Daring Death - a Sin?

[Sword]

yeah, I wasn't sure I'd come back when it turned into clowns debating health-wealth heresy... as if that's appropriate now.

So as A person who came to help you John You are now calling me a clown. Wonder if your attitude towards a brother is hindering you. I believe healing seen it dont it know it as an experiance almost daily.

 

[Sword]

and what He had given Peggy was an honor

God never said this to you. I am sorry to say this God does not contradict himself. He has spoken Through Christ. That attitude is not found from God any where is scripture. I would actully like to talk to you in depth about this misundestanding of God you and many others have.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

God never said this to you. I am sorry to say this God does not contradict himself. He has spoken Through Christ. That attitude is not found from God any where is scripture. I would actully like to talk to you in depth about this misundestanding of God you and many others have.

I am sorry. I can't comment on what God is telling you. Your walk is different from mine. I only know what God speaks to me; through His word, life and others that Follow Him. God tells me He uses precious things to demonstrate His love and power. He used the leapers commanded(by God) to be put without the camp. He used the raped victim pronounced unclean and to be stoned (by God) in the Old Testament. He used those plaque by sickness. The bleeding woman. The spoils of war. Those are the ones He came for. To redeem. The unclean. And then there is...The Lamb; perfect and without spot or blemish. God's most precious act of love. The Son taking our place. The only real definition of love we have in a fallen cruel world.

Have you ever witnessed a child display supernatual strength and peace in the midst of great suffering. Sword, why does God allow the suffering? Do you really believe it is because no believer was near by to heal them? That child is precious to God. Do you really believe God would allow a child to suffer because no one was handy to heal them? God speaks commands to "raise the dead" "heal the sick" and "cast out demons" to me also...but in a totally different manner: life, healing, and casting of demons come through letting go of this world and its hold over us; not by gripping and holding tighter to this world and what we have been deceived into believing is the root of joy, peace, and love: wealth and perfect health. Joy, peace, and love come from God. Not this world and holding onto it. God frees the captive. I agree with you that the Spirit wants to work through believers, but I believe what the Spirit wants and is doing: is releasing people from this worlds tight grip (bondage) and setting their feet on a foundation that cannot be shaken or moved by the circumstances of life. How is trust cultivated? How is intimacy cultivated? How is faith cultivated? His ways are so much higher than ours. He uses precious things to demonstrate His power. Just look at the ones He called friends and what this world did to them. Look at what this world did to THE SON.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

 

[bbyrd009]

God never said this to you. I am sorry to say this God does not contradict himself. He has spoken Through Christ. That attitude is not found from God any where is scripture. I would actully like to talk to you in depth about this misundestanding of God you and many others have.

...in your opinion.

not meaning to be obtuse here, but you must put yourself in the position of one of Job's friends imo

 

[Sword]

I am sorry. I can't comment on what God is telling you. Your walk is different from mine. I only know what God speaks to me; through His word, life and others that Follow Him. God tells me He uses precious things to demonstrate His love and power. He used the leapers commanded(by God) to be put without the camp. He used the raped victim pronounced unclean and to be stoned (by God) in the Old Testament.

And this is exactly why I would like to talk to you about all the misunderstanding about God. God never stoned her. God also never touched Job as is taught in all the tradictional churches.

 

[Sword]

...in your opinion.

not meaning to be obtuse here, but you must put yourself in the position of one of Job's friends imo

Not my opinion. All of this is from misunderstanding of God how could I possibly know what God said to her? I only know be cause it contradicts the whole of God in the scriptures

 

[Sword]

VictoryinJesus Please look at this to fully understand Gods love and mans misteaching.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not my opinion. All of this is from misunderstanding of God how could I possibly know what God said to her? I only know be cause it contradicts the whole of God in the scriptures

so you say, but there is equally compelling Scripture that contends with this; you are going to die someday, and some label such as "heart failure" or whatever will be listed for a "Cause of death," but really these are just putting labels on a symptom.

People die of stuff all of the time iow, so there is like a moving line in there somewhere. And where you draw it is kind of up to you. Even if i agree that great health is a symptom of a great walk.

But you must reap what you sow, and i believe faith healing as we define that today must be held up to that standard, as it is so obviously rife for abuse.

 

[bbyrd009]

and once again, Job had "3" friends for a reason, let the reader understand. It is natural to read Job when in travail, from his pov; but there are more rungs on that ladder

 

[OzSpen]

1-yes
2-hard to say, which makes #1 questionable in hindsight.
3-was going to church 3 times a week. but now, with what happened in the last few days - I've given up. I don't want anyone around, I just want to sleep.
4-I don't follow.

but no one has really addressed my question - whether I can dare death or not. :\

John,

I recommend a read of this short article, "Do we have an appointed time of death?" (Got Questions?)

It addresses some of the issues you raised regarding suicide and other ways to shorten life.

I asked you: '4 In spite of your disability, have you continued to trust God for your life and death?' Your response was 'I don't follow'. The point I was raising was whether your disability was a hindrance to your having a living, active relationship with God so God will decide when you did and you won't do it at your own hands.

If you are thinking of ending your life through suicide, that is your way of doing it and not God's way. He knows about it because of his foreknowledge, but it is not God's desire for you.

Don't you fear God enough to leave your life in His hands, even though you have a disability?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

nice. i might point out that Gehenna is on earth, whereas even that concept of hell in some afterlife is not.

bb,

You do not give one Scripture to support your case for Gehenna on earth. Yes, in the OT it was a burning rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, but Jesus used it symbolically in Mark 9:47 for hell/Gehenna. That does not mean the future place for the damned is on earth.

'And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell [Gehenna]' (Mk 9:47 ESV).

anyway, Tartarus, Hades, these are all Greek gods, why are they in the Bible you think?
funny to me that Gehenna, the only one on earth, is also the only one whose root, Hinnom, has no definition derivable from the name, whereas the others are well known

Please go back to post #39 where I provided J Gibbon's exposition on the use of Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus in the Greek NT.

Hades was the god of the underworld and of the dead in Greek mythology. He wasn't a Greek god but a god in Greek mythology.

Tartarus also was a god of Greek mythology to indicate the deep abyss and dungeon of torment.

It is not unusual for the Scriptures to take a cultural issue and use the same language, but with a new meaning. Paul did it on the Areopagus when he addressed those worshipping 'an unknown god' and told them of the Almighty God (Acts 17:23-28 NIV).

There's no point in my continuing this discussion with you as you deny what the Scriptures state ant try to obfuscate the clear meaning of the biblical text.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I have learned: God chooses how and when we die - no method can change this.

In the meantime, we are called to love through all diversity. I needed to start with myself

aspen,

Are you saying that if someone commits suicide that it is God who is choosing how they die?

Oz

 

[Stranger]

And this is exactly why I would like to talk to you about all the misunderstanding about God. God never stoned her. God also never touched Job as is taught in all the tradictional churches.

You're a liar. And your pseudo spirituality stinks. And your Dan Mohler stinks. And your worship of Dan Mohler is as vomit.

(Job 1:12) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(Job 2:4-6) And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

You are a liar because you have believed the lie and now want to distribute the lie.

Stranger

 

[Richard_oti]

So if God is better than us? Who here would let there child die of cancer just because they knew what they were doing when they started smoking an a ddiction btw.

Why did "God" allow Satan to take the lives of Job's children?
There is no replacement of a lost child, nor any lost loved one,

If you had the ability to set them free you are telling me you would let them die. That would be completly wicked. So hiow is God holy if He would allow them to die.

For what reason did "God" raise up Pharaoh? (cf Exo 9:16)
For what reason was Paul allowed to have a "thorn in the flesh"? (cf 2 Cor 12:7)

We are sick and dying because of a lack of knowleadge james tells us. Don not temp is what we have been taught thats why it passed your mind.

Not in my case.

Salvation and healing are the same Jesus said so. Is it easier to heal or forgive your sin. Same. Who actully smokes to test God no one.

I spoke with a Jew a long time ago. It was the opinion of that individual, that "God" protects the fools, and since it is foolish to smoke, therefore "God" would protect them.

Forget the variables. God paid the highest price for you for both healing . Come on He died for you whist you were in your sin.

For what reason was my wife allowed to pass away rather than to be "healed"?

 

[Sword]

Why did "God" allow Satan to take the lives of Job's children?
There is no replacement of a lost child, nor any lost loved one,

For what reason did "God" raise up Pharaoh? (cf Exo 9:16)
For what reason was Paul allowed to have a "thorn in the flesh"? (cf 2 Cor 12:7)

Not in my case.

Why is it not in your case but it was in your wives case?

I spoke with a Jew a long time ago. It was the opinion of that individual, that "God" protects the fools, and since it is foolish to smoke, therefore "God" would protect them.

Not to concerned with opinions of men.

For what reason was my wife allowed to pass away rather than to be "healed"?

I will requote James there are many amoung you who are sick and dying for lack of knowledge.
I assuame you and many others prayed for here.
I dont know how you prayed. I do know there is a right way and understanding of prayer that will get the job done. I also know most churches dont teach correctly in most of the bible.
So theres a lack of knowledge and understanding and thats one reason we die. Another reason we die is adams sin. Another reason we die is because we are not walking and doing what we are supposed to do. Many people laugh at people who believe God wants all healed today.

So I would need to ask how did you all pray If it was dear God So and so is a lovely woman Lord please heal her. That will not work in most cases. Because God has already paid for healing for all, just like salvation. Both have been provided. You believe for salvation as peter told the pilipian jailer. And you believe for healing. IE once you get that God hpaid for it with Christ at the wipping post. and you start to act like Christ and commaned sickness to go. That is how it works. When I pray for the sick I dont even mention God or speak to Him. I aint speaking to God but to satan. he came to steal kill and destroy. Jesus came to bring life. And we are here every day accusing God from misunderstanding.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip video media>

Sorry Sword, I don't watch video media.

Why is it not in your case but it was in your wives case?

I was referring to the "don't tempt". I wasn't taught that, only read it a long long time ago, it was funny that it came to mind at all.

Not to concerned with opinions of men.

Yet, you posted video, which from my perspective, is an opinion of a man to some degree or another.

I will requote James there are many amoung you who are sick and dying for lack of knowledge.

You could quote that, however you do not know that to be the case.

I assuame you and many others prayed for here.

You are perhaps assuming a long term illness. It was quick and sudden. Yet, she passed none the less. Based upon your further reply, aside from "original sin", you are in effect making her passing out to be due to a lack of knowledge / understanding or not walking the walk. Isn't that rather presumptive?

Assume for a moment, that she had knowledge / understanding beyond the average. Further, assume that her "walk", was well on the upper end of "walks". So assuming those things, why was she allowed to pass away, and not "healed" or protected?

I dont know how you prayed. I do know there is a right way and understanding of prayer that will get the job done. I also know most churches dont teach correctly in most of the bible.

I don't want to hijack this thread. However, perhaps you could give me an example of something.

So theres a lack of knowledge and understanding and thats one reason we die. Another reason we die is adams sin. Another reason we die is because we are not walking and doing what we are supposed to do.

And yet, until the return, death is inevitable. Sooner or later, it claims all of us.

<snip>

 

[Sword]

Sorry Sword, I don't watch video media.

Then why bother talking to anyone online. I posted a video of a man who in my opinion is walking as close to Chrislike as anyone on the planet. I have learened from Him and other men. I will only learn from them if they are walking the walk and he is. I gace my opinion of most men and what you find in them. This guy is the real deal. You cant preach the way he does and be false. You know them by there fruits.

I was referring to the "don't tempt". I wasn't taught that, only read it a long long time ago, it was funny that it came to mind at all.

Not sure how you missed it its in Gods word.

Yet, you posted video, which from my perspective, is an opinion of a man to some degree or another.

I spoke in genearal about men. We clearly see the huge amount of confusion in here let alone the 50.000 denominations. where men teach. there not all wrong but most are in most things.

You could quote that, however you do not know that to be the case.

Gods word is a fact and true. I said if you are calling on God to move, it will fail as that is not what He told you to do. He told you to deal with the works of satan. He never said call on me.

You are perhaps assuming a long term illness. It was quick and sudden. Yet, she passed none the less. Based upon your further reply, aside from "original sin", you are in effect making her passing out to be due to a lack of knowledge / understanding or not walking the walk. Isn't that rather presumptive?

Quick and sudden almost always happens to strong people in the Lord. In most cases it is exactly what I already quoted . God said it I quoted it and see it daily. You are sick and dying because of lack of knowledge. So its not presumptuous its scriptural. and people think auto think who does he think he is. I am only telling what God says. We are clearly told in Gods word. But we are NOT cleary taught from churches. If the ,ountian never moved its lack of faith. Faith moves the mountian nothing else. So understanding does not move the mountian faith does. See when we are taught properly by either God or a man who actually walks the walk, its blind leading the blind.

Assume for a moment, that she had knowledge / understanding beyond the average. Further, assume that her "walk", was well on the upper end of "walks". So assuming those things, why was she allowed to pass away, and not "healed" or protected?

We are all going to pass away as you say in the second paragragh from here. So why is it different for you wife? Why are you not asking about children who pass? See how it is almost always about us and our loss. it normal laungauge for us even in church.

Ok so she is walking better than most Christians, what do you concider walking better? Its not about nice people. Is it waht God called us to . Is that what she was doing. Was she imitating Christ? Becaus ethat is what we are called to do. Most Christian have no idea what walking like Chrst looks like or even means on a daily basis.

I don't want to hijack this thread. However, perhaps you could give me an example of something.

Cancer come out of her in Jesus name. Amen. Thast about as long as I pray for people. No confusion no shouting just taking authority and doing what God told you to do. With no bells and jargon with no leading from the Holy Ghost and no faers and no surrender. cancer your going, bye bye.

And yet, until the return, death is inevitable. Sooner or later, it claims all of us.

<snip>

We always quote the worst. two people went to heaven and never died. in an old covanant. We ahve a better covanant and we think the worst. all because we have mostly all been taught from a misunderstanding church/churches. Leader who have no clue and are winging it weekly.
Please look at the videos and then decide. Its nonsesne to saty I dont look at that but are happy to come in here and debate with tom dick or harry

 

[bbyrd009]

You do not give one Scripture to support your case for Gehenna on earth. Yes, in the OT it was a burning rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, but Jesus used it symbolically in Mark 9:47 for hell/Gehenna. That does not mean the future place for the damned is on earth.

'And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna

well, Gehenna is in earth, is not in Hades the abode of the dead, etc--a term Christ was aware of, and even used in other parables--so i guess the debate should center around when one might enter the kingdom.

Hades mythology has no concept of punishment after death, or "hell" like we understand that term, this came through Norse mythology i guess, the English translators having no better analogy to make. So to say that Christ had this in mind is pretty easily refuted by just asking a Jew what they think of our concept of "hell" even today.

 

[Sword]

You're a liar. And your pseudo spirituality stinks. And your Dan Mohler stinks. And your worship of Dan Mohler is as vomit.

(Job 1:12) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(Job 2:4-6) And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

You are a liar because you have believed the lie and now want to distribute the lie.

Stranger

Well one thing is sure we will find out in time wont we.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hades was the god of the underworld and of the dead in Greek mythology. He wasn't a Greek god by a god in mythology.

Tartarus also was a god of Greek mythology to indicate the deep abyss and dungeon of torment.

It is not unusual for the Scriptures to take a cultural issue and use the same language, but with a new meaning. Paul did it on the Areopagus when he addressed those worshipping 'an unknown god' and told them of the Almighty God

well, it might be nothing, but i find it pretty strange that Christ would choose to use Greek mythology and Greek gods to explain spiritual concepts anyway, and as i said Christ's understanding of Gehenna--not a myth or a god, but a real place with a symbolic meaning from an unknown word (not unlike "Unknown God" imo)--would not have embraced any concept of "after physical death," or He would have used "Hades."

I would argue that "Unknown God" is different precisely because it is not defined, and is not in the spirit of a Greek god, in the sense that we serve a God that we cannot completely know or define.

There's no point in my continuing this discussion with you as you deny what the Scriptures state ant try to obfuscate the clear meaning of the biblical text.

hey, i'm not the one telling people that they can only attain the kingdom of God after they die, if they perform the "correct" religious works, one time, at some man-made altar in a building, but do what you like. However i would be careful condemning what you cannot even refute, might be better to just admit that you do not know. I don't.

But while i'm here i may as well suggest again that our biggest desire, that of attaining some eternal party for the part of ourselves we consider "I," is an indicator that one has no desire to die to themselves as Christ commands anyway, and is surely just a great sales pitch that plays on our desires.

Christ came that we might have life, more abundantly, not death more abundantly. But of course no one wants to give up 10% of their hard earned money for that, right.