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michaelvpardo

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Thanks for your response, this is how discussions go, BY ASKING QUESTIONS. yes, true it can be rendered principality. but one must understand how it is used in context. example, Psalms 136:23 "Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever". if one would read the context it is stating the "condition" they was in. now Jude again, Jude 1:5 "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

if you would read the commentaries, example Gill's: Or "principality"; that holy, honourable, and happy condition, in which they were created", and some fell from. now, Pool's commentary Kept not their first estate; in which they were created, their original excellency, truth, holiness, purity, holiness & purity is a condition. again which they they fell from. now Barnes's commentary do a good job in using your definition of "principality" in the condition from which they fell. Verse 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate. A second case denoting that the wicked would be punished. 2Pet 2:4. The word rendered estate (αρχην) is, in the margin, principality. The word properly means, beginning, commencement; and then that which surpasses others, which is first, etc., in point of rank and honour; or pre-eminence, priority, precedence, princedom. Here it refers to the rank and dignity which the angels had in heaven. That rank or pre-eminence they did not keep, but fell from it.

in all three cases in Jude here, God is dealing with a condition of sin, by giving example of the past, (REMEMBER in verse 5) of A. his own people Israel who sinned in Egypt, and B. the angels who sinned in heaven. and C. the gentiles at large, (not his own) in the example of Sodom and Gomorrha. see, what Jude is doing is showing how God deals with sin, a CONDITION. hoped this helped.
You're mixing translations of Hebrew and Greek (unless your referencing the septuagint) when comparing translation from Old and New testament scripture and the languages are quite disparate, Greek being highly specific while Hebrew being more dependant on context. I don't know the languages, but I've been using resources like Strong's concordance for well over a decade. I own over 20 electronic versions of scripture and find translations limited by the preconceptions of the translators, the New World translation and the JPS Tanaach being two gross examples of abuses. I find on this site that participants choose translation variants that support their own views and the translations you've been quoting seem a little archaic in their language. Any particular reason you don't quote modern translations?
 

liafailrock

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To put in my 2 cents, oftentimes it is said that angels (i.e. of Genesis 6) cannot reproduce because of what Jesus said they neither marry or given in marriage. However, like a lot of scripture, people give it a private interpretation and case closed, that's it and "I don't want to hear it" attitude. But if one reads the book of Enoch, we find a similar curious passage. First a little background. There was something like 200 angels, all named, who came to earth and corrupted men by their teachings -- maybe God allowing this to a degree because after all mankind chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and wanted to be wise. So this was an early academia and its indoctrination of sorts LOL. They taught men subjects like astronomy, the art of warfare, and even cosmetics for the ladies! Enoch meanwhile was a righteous man and preaching righteousness as the bible clearly indicates. When these angels took on wives, Enoch warned them of the wrath of God. He said to the effect, you are immortal and the women are mortal creatures. It is not your place to marry them as you are not supposed to marry. It was not right. To this the angels were so shaken by the idea of judgement that they asked for Enoch's intervention he was that righteous and powerful in the Lord.

See the similarities in what Jesus said? Could he have been quoting Enoch? Now I'm open enough to consider other alternatives such as DNA tampering and demonic influenced or possessed men. Whether directly or through tampering, the result was the same: a race of giants. Some hypothesize that the spiritual component is given by the father, the physical by the mother thus such creatures are hybrid angels, and could really be the demons (disembodied spirits) seeking to torment and possess a human body like they once had. Isaiah says the Rephaim do not rise (possibly meaning are not given to a resurrection like sons of Adam). Thus they desire a human body to exist in , or maybe something to "haunt" such as dolls or poltergeist activity. Humans on the other hand sleep (as Enoch's book compared death to) until the resurrection. This is because we are mortal and die until resurrected again.

And one other interesting side road to consider are that "aliens" are perhaps from the Nephilim and advanced enough to escape to another planet until the time of the end "as in the days of Noah" come. Astronomers are interested in solar-like stars nearby and Zeta Reticuli (actually a dual star system) are solar analogues very similar to the sun. They are a little less massive and dimmer -- maybe explains the alien big eyes. LOL But there's also solar twins which like a human twin is very difficult to tell apart. 18 Scorpii is a solar twin. If God snapped His fingers and made the sun disappear and immediately replaced it by 18 Scorpii, you'd probably not notice much of a difference. If there are habitable planets out there around stars as these, it would be logical that such creatures could move to these environs until the end times. But in this case, I'm just using a creative licence bibilically based to explain these creatures IF they do exist. I think there's definitely a connection between aliens, poltergeists, hauntings, ghosts, and Nephilim of Genesis 6 is what I am saying.
 
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101G

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You're mixing translations of Hebrew and Greek (unless your referencing the septuagint) when comparing translation from Old and New testament scripture and the languages are quite disparate, Greek being highly specific while Hebrew being more dependant on context. I don't know the languages, but I've been using resources like Strong's concordance for well over a decade. I own over 20 electronic versions of scripture and find translations limited by the preconceptions of the translators, the New World translation and the JPS Tanaach being two gross examples of abuses. I find on this site that participants choose translation variants that support their own views and the translations you've been quoting seem a little archaic in their language. Any particular reason you don't quote modern translations?
Context is very important, but basic grammar is likewise. for example, in 1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all". by putting the verb "be" in front of "subject" change the meaning of the word subject. also how a word is used in a a scripture, is it a noun, verb, adjective... ect. which make a big difference in context. good hermeneutics do not interpret the scripture, but discover the meaning of the writer at the time of writing. and in discovering the writer mind of the time one might have to read 10 scriptures before and or after, or maybe a couple of chapter before or after the target verse. there are many tools one have to use in order to obtain, or discover the writer meaning. but we do have the mind of Christ, see 1 Cor 2:16.

PS I have many electronic bible translation also, dictionaries, and commentaries, but it's the KJV that make me research out the meaning. it might take me days, weeks, or even months to "discover" the writer meaning. sometime a scripture might seems simple, but another scripture read months ago might change one's view on this simple scripture. so it takes time to discover a scripture meaning.

thanks for the response, be blessed.
 

101G

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To put in my 2 cents, oftentimes it is said that angels (i.e. of Genesis 6) cannot reproduce because of what Jesus said they neither marry or given in marriage. However, like a lot of scripture, people give it a private interpretation and case closed, that's it and "I don't want to hear it" attitude. But if one reads the book of Enoch, we find a similar curious passage.
Not to say that you're right or wrong but when it come to the book of Enoch, it have been debunk, and cannot be compared or relied on in truth with the bible. check out this video, "The Case Against the Book of Enoch"

 

liafailrock

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Thanks. I'll try to watch it sometime but don't have over an hour right now. My point in Enoch was not the validity of the book, but the context as to what was supposedly stated by Enoch. He was saying that angels ought not marry and reproduce, not that they couldn't. Jesus made a similar statement so my point was one cannot justify that angels can't reproduce based on Jesus' statement since it's essentially equal to what Enoch said.
 

101G

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Jesus made a similar statement so my point was one cannot justify that angels can't reproduce based on Jesus' statement since it's essentially equal to what Enoch said.
I understand what you're saying, but remember the Lord Jesus don't lie. it's us who don't fully understand sometimes
 

tabletalk

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What these men didn't grasp were the things Jesus came revealing in His person and from the scripture, those hidden qualities, hidden by our fallen perception, of His mercy, His grace, and His love.
These are concepts that can make us very uncomfortable, but they have been understood by at least some men for 6 millennia. What these men didn't grasp were the things Jesus came revealing in His person and from the scripture, those hidden qualities, hidden by our fallen perception, of His mercy, His grace, and His love.

Good post, but you seem to be saying that the people of God, before Jesus came, did not grasp His mercy, grace and love. Would this include someone like Moses?
 

tabletalk

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Many times what they think is a child spirit, ( which simply cannot be the Truth, as Jesus answered one of my questions in this regard and He said :" All children belong to God ! " ), these 'child' spirits soon turn into something entirely different and often wreak havoc in peoples lives, and most of the paranormal investigators don't seem to have a clue what they are REALLY dealing with. Dangerous profession...

"Jesus answered one of my questions in this regard..."

Your post may be describing exactly the "spirit" you are communicating with, in your personal interaction (8 times) with the physical man Jesus.
 

pia

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"Jesus answered one of my questions in this regard..."

Your post may be describing exactly the "spirit" you are communicating with, in your personal interaction (8 times) with the physical man Jesus.
Nothing I can say can in any way convince you. You will have to seek the resurrected One yourself... What I would say is this, even though you say you don't know, be careful what you say and about whom you say it.... :)
 

michaelvpardo

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Good post, but you seem to be saying that the people of God, before Jesus came, did not grasp His mercy, grace and love. Would this include someone like Moses?
Moses spoke with the Lord face to face and interceded for Israel when the Lord's wrath would have consumed them. He obviously understood something of grace, mercy, and the love of God, but men like him and king David were the exception, not the rule.
Consider psalm 25 and verse 14: The friendship (or secret council) of the Lord is for those who fear Him, and He makes known to them His covenant.
This was written hundreds of years after the covenant at Sinai. The covenant of law was already known if not consistently obeyed, so what covenant was the psalmist referring to?
Moses had knowledge of things to come. He had a servant named Oshea, son of Nun, but the scripture tells us that he called his servant Joshua. Do you know what the name, Joshua son of Nun (Joshua Ben Nun) means? It was Joshua who would lead Israel into the land of promise after the death of Moses, and this because he was appointed by God as Moses successor to lead Israel over the Jordan (actually through the Jordan on dry land.) The book of Joshua is named after the name given Oshea rather than his real name. While some scholars claim that it is the same name, there is a subtle difference in meaning, and if it were the same, then why would God have revealed the difference in His word (we find Oshea listed as one of the men sent into Canaan to spy out the land before God cursed his generation to die in the desert, and this is also where we read that Moses called him Joshua.)
In the book of proverbs in chapter 30 and verse 4 we find, who has ascended into heaven or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name and what is His son's name, if you know?
The saints of the Old Testament waited for the coming of the Lord, because He revealed it to them. They looked forward to His coming, we look back and also to His return. Again, this was not all the nation of Israel, but only those whom God chose to reveal Himself to, those He revealed the eternal covenant to. These understood grace, but we also have the new testament verse about Jesus: For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17
This was always true, even before His birth.
 
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michaelvpardo

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"Jesus answered one of my questions in this regard..."

Your post may be describing exactly the "spirit" you are communicating with, in your personal interaction (8 times) with the physical man Jesus.
I once met a fellow of Jewish origin who was working in a jewelry store at a local mall. In the course of our conversation he told me that he had converted to Catholicism because of an experience that he had during the war in Vietnam. He had been on patrol with his unit and came under attack with nearly everyone being killed but him. He saw a man dressed in white walking among the dead and looking intently at them. He came to a sudden belief that this man was Jesus, the risen Son of God (and I assume that he must have heard at least some things about Jesus from his brothers in arms or elsewhere.) The apparition disappeared as suddenly as it had appeared, but this Jew, believing that the Roman Catholic Church represented Christianity, joined that church out of a fear of God and His Christ.
I don't know what it was that he saw, but if it convinced him that Jesus is His messiah I wouldn't call it evil.
 
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tabletalk

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I once met a fellow of Jewish origin who was working in a jewelry store at a local mall. In the course of our conversation he told me that he had converted to Catholicism because of an experience that he had during the war in Vietnam. He had been on patrol with his unit and came under attack with nearly everyone being killed but him. He saw a man dressed in white walking among the dead and looking intently at them. He came to a sudden belief that this man was Jesus, the risen Son of God (and I assume that he must have heard at least some things about Jesus from his brothers in arms or elsewhere.) The apparition disappeared as suddenly as it had appeared, but this Jew, believing that the Roman Catholic Church represented Christianity, joined that church out of a fear of God and His Christ.
I don't know what it was that he saw, but if it convinced him that Jesus is His messiah I wouldn't call it evil.

Is there a difference between a vision, and a real person in front of you claiming to be Jesus and telling you eternal truths?
I'm guessing that this man you talked with saw a vision. He pondered that in his heart and I hope he is now born again.
But, the other scenario is something else.
 

Copperhead

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I have taken an interest in this issue for some time. Whether fallen angels can reproduce or not, I think we sometimes have no ability to fathom what angels that are bent on mischief are capable of. One angel, in one night, had not problem slaughtering most of the Syrian Army in scripture. Also, read the text closer in Genesis 6, they took wives of all that they chose. I don't get the impression it was a volunteer thing. And angels appear as men throughout scripture. The writer of Hebrews even told us that we have entertained angels, unaware of that fact.

And does one not have a clue that all the UFO nonsense is not inter-dimensional activity that is going on with these same fallen angels? We know from both scripture (Rabbinical analysis of the first chapter of Genesis) and science that we live in 10 dimensions. There is a lot more to reality than we have any ability to grasp. We can do genetic engineering that is going to lead to some pretty wild stuff in the future. Is it all that remote to think that these fallen angels do not have the same ability, even beyond what we can imagine?

It is not wise to impose on the text only that reality which we understand. To envision that these misfit angels were doing the same style of sex we as humans use, could be rather myopic. They could have used genetic manipulation and implantation. it might have been traditional sex. No way to know. But the fact remains, they screwed up the gene pool. That is why God had to destroy all life. Only Noah and his family, along with the animals in the ark, were genetically pure. The scripture says that. When it says Noah was perfect in his generations, that says he was perfect in his genetics. The same word is used for determining if a lamb is unblemished for the sacrifice.

The main thing, is that Yeshua was quite clear that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the time of the end." Yeshua did not come to save angels. And if this cross breeding was going on, there is no salvation either. There is coming some major deceptions upon the earth. Genetic engineering including trans humanism is at our door step. Even cross species genetics is going on. It is said in scripture that those who take the mark of the beast, that they can no longer be saved. It is possible that genetic manipulation is in view. Later, it says during the wrath of God events that men will hide themselves and wish for death, but they will not be able to die. I have never met anyone who couldn't take their life if they wanted to. Seems these characters will not be able to do so, and that would imply they are not human in the normal sense. And they refuse to change their minds in relation to God.

Yeshua also talked about men's hearts failing them for what is coming upon the earth. I don't think we have any kind of grasp on what is going to transpire.
 

Sword

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Yeshua also talked about men's hearts failing them for what is coming upon the earth. I don't think we have any kind of grasp on what is going to transpire.
Just wanted to say I like this part. as in its true thanks
 

michaelvpardo

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Is there a difference between a vision, and a real person in front of you claiming to be Jesus and telling you eternal truths?
I'm guessing that this man you talked with saw a vision. He pondered that in his heart and I hope he is now born again.
But, the other scenario is something else.
I only met the man once and He self identified as a Christian, but whether or not he was born again, I just couldn't say.
 

michaelvpardo

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Just looked up the word translated as perfect in Genesis chapter 6, and it can mean quite a few things, but there is nothing to indicate any kind of genetic purity or purity of blood lines and that's not a surprise as these are modern concepts. One meaning is simply "complete" and interestingly enough there appears to be similar terminology used in the New Testament for mature Christians, where the words perfect and complete are used interchangeably in different translations. Regardless of what an accurate translation may render, there is no reason to assume Noah was physically perfect as the bible isn't a book of natural history or physical science, but rather concerns itself with the revelation of God in the person of His Son, a spiritual matter, not one of the flesh. Noah was perfect in His generation because he believed and feared God. He is called a preacher of righteousness, but we have no account of a single conversion from his preaching. Even if his genetic make up were entirely human, he had three sons who had three wives and we know nothing about their lineage except that their first ancestor was Eve.
 

pia

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Is there a difference between a vision, and a real person in front of you claiming to be Jesus and telling you eternal truths?
I'm guessing that this man you talked with saw a vision. He pondered that in his heart and I hope he is now born again.
But, the other scenario is something else.
Yes there is a difference between visions and when He comes into our realm.....You know, you really haven't thought it through, have you ? Because what you ARE saying is that you think that a spirit from the evil one, came and saved an atheist, showed Himself and all I ever did in the blink of an eye, then went on to teach me about The Love of God, the bible (later on when I started to ask ), has helped give me unshakable faith In Him and continues to this day, more than 3 decades later, to teach me and to inwardly change me...................So exactly why would the devil do that ? Which is what you are suggesting.......don't forget what Jesus said to the Pharisees :" Every manner of falsehood said about the Father and The son will be forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy spirit shall not be forgiven.." He said this when they accused Him of casting out demons by the power of
satan....... So 'tabletalk' perhaps you need to take a little care when you feel like accusing someone. Here is a scripture just for you from Matt. 11: 27 (Jesus speaking) " All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows The son except The Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except The Son AND the one ( ones ) whom The Son wills to reveal Him ( The Father and Jesus are one and they are the same ) "..... There are others where Jesus talks of those who will pay attention to His voice as well as those where the reality of Him, is described.....What of Thomas ? Do you think it was The Resurrected Jesus he saw ? What about Saul ( Paul )? I can guarantee you that The Lord always has someone or someones He can communicate with, has all along......
Peace to you Pia
 
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tabletalk

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Yes there is a difference between visions and when He comes into our realm.....You know, you really haven't thought it through, have you ? Because what you ARE saying is that you think that a spirit from the evil one, came and saved an atheist, showed Himself and all I ever did in the blink of an eye, then went on to teach me about The Love of God, the bible (later on when I started to ask ), has helped give me unshakable faith In Him and continues to this day, more than 3 decades later, to teach me and to inwardly change me...................So exactly why would the devil do that ? Which is what you are suggesting.......don't forget what Jesus said to the Pharisees :" Every manner of falsehood said about the Father and The son will be forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy spirit shall not be forgiven.." He said this when they accused Him of casting out demons by the power of
satan....... So 'tabletalk' perhaps you need to take a little care when you feel like accusing someone. Here is a scripture just for you from Matt. 11: 27 (Jesus speaking) " All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows The son except The Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except The Son AND the one ( ones ) whom The Son wills to reveal Him ( The Father and Jesus are one and they are the same ) "..... There are others where Jesus talks of those who will pay attention to His voice as well as those where the reality of Him, is described.....What of Thomas ? Do you think it was The Resurrected Jesus he saw ? What about Saul ( Paul )? I can guarantee you that The Lord always has someone or someones He can communicate with, has all along......
Peace to you Pia

You are accusing me of accusing you; it's getting complicated here!
I don't think I directly accused you. But I will say that I have no need, or desire, to see a person named Jesus. I do not worship a physical object, and hope I never will. Faith alone, in the Word of God is enough.
 
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pia

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You are accusing me of accusing you; it's getting complicated here!
I don't think I directly accused you. But I will say that I have no need, or desire, to see a person named Jesus. I do not worship a physical object, and hope I never will. Faith alone, in the Word of God is enough.
Boy you're going to be surprised aren't you..... :)