Little lies & secrets

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Josho

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does anyone have the right to know? does someone have the right to know your checking account info? if not, then you can deny them the answer to their inquiry. if you were at war are you going to tell the enemy where you and your fellow solders are?


also who said the commandment said anything about lying? I don't see the thou shall not lie here


Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

so in the reality of it where does lying about one's own personal effects included here?


but the context of which the Lord speaks against lying:


Lev_6:2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;

Lev 19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God. 11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. 12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

hence to deceive for wicked reasons. but again anything that is personal no one has the right to know unless you see fit to reveal it.


as even in the case of the law God says here what is good and evil, hence one must discern what is for and against what God says is good and evil.

if some one asks you if the car they are buying from you is safe, your honesty is required, if the enemy in battle seeks info, your not obligated to give anything, even to deceive your enemy would serve.

I hope my last comment gave you a bit of an idea, I was just worried about what other people thought and i try to avoid doctors, I am not one to say myob though, and that's the way i sometimes get out of stuff by little lies, to me it's just another way, maybe it's a more polite way, instead of telling someone to "mind your own business", I am a lot more honest these days though. Interesting interpretation of those Bible verses though. But where does it say (quoting you) "but again anything that is personal no one has the right to know unless you see fit to reveal it." in the Bible, is it like Abraham lying and saying that's not my sister that's my wife, for his sister's protection? I don't remember whether if that was Abraham or not, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure someone has a clue here about what I'm talking about.
 

DPMartin

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I hope my last comment gave you a bit of an idea, I was just worried about what other people thought and i try to avoid doctors, I am not one to say myob though, and that's the way i sometimes get out of stuff by little lies, to me it's just another way, maybe it's a more polite way, instead of telling someone to "mind your own business", I am a lot more honest these days though. Interesting interpretation of those Bible verses though. But where does it say (quoting you) "but again anything that is personal no one has the right to know unless you see fit to reveal it." in the Bible, is it like Abraham lying and saying that's not my sister that's my wife, for his sister's protection? I don't remember whether if that was Abraham or not, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure someone has a clue here about what I'm talking about.

Abraham didn't lie, he didn't volunteer the information. there is a difference, and again who's business was it, until it became an issue with the Pharaoh? but again he didn't lie to those who would kill him for his wife. Sarah was his sister as well as his wife so volunteering that she was his sister is no foul, and didn't volunteer she was also his wife is no foul.
 

Dcopymope

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Hmm good point i have never thought of that, then there are also lawyers, impersonators, actors, and yes singers too example, someone singing someone others song that they wrote. And apologies from op, that was a bit of a little lie too, used to be truth though, most people know about my eyesight now, dad told my boss the other day when i was going to get new contact lenses, ye people at my workplace never knew about it haha, it was embarrassing at when he was telling them, but ye turns i was worried about nothing.

But ya know little lies, avoiding them can be a tricky thing, today at work my chest was hurting, workmate said are you ok, i said ye i am fine, i was toughing it out through it, helping to move a heavy couch around, it was a struggle with a hurting chest, but i didn't feel like telling him, because he can be quite a worry wart too, didn't want to end up at a doc or anything hahah. Anyway it's nothing serious, it's just i have been recovering from the nasty flu, and chest has been hurting from all that coughing, it has been recovering, but I pushed my lungs a bit hard yesterday, playing too much Ocarina flute hahaha.

Now what about lying unintentionally, now sorry for using this as an example.... But Trump's former adviser or whatever he was Sean Spicer, he had little stumbles here and there and got some information wrong, now surely there must be nothing wrong with that kinda lying? And I'm sure God understands that, but we all get information wrong to certain extent, or most of us do.

What do you people think about lying unintentionally? Does the Bible have anything to say, about the odd slip up of the tongue? Or the innocent misinformation here and there without knowing it is misinformation?

I know for a fact that we all spew misinformation on a daily basis. We all listen to the media, both mainstream and "alternative" on a daily basis. How many lies or misinformation have they been caught in that we have unintentionally spread? I know for a fact that the official narrative of the 911 attacks is a lie from top to bottom and so do many others. The story has tons of holes in it that are so big you can drive a Greyhound bus through it. That didn't stop the masses from buying into it, willingly supporting the invasion of two countries in a so called "war" that was never declared as such by congress. If we are to be judged by every lie we believed to be true and spread, none of us would be in the book of life. We live in a world of duplicity, those who believe themselves to be immune, to be above being easily deceived are the most likely to fall for any lie, small and great.

As far as the Bible is concerned, there is one example in Exodus where the Hebrew midwives lied about the gender of the newborn babies to save their lives. Because these women feared God, not only did he not not condemn them, but rewarded them with houses.

(Exodus 1:15-22) "¶ And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: {16} And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. {17} But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. {18} And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? {19} And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. {20} Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. {21} And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses. {22} And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive."

This in no way means the lies themselves were condoned, because that would be a contradiction to his commandment about not bearing false witness, and it doesn't split hairs about the nature of the lie either. This is meant to be a testament to the fact that no man can possibly fulfill the law 100% in this world, no man ever has or ever will but Jesus Christ.
 
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Dcopymope

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Abraham didn't lie, he didn't volunteer the information. there is a difference, and again who's business was it, until it became an issue with the Pharaoh? but again he didn't lie to those who would kill him for his wife. Sarah was his sister as well as his wife so volunteering that she was his sister is no foul, and didn't volunteer she was also his wife is no foul.

Apparently the kings during his day were known for stealing other peoples wives and leaving the husband for dead. So Abraham understandably feared for his and told Sarai to tell the Pharaoh that he was his sister only. This is in essence a half-truth because the Pharoah didn't know she was also his wife. The whole truth and nothing but the truth was not given. Half-truths tend to be the best lies anyone can tell, anyone working in counter-intelligence knows this. Abraham did this multiple times, and made out like a bandit with cattle, silver and gold every time, and never once did God punish him for it, the reason why is simple, because God knew his heart was in the right place.
 

ScottA

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This should be an interesting discussion, is lying alright to protect someone else? What about to get out of a dangerous situation? Or what if it's just lying to avoid a trip to the doctor? Or a secret about your health, like eye or hearing problems, that you have never been honest about with others because of being embarrassed by it? Or what about a lie to hide your weakness? Or what about lying to keep secrets?

These are tough ones for some people, and yes i sometimes struggle in this area over some little things. To be honest I am embarrassed to admit that I am short-sighted to some people, but thank God for contact lenses haha, and i don't like anything written negative on my health records, drivers license, etc. And I'm not always honest when I'm not feeling right.

So is it ever okay to lie? Is it okay to lie to keep secrets?
Well, I am glad that you express lies and secrets as different terms. Because they are completely different: Even God keeps secrets...but does not lie.
 

DPMartin

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Apparently the kings during his day were known for stealing other peoples wives and leaving the husband for dead. So Abraham understandably feared for his and told Sarai to tell the Pharaoh that he was his sister only. This is in essence a half-truth because the Pharoah didn't know she was also his wife. The whole truth and nothing but the truth was not given. Half-truths tend to be the best lies anyone can tell, anyone working in counter-intelligence knows this. Abraham did this multiple times, and made out like a bandit with cattle, silver and gold every time, and never once did God punish him for it, the reason why is simple, because God knew his heart was in the right place.

Scott does make the point just because I don't tell you what you want to know doesn't mean I lied. Abraham didn't deceive anyone, he let them deduce for themselves what to think. and yes God doesn't lie, so what you are trying to say is that everything God lets the fool believe is because God didn't tell him, and that is liying. or is the fool a victim of his own thinking?

in the case of Egypt, Abraham walked away with great wealth, because of the Egyptian's thinking.
 
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Dcopymope

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Scott does make the point just because I don't tell you what you want to know doesn't mean I lied. Abraham didn't deceive anyone, he let them deduce for themselves what to think. and yes God doesn't lie, so what you are trying to say is that everything God lets the fool believe is because God didn't tell him, and that is liying. or is the fool a victim of his own thinking?

in the case of Egypt, Abraham walked away with great wealth, because of the Egyptian's thinking.

Its not that Abraham didn't tell the Pharaoh what he wanted to know, he in fact told the Pharaoh exactly what he wanted to hear, that Sarai was his sister, neglecting to mention they were married. "Fool" or not, the Pharaoh had no reason to assume anything contrary to what he was told. Its not that Satan didn't tell Eve what she wanted to know, it was quite the contrary. He told Eve exactly what she wanted to hear, and she fell for it hook, line and sinker. When it comes down to it, how well a lie is sold depends on.....well......how its actually told, not on whats NOT told. As a result of Abraham's half-truth, he made out like a bandit. I don't think Abraham thought he would have been given vast amounts of wealth had he told the whole truth, because he thought he wouldn't have lived to tell it anyway to start with.
 

DPMartin

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Its not that Abraham didn't tell the Pharaoh what he wanted to know, he in fact told the Pharaoh exactly what he wanted to hear, that Sarai was his sister, neglecting to mention they were married. "Fool" or not, the Pharaoh had no reason to assume anything contrary to what he was told. Its not that Satan didn't tell Eve what she wanted to know, it was quite the contrary. He told Eve exactly what she wanted to hear, and she fell for it hook, line and sinker. When it comes down to it, how well a lie is sold depends on.....well......how its actually told, not on whats NOT told. As a result of Abraham's half-truth, he made out like a bandit. I don't think Abraham thought he would have been given vast amounts of wealth had he told the whole truth, because he thought he wouldn't have lived to tell it anyway to start with.

but how is it you assume he didn't volunteer the information to receive great gain? the man simply setout to seek refuge and told his wife to say that she was his sister only that he wouldn't be killed. what happened after that is on the Egyptians.

hence Satan told Eve what wasn't true, where as Abraham didn't reveal something that was true, of which he wasn't obligated to reveal morally or ethically. two different acts.
 
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Dcopymope

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but how is it you assume he didn't volunteer the information to receive great gain? the man simply setout to seek refuge and told his wife to say that she was his sister only that he wouldn't be killed. what happened after that is on the Egyptians.

Not assuming anything, I'm only going by what's stated in scripture. In the real world, what Abraham did would be called a classic case of duplicity. Not everyone will see it this way because they want to hold up these Biblical characters to be something they never were, which in this case is being 100% honest all the days of their lives, something no man has ever achieved save Jesus.

hence Satan told Eve what wasn't true, where as Abraham didn't reveal something that was true. two different acts.

Actually Satan told a bit of a half-truth as well. He told Eve that eating of the tree would make them have the knowledge of good and evil like that of a god. The part he lied about was that they wouldn't die from eating it and live forever. You see how clever he is? This proves my point that half truths can be the best lie you can tell, and its exactly this kind of lie that started it all.
 
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Josho

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@FHII Good answer. And very true. :)


======================

What about when we in faith confess who we are in Christ,yet in "fact" we are not there yet.

Joel 3:10
Let the weak say, "I am strong"
Let the poor say, "I am rich"
Let the blind say, "I can see"
It's what the lord has done in me.

...

I'm sure many would argue against that, but it's a great point and if it's written in God's word it's truth and isn't a lie.
 

breathofdesire

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This should be an interesting discussion, is lying alright to protect someone else? What about to get out of a dangerous situation? Or what if it's just lying to avoid a trip to the doctor? Or a secret about your health, like eye or hearing problems, that you have never been honest about with others because of being embarrassed by it? Or what about a lie to hide your weakness? Or what about lying to keep secrets?

These are tough ones for some people, and yes i sometimes struggle in this area over some little things. To be honest I am embarrassed to admit that I am short-sighted to some people, but thank God for contact lenses haha, and i don't like anything written negative on my health records, drivers license, etc. And I'm not always honest when I'm not feeling right.

So is it ever okay to lie? Is it okay to lie to keep secrets?
It's better to keep silent than even say a little white lie.
 
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Josho

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It's better to keep silent than even say a white lie.
That's always good advice, but even to keep silent can be a struggle for some, look at those in Myanmar and North Korea places where Christianity is pretty much illegal, if a cop askes someone if they are a Christian in one of those countries, even to remain silent can have it's consequences, but to tell the truth to them is a very courageous thing to do, and Christians will be greatly rewarded in heaven for proclaiming I am a follower of Jesus in such situations.
 

breathofdesire

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That's always good advice, but even to keep silent can be a struggle for some, look at those in Myanmar and North Korea places where Christianity is pretty much illegal, if a cop askes someone if they are a Christian in one of those countries, even to remain silent can have it's consequences, but to tell the truth to them is a very courageous thing to do, and Christians will be greatly rewarded in heaven for proclaiming I am a follower of Jesus in such situations.
Lying ends in worse calamity, than loosing your life.
 

Josho

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Lying ends in worse calamity, than loosing your life.

If that were the case even for the smallest things, we would be all in a lot of trouble if it weren't for God's grace, still we should each try our best to be honest, and if we lie, which just about all of us do, God's forgiveness is there for us.

Nobody is perfect, and 100% honesty is a very hard thing for any human to achieve, to those who are 100% honest, you are doing amazingly well.
 
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amadeus

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Now what about lying unintentionally, now sorry for using this as an example.... But Trump's former adviser or whatever he was Sean Spicer, he had little stumbles here and there and got some information wrong, now surely there must be nothing wrong with that kinda lying? And I'm sure God understands that, but we all get information wrong to certain extent, or most of us do.

What do you people think about lying unintentionally? Does the Bible have anything to say, about the odd slip up of the tongue? Or the innocent misinformation here and there without knowing it is misinformation?

In the OT we read this:

"If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him." Lev 5:15-16

While we are not under that law as were the children of Israel, nonetheless the point made is that ignorance is no excuse. When we become aware of our error, we are responsible for it and need to amends for it. The principles of God have not changed because He has not changed. In the NT and more to the point we read this:

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37

If the words are spoken in ignorance or through carelessness, it really does not change the fact that we are responsible to make it right as best be can. God understands where we are in it and what we can or cannot do. What we can do to fix we certainly must do.

A real example would we that we teach someone something about God's Way which we believe is right, but later we become convicted that our belief was in error. It was really lie, even though we did not realize it at the time we told it. Will not God expect to do what we can to fix it? Our ability to fix may be limited and in some cases impossible, but when we can fix it even in part, should not we try to do so?
 
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breathofdesire

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If that were the case even for the smallest things, we would be all in a lot of trouble if it weren't for God's grace, still we should each try our best to be honest, and if we lie, which just about all of us do, God's forgiveness is there for us.

Nobody is perfect, and 100% honesty is a very hard thing for any human to achieve, to those who are 100% honest, you are doing amazingly well.
Lying is satans main tool, but I digress. This is a very tough world, where it's easier to lie than tell the truth. No one wants to hear the truth, it doesn't sell.
 
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Josho

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In the OT we read this:

"If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him." Lev 5:15-16

While we are not under that law as were the children of Israel, nonetheless the point made is that ignorance is no excuse. When we become aware of our error, we are responsible for it and need to amends for it. The principles of God have not changed because He has not changed. In the NT and more to the point we read this:

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37

If the words are spoken in ignorance or through carelessness, it really does not change the fact that we are responsible to make it right as best be can. God understands where we are in it and what we can or cannot do. What we can do to fix we certainly must do.

A real example would we that we teach someone something about God's Way which we believe is right, but later we become convicted that our belief was in error. It was really lie, even though we did not realize it at the time we told it. Will not God expect to do what we can to fix it? Our ability to fix may be limited and in some cases impossible, but when we can fix it even in part, should not we try to do so?

Good post, but what if we never become aware of that error? Would it be a case of innocence like a child? And I never found anywhere in the Bible saying thou must be educated, so what if we don't have the best intellect? Not everyone understands what is truth and fact correctly and it gets misinterpreted around like Chinese whispers.

And where do you believe grace of God falls into place on this topic?
 
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amadeus

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Good post, but what if we never become aware of that error?
In my own history many years ago, I sinned badly against a young lady in Germany with my words and my laughter. I wasn't serving God at the time, but He smote hard in the heart. When I was drawn to God few years later, I was reminded of my offense. I was back home in the USA with little likely hood of ever returning to Germany and no possibility of finding that girl and properly apologizing.

What I did was stand up during a church service and apologize to God and His people on her behalf. It was not as good as talk to her, but it was the best I could do. I know that God accepted what I did as my part of making it right. That happened more than 50 years ago, but I still remember every detail like it was yesterday. God accepted my apology, but He never would remove the memory of my error which is still painful to me after all of these years.

If you never become aware that there was an error, God has then wiped the slate clean. If He had not, He would have seen to it that it came to your knowledge so that you could take corrective action.
 
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Angelina

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I think that there is wisdom in not telling people everything. One of the hardest things to do sometimes, especially if you are a believer, is to keep some thing to yourself and God...
 
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