible does not make it God's perspective. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Wormwood]

Nah.. not worth the time.

I am in good company though...

"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies of the Bible and insist on a literal interpretation in the midst of much clamor and opposition."
- Sir Isaac Newton

I think it is important to note that simply because something is "spiritual" does not mean it also cannot be literal. I mean, spiritual things are real....even more real than physical things. Also, just because a number may be symbolic doesn't also mean that it isn't something real and concrete. It is just that its meaning is more to be weighed than counted.

 

[ScottA]

This is practically unintelligible.

Re the 'second death', this applies to the martyrs resurrected at Jesus' Return. Rev 20:4-6 They simply come to life again, just like Lazarus did and they may or may not die again, but they have the absolute assurance of eventual immortality at the GWT.
God's people, true Christians will be priests and rulers during the Millennium, Revelation 5:9-10

Your last Corinthians quote is in 2 Corinthians 5:6-10, finishes with: For we must all have our lives laid open before the tribunal of Christ, where we each will receive what is due to them....good or bad.

It is a hard saying, yes, but not unintelligible...if you can receive it.

These are all eternal (timeless) matters "laid open" in time. That is how they must be understood - this is the time of their being "laid open", for time is limited to the world, and the world is passing away. Yet if you only look at all things from the worldly perspective of time, then that is all you will comprehend. But the time has come that knowledge should be increased. Eternal timelessness is not what is foreign, but rather matters of time. But it requires the renewing of your mind.

So, then, all these things must come to pass, even now, while there is still time.

 

[keras]

This thread seems to be fairly evenly divided between those who believe in a rapture removal to heaven, before any dramatic world disasters and those who do not believe in a rapture.
I do not believe that God has planned to take His people to heaven at any time and I have written many posts and articles proving it, mostly by showing what God actually does plan for His peoples future. How He will protect them and bless them. They are all on my free logostelos website.

As a onetime rapture believer myself, I can sympathize with people who have been taught that theory; often as the only end times event for us Christians to expect. Any change in their beliefs means alienation from their church and most often from friends and family as well. A very hard call to make!

Also it means having to admit they have been deceived and need to repent, especially if they have taught a rapture to others.
What is evident to me, is that no amount of scriptural proof against a rapture can change the minds of those locked into the rapture belief.

The fact that it isn’t actually prophesied anywhere in the Bible, the fact that many prophesies do make clear what God does plan for His people, makes no difference.
God tells us why this is: Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 42:18-20, 1 Corinthians 3:18-20
Only by the power of the Holy Spirit, can people be released from their beliefs in false teachings.

Paul does say that we Christians should not be in the dark about God’s plans for us, however it seems that only a few will understand the truth: Daniel 12:10b
So, if the rapture is for real, then Daniels prophecy that only a few will know God's plans; is wrong?????

 

[Wormwood]

Just to be clear, my position (and I think that of a few others) is not that the rapture won't exist. We just don't define the rapture as a secret, silent event where believers suddenly vanish from the world.

 

[Copperhead]

Why would you feel the need to sympathize with folks who believe in any position. That implies that you have all the knowledge of God and a corner on all theology. That borders on pride, a sin. I still believe that all of us, to one degree or another, will have egg on our face in the final analysis. And those that feel they have all the facts laid out right may indeed have more egg than others.

You like to use the word "fact". Well one "fact" that is true.... 2000 years of church history has not improved on the "fact" that the church was already in trouble, theology / doctrinally, before the ink was dry on the NT. Anyone reading the NT should be able to see that. And most of the church thought they had a firm grasp on what was true.

There are a lot of things that aren't mentioned specifically in the Bible, it doesn't mean they are not true. The Trinity comes to mind. And some would say the Rapture isn't either, but that just shows they haven't seen a Latin Bible. The word is right there. There may be debate on when, but the word is right there. In the Greek it is Harpazo, and the Latin Bible translates that as Rapturo, which we get our transliterated word, Rapture. And I am sure many other examples could be found without much effort.

 

[keras]

I sympathize with those who have only been taught the rapture. Many haven't even heard of an alternative, let alone the truth of God's plans for His people. Their teachers will get a more severe judgement. James 3:1
I make no claims of 'all knowledge', exception the knowledge found in the Bible, that I promote.

The established 'Church' fell into error very early, as you say. But the modern translations of our Bibles do have the truth of God's Word, provided we use discernment and careful exegesis.

Re the 'rapture' - it is the 'rapture to heaven' that I dispute. Jesus refutes that idea: John 3:13, John 8:21-23
There will be a 'transportation' to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem, at His Return. 1 Thess 4:15-17, Matthew 24:31

 

[OzSpen]

Quite correct, you have the promise of eternal life now, and provided you maintain your faith you will receive it at the GWT. Greek verbs? So what; it is the basic meaning and the logical understanding that counts.

keras,

You do not accept what I wrote about John 3:36 that believers have and continue to have eternal life as long as they believe. That's Bible.

NT teaching: Hebrews 9:27 our lot is to die once, with Judgement to follow. John 3:13 No one goes to heaven... 1 Thess 4:13...those who sleep in death... Rev 14:13 Happy are those who die in their faith...let them rest...
The idea of the dead going to live in heaven, is just a false assurance spoken at funerals to grieving relatives.
No; Eccl 9:5, Job 14:10-12, Psalms 22:29, plus many others are NOT superseded by the New Testament.

Heb 9:27 says that 'Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment' (NIV), AFTER THAT does not state that it happens instantly they die.

As for John 3:13, 'No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man' (NIV). However, where did the thief on the cross go at death?
'Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise"' (Luke 23:43 NIV). So, absent from the body and present with the Lord for the thief meant at death he went to Paradise. Today's believe can go to no better place at death.

As for 1 Thess 4:13, it teaches, 'Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope'. Do you support soul sleep? The Bible doesn't! See my article: Soul Sleep: A Refutation.

New Testament scholar, Dr. N. T. Wright, wrote that “when ancient Jews, pagans and Christians used the word ‘sleep’ to denote death, they were using a metaphor to refer to a concrete state of affairs.We sometimes use the same language the other way round: a heavy sleeper is ‘dead to the world'” (Wright 2003, p. xix).

When my father died and I saw him in his coffin, he looked as though he was asleep. This is how we are to understand the language of sleep associated with death in the Bible. “Sleep” of the body is a metaphor that refers to death.

Remember the story of Jesus and Lazarus in John 11:5-44? Of Lazarus, it was said that he “has fallen asleep” and Jesus was going “to awaken him” (v. 11). Jesus was very clear what he had meant by “sleep.” “Now Jesus had spoken of his death” (v. 13). “Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus has died'” (v. 14). Jesus explains further: “Everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die” (v. 26).

So, in this situation we have this kind of language used: Lazarus died and he looked as though he was asleep but the truth was that, because Lazarus believed in Jesus, Lazarus would never die. That sounds paradoxical. He died but he would never die! As we will see, this means that the believer who dies physically and appears to be asleep (a metaphor), does not die because his unseen soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord, thus meaning that the believer never really dies. At death, the believer’s real being (his/her soul) goes into the presence of the Lord (see 2 Cor. 5:8).

You claim the Christian dead going to live in heaven gives a 'false assurance'. Really?

Who is Jesus coming back for at his second coming? The body that is turned to dust after death is not at home with the Lord. It will be the time of union of spirit and body. The resurrection body is described in 1 Cor 15:35-49 (ESV).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NLT) tells us what happens at death, ‘For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it’. So, at death our spirit returns to God and the body becomes dust in the grave.

What, then, is the meaning of 1 Thess 4:16-17 when it states that ‘the dead in Christ shall rise first’?

As indicated with Stephen, when he died from stoning (Acts 7:55-60) and looked into heaven, he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God in heaven and Stephen’s spirit was received there (Acts 7:59). Whether one calls it paradise, heaven, ‘my father’s house’, at death, the spirit of Christians goes to that place and the body goes to the grave to become dust. At the last day when Christ returns, the body as dust will be raised and there will be a union of the resurrected body and the glorified spirit. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

Oz

Works consulted
Wright, N. T. 2003, The Resurrection of the Son of God, series in Christian origins and the Question of God, vol. 3, Fortress Press, Minneapolis.

 

[keras]

You do not accept what I wrote about John 3:36 that believers have and continue to have eternal life as long as they believe. That's Bible.

True Christians do have the promise of eternal life; provided they remain strong in their faith. They die in the natural and they are then outside of time, so the next thing they will be conscious of will be standing before the Lord at the GWT Judgement.

Heb 9:27 says that 'Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment' (NIV), AFTER THAT does not state that it happens instantly they die.

No, for we who are alive, time passes, but for the dead, as the Bible says; they know nothing.

'Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise"' (Luke 23:43 NIV). So, absent from the body and present with the Lord for the thief meant at death he went to Paradise. Today's believe can go to no better place at death.

Luke 23:43 Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise. Proved by how Jesus went into sheol for 3 days after His death. Matthew 12:40

You claim the Christian dead going to live in heaven gives a 'false assurance'. Really?

Yes I do, because that is what it is. Nowhere does the Bible say that will happen.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NLT) tells us what happens at death, ‘For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it’. So, at death our spirit returns to God and the body becomes dust in the grave.

Yes, but the spirit is not conscious then, until the GWT Judgement.

What, then, is the meaning of 1 Thess 4:16-17 when it states that ‘the dead in Christ shall rise first’?

We know who they are from Revelation 20:4. Only the martyred saints will come to life at Jesus' Return. Stephen will be one of them.

 

[OzSpen]

Luke 23:43 Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise. Proved by how Jesus went into sheol for 3 days after His death. Matthew 12:40

That is not how the ASV, used on this forum, punctuates Luke 23:43. It would be superfluous to tell that thief that I am telling this to you 'today' when they were on crosses alongside one another on that day. That's your way of trying to promote soul sleep or Christians not going immediately into the presence of the Lord at death.

 

[bbyrd009]

Nah.. not worth the time.

I am in good company though...

"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies of the Bible and insist on a literal interpretation in the midst of much clamor and opposition."
- Sir Isaac Newton

funny to me that you are quoting a physicist here, stating a physical pov on Scripture tho

 

[keras]

That is not how the ASV, used on this forum, punctuates Luke 23:43. It would be superfluous to tell that thief that I am telling this to you 'today' when they were on crosses alongside one another on that day. That's your way of trying to promote soul sleep or Christians not going immediately into the presence of the Lord at death.

Proved by how Jesus went into sheol for 3 days after His death. Matthew 12:40

Bad to you, ignoring proof that you are wrong!

Call death 'soul sleep' or whatever, the truth is all the dead are not conscious and only know anything when they stand before the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgement. Any other idea, theory or fanciful notion is false.

 

[OzSpen]

Bad to you, ignoring proof that you are wrong!


Call death 'soul sleep' or whatever, the truth is all the dead are not conscious and only know anything when they stand before the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgement. Any other idea, theory or fanciful notion is false.

keras,

That is incorrect teaching as the story of the rich man and Lazarus demonstrates (Lk 16:19-31). The dead, believer and unbeliever, are conscious after death. That's Bible. To deny this is to deny the clear teaching of Scripture.

We also know it is false teaching because of what the OT states: 'the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it' (Eccl 12:7 NIV). The human body at death returns to dust while the spirit returns to God. There is no hint of 'the dead are not conscious' after death.

The NT also demonstrates the error you are promoting.

According to John 11:17-26, to live and believe is followed by never dying. Jesus was crystal clear that everyone who lives and believes in Him shall never ever die ultimately. Death for the believer does not interrupt this eternal life that began at the point of commitment to Christ while on earth.

Oz

 

[keras]

Consciousness after death?

Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death. This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they perish….

Many other passages [such as Psalm 6:5 and 30:9] support soul sleep and do not make sense if only talking about the body….

This same message of an end of consciousness was evident when Adam sinned. God plainly told him he would return to dust (Genesis 3:19). Adam was not conscious before creation, and God made it clear he would return to that unconscious state. Thoughts occur in the brain, which stops functioning and starts decomposing at death. Thoughts perish at death, just as the Bible says so many different ways….

Solomon also supports soul sleep:

But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

These scriptures prove there is no conscious being, for people after death.

The parables about Abraham and Lazarus the beggar, are just that and the dead persons soul returns to its Maker, where it awaits the Great White Throne judgement, at the end of time.

 

[Wormwood]

keras,

The OT says very very little regarding life after death, period. Thus, I would not rely on it for building doctrines about what happens after we die, just as I would not use the OT as the primary means of understanding the nature and persons of God. Jesus and the authors of the NT gave us profound insight regarding death, judgment, eternity and the nature of God that are found nowhere in the OT. Focusing your views on life after death using Ecclesiastes and the poetry of the Psalms is a mistake, Imo. As I mentioned before, Ecclesiastes is a book that is built on one false premise after another. The whole point of the book is to show how the author kept looking at life from the wrong perspective. The final conclusion of the book reveals that the rest of the book has been one futile pursuit and misunderstanding after another because the author looked at life as one "under the sun." Thus, the reflections about how the author saw both life and death are assumed to be mistaken.

Also, if we are going to use the Psalms as creating concrete dogmas, we should also conclude that the earth has "corners," our "hearts" beating in our chests have vocal cords that can rejoice, evil doers literally were eating other people like bread, God is literally a cup, a rock and a stronghold, and mountains skip for joy. There is a lot of metaphor and poetic expression in the Psalms that are meant more to evoke feelings then they are to create dogmas about the world, the appearance of God or a scientific anthropology.

 

[OzSpen]

Consciousness after death?

Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death. This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they perish….

keras,

It doesn't say that at all. Ps 146:4 (ESV) states, 'When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish'.

The 'he' who returns to the earth and 'his plans perish' refers to his body. We know that from other passages of Scripture.

Eccl 12:7 (ESV) confirms this: 'and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it'.

I agree with another poster that there is not much teaching on life after death in the OT, but this we know: There is no soul sleep promoted. The body returns to the grave and dust and the spirit goes to God who provided life to all people.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Consciousness after death?

Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death. This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they perish….

Many other passages [such as Psalm 6:5 and 30:9] support soul sleep and do not make sense if only talking about the body….

This same message of an end of consciousness was evident when Adam sinned. God plainly told him he would return to dust (Genesis 3:19). Adam was not conscious before creation, and God made it clear he would return to that unconscious state. Thoughts occur in the brain, which stops functioning and starts decomposing at death. Thoughts perish at death, just as the Bible says so many different ways….

Solomon also supports soul sleep:

But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

These scriptures prove there is no conscious being, for people after death.

The parables about Abraham and Lazarus the beggar, are just that and the dead persons soul returns to its Maker, where it awaits the Great White Throne judgement, at the end of time.

keras,

There is a sound alternate explanation of the verses given in support of soul sleep.

Note Matthew 10:28, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” It obviously indicates immortality if it cannot be killed, even though the exact words, “immortal soul,” are not mentioned. A soul that cannot die by being killed lives on and on forever. Just as the word, “trinity,” is not used in the Bible, the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught.

Jesus’ words are that we are not to “fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul” but that we should “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” In this verse, “soul” must refer to that part of a human being that exists after death. There is no other way around this verse. It cannot equate “soul” with “person” or “life.” It would be ridiculous to make it mean “do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the life,” or “do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the person.”

This verse has no meaning unless there is some aspect of human beings that lives on after the body is dead. When Jesus speaks of the soul and body he is obviously speaking of the entire person. The word “soul” represents the entire non-physical part of a human being.

Now to the second part of the verse: “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).” What does “destroy” mean? It is the Greek apolesai (aorist, active, infinitive of apollumi). Apollumi in the active voice means “ruin, destroy” (Arndt & Gingrich lexicon, 1957).

If I backed my car over one of my child’s favourite toys, I may have ruined or destroyed it. The crumpled toy was still there to be ruined. This does not mean that I annihilated it. I did not obliterate it from existence. It was still present but of no further use as a toy. This is similarly what the Greek means by “apollumi.” The body and soul in Gehenna have been ruined. We know from other places in the NT that this experience of the soul of unbelievers in hell is called, “everlasting punishment” (Matt. 25:46) punishing that goes on forever. Everlasting punishment does not equate with annihilation.

Does the soul continue to interact between physical death and the resurrection? These verses teach that:

(1) Unbelievers:

• In hell are conscious and in torment (Luke 16:23);
• Are “under punishment [after death] until the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9);

(2) Believers:

• Are immediately in Paradise at death (Luke 23:43);
• Long for a heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2);
  
  
• Are away from the body [at death] and are at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8);
  
  
• Deaths are gain (Phil. 1:21) and they depart at death to “be with Christ” (Phil. 1:23);
  
  
• Who are the martyred souls who “cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord . . .'” (Rev. 6:9-11). They were conscious after death so that they could speak to the Lord.

Believers will be like Christ after their physical death (see passages such as Rom. 8:29; 1 Cor. 15:49; Phil. 3:21; 1 John 3:2). They will be with Him (eg John 14:3; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 3:18; 4:17, etc.). They will share Christ’s glory (Rom. 8:18, 30; 2 Cor. 3:18; 4:17, etc.); they will share Christ’s reign (2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 2:26-27; etc.). As children of God, in that intermediate state, we will enjoy perfect fellowship with Christ (see Rev. 21:3,7). We will be worshipping Him (Rev. 7:15; 22:3) and be before His face (Matt. 5:8; 1 Cor. 13:12, etc.) [Spencer 2005, pp. 438-441].

Dr. Morey (2005) provides these verses as “the primary NT texts that refute soul sleep”: Matt. 22:23-33; Lk. 16:19-31; Lk. 23:43; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:1-10; Phil 1:21-25; Heb. 12:18-24 (from my article, Soul Sleep: A Refutation).

Oz

Works consulted

Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

Morey, R. 2005. “Jacob Prasch’s soul sleep heresy exposed!”, Faith Defenders, 3 November, available from: http://archive.li/nbljN (Accessed 10 July 2017).

Spencer, S. R. 2005, “Last Things, Doctrine of”, in Kevin J. Vanhoozer (gen. ed.) 2005, Dictionary for Theological Interpretation of the Bible, SPCK, London/Baker Academic, pp. 438-441.

 

[keras]

Very good, Wormwood, you make good points.
I still contend that there is no consciousness after death, until the Day of Judgement at the GWT.
I base this belief primarily on how the souls of the martyrs, kept under the Altar in heaven are allowed to cry out, Rev 6:9-11, and again at Rev 9:1-3. Then after Jesus Returns, only they come alive again. Rev 20:4
So if this is how the holy martyrs are kept; they were told to rest a little longer, until their number should be complete. Rev 6:11, then the idea that all the other Christians who died naturally are frolicking around in heaven, is somewhat pretentious, don't you think?
NT information like 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 and 2 Timothy 1:10, do not say when Christians will receive the promised immortality, but 1 Peter 1:3-5 says ; at the end of time and 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 For we must all appear before the Tribunal of Christ, where all will receive what is due to them; good or bad.
Some think these prophesies parallel the sheep and goat judgement, Matthew 25:31-34. But that is Jesus' Judgement of the nations, at the beginning of His Millennium reign, not the GWT Judgement of individuals, after the Mill.
Also 1 Corinthians 15:23-24...there will be a resurrection of those who died in Christ, at Jesus' coming, as per Revelation 20:4; BUT of just the martyrs, whose souls He will bring with Him at His Return.

 

[Wormwood]

keras,
Thank you for your response. I guess it is hard for me to respond to your thoughts on Revelation as I know we interprete this book in drastically different ways. However, allow me to respond to your other texts and provide some additional texts to what Oz presented in his very well written post.
1. I don't think it is pretentious to think Christians are present with the Lord if that basis is grounded in what I see the NT teach. I think it would be pretentious if it was based on my own reasoning or logic in the face of NT revelation. I just don't think this to be the case. I really do believe, as you do your view, that it is based the Bible...or else I wouldn't adhere to it. I have nothing personal to gain one way or the other.
2. I think Oz make adequate comments on the nature of "sleep" in the NT so I won't elaborate on that further. I am not sure what your point is regarding 2 Tim. 1:10 and how you believe it supports your views. I believe we are immortal and, as Jesus said, those who believe in him "will never die." Can you elaborate? I don't want to presume and address something that is not in line with your thoughts. I believe that 1 Peter 1:3-5 is referring to our reward and salvation that will be "revealed" at the end of time for everyone to see. I don't think this has anything to do with the discussion of soul sleep or being present with the Lord when the body dies. I agree there will be a great judgment where we will all appear (both good and bad) bodily before Christ. I don't think this conflicts with the notion that those who die in Christ are present with him. I don't think this verse discounts my view in any way.
3. I do think there are a number of verses that do directly contradict your view, whereas I believe concepts of "sleep" and the things you have mentioned in the verses above are easily compatible with mine. For instance, Jesus combatted the Sadducees about the issue of resurrection. His ultimate answer to them was God's comment, "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." To which, Jesus added, "He is not the God of the dead, but the living." The point here is that those who are near to God live because God is life. Nothing can be near to him and remain in death. Those who belong to God live because God is a God of the living. Moreover, on the mount of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were on the mountain with Jesus and spoke with him. It seems that their souls were not asleep, so why should we expect that those who "are the least in the kingdom of God are greater..." would endure soul sleep. If they are alive to God and present with him, why wouldn't we also be alive and present to him in spirit? Also, the author of Hebrews informs us that we "are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses...." The suggestion is that those who have been faithful before us are watching and expecting that we too will faithfully run our portion of the race just as they did theres. Granted, this could be metaphoric, but possibly not.

In sum, I just find that it is easy for me to reconcile the verses that are used to suggest soul sleep and that you have cited about judgment. However, I find it is not easy to reconcile the numerous verses that Oz and I have mentioned from the standpoint of your position. Verses that tell us to depart from the body is to be present with the Lord. The texts in Revelation that indicate souls are in the presence of God and that the beheaded for Christ reign wit him. Texts where we read of Moses and Elijah chit-chatting with Jesus like they are catching up on stuff on the mount of transfiguration. Texts were Jesus tells a dying man, "This day you will be with me in paradise." Texts where we read of a rich man and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom and torment prior to the resurrection of Jesus. Texts that tell us that God is a God of the living and that he IS the God of Abraham....not WAS...because all live unto him. To me, these verses and others simply cannot be reconciled with the doctrine of soul sleep. When we read of souls present to God, to Abraham and read narratives of souls of dead saints talking with Jesus, it just seems to directly contradict that souls are in an inanimate state of sleep until the day of Judgment. In fact, 1 These 4 says,

“For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.” (1 Thessalonians 4:14, ESV)

Why would Jesus "bring with him" those who have previously "fallen asleep" if they are not "with him" to begin with? This also contradicts the idea that the souls are sleeping in the grave, waiting to be awakened. It indicates to me, as do the other verses, that they are present with the Lord and he brings them with him at his appearing when he resurrects the righteous and unrighteous. Anyway, just more of my thoughts. I appreciate the conversation, brother.