Was James confused?

[bbyrd009]

***

When a sermon is preached based on the book of James to those under grace you are saying it is for them too. Which it isn't.

so you say, but imo the Church is now Israel, and even if It isn't your works are going to be judged, not your opinions, nor your beliefs, that i can see. Just your works. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law, does not mean that you do not have to fulfill the law also. Paul has a discourse on this, the one that goes "heaven forbid!" at the thought of those under grace violating commandments.

Now are they bound by those commandments? No, because they have been freed from the Law of sin and death by Christ's sacrifice, and know to forgive sins against themselves, that they may be forgiven, not demanding an eye for an eye even, and learn to confess sins one to another, denying self and following Christ, iow if one is still worrying about merely breaking commandments they are missing the point; Christ asks much more than that of us.

"Count the cost."

 

[bbyrd009]

I just love it. All those people who think they are so good to others when in fact they aren't that good. Observe those trying to get out of the church but are blocked by those who are so oblivious to others that they block to door way to talk to others. Observe how those in a Sunday School class will not say what they really believe because it might damage their relationship with others.

i kind of noted already that you are holding up your end here from the perspective of a congregant in an est'd church setting, and i have to agree when the focus is turned into "trying not to sin" the whole concept gets warped. I wish i could report churches that were free of that behavior, but even a Mennonite one that i attend goes through the same stuff, imo it is just the human condition, our urge to politicize and stratify.

i once might have counseled to run from that church, but God might have sent you there specifically for all i know, so i don't do that anymore.

 

[Armadillo]

These FACTS should be seen.

Listing facts aren't enough. Get to the heart of it!

James could only understand Grace in small pieces and just like some here on the forum preaching law and works, they too have not come into the full understanding of Grace. Pay special attention to James 4:6,7 the heart of the book.

But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”

Favor is Grace too and James makes the connection to Grace through Proverbs 3:34, he didn't come up with this on his own. James was written before Paul wrote Romans 5:20.

Proverbs 3:34, Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Romans 5:20, The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more

And then there is James 4:7,

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Submission. Humble yourself. Submit. Humility. Do this and you walk in God's Grace.

There is so much pride busting to be done, there are so many rich young rulers, it's sad to see believers put themselves under the law and then there is Zacchaeus, full of joy, receiving Him joyfully in Grace. Who has it better?

Luke 19:6, And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

The problem, as I see it, is that the religious want to judge others as to what works they should be doing and they use the law to determine that work. If I, through my writings, help one soul to escape the fires of the "Lake of Fire" then I have done a good work but it is not listed in the works crowds list of works. But it is in God's list.

All threads eventually end up law and works, works vs grace, blah blah. Keep boldly preaching H. Richard, Isaiah 55:11, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't have to demonstrate my salvation by my works.

i agree, imo that is the wrong perspective to have about works/good deeds.

i would envision it more by taking someone else as an example, maybe:
they do not have to do that either, right?
yet how do you know them? By their works.

Iow whether you have to demonstrate your faith by your works or not becomes irrelevant in the face of the fact that you are going to demonstrate your faith by your works whether you set out to or not.

What you do demonstrates where your faith is, see, without you even trying, or "having to."

 

[bbyrd009]

And if that is not enough then all the works a person can do would not satisfy the religious.

ya, i wouldn't be aiming to satisfy any...other people, either, not sure why this is a standard for you. I do good deeds because i prefer them done to me, and i don't expect too many of them to go unpunished, so to speak. Doing the right thing usually makes a few people pretty upset. I guess if you're really doing it right there is a price on your head lol

 

[bbyrd009]

***

When a sermon is preached based on the book of James to those under grace you are saying it is for them too. Which it isn't.

it is for those with ears to hear imo, Richard. If it isn't for you right now for whatever reason, i don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. But Jews have to find grace also, i think, otherwise God becomes a respecter of persons. Truth given to some Jews is still truth, and the concepts you are rebelling against are wholly supported in many other places in Scripture, it seems to me.

 

[ScottA]

So what do we do with James's writings and specifically with the notion that faith needs works? And what do we do with Paul's teachung that faith and works don't mix?

I have said this before: I am not against works and I believe every one sgould do good as mu h as they can. Its just not what we are judged by. Neither is our faith proven by our works.

Yes we are to be obedient. But obedient to the whole word and the word said we are not under the law nor are we judged by our works.

It befuddles me how anyone doesn't want ro accept that. Yes, you get to do works but you aren't judged by them. That's foid news because there aee a lot of people who are less generous than me. And a lot more who are more so.

If the shoe fits... In other words, James wrote of putting feet on our faith, which is good: a tree is known by its fruit. And there are those who will abide in the world for a time, who are not ready to bear the spirit, nor to walk in it as yet. These should do good works, rather than be idle and tempted in the flesh or burn with passion.

But, for those who can receive it, we should press on to the fullness of Christ whom has entered into the rest and glory of the Father, whom is spirit. If we can bear it, we are holy taken over by the spirit. This is our walk, even in the world: the greater equipping of the spirit to do "greater works than" those done by Christ in the flesh, as He said. To us, to live is Christ. Holy given to spiritual things, we do not desire what the world desires, but rather what the world needs. We are not our own. These are the times of which it is written, that God would pour out His spirit upon all flesh, some to their own shame to everlasting contempt, some to the glory of God and to eternal life:

Revelation 22:11
"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

 

[H. Richard]

Listing facts aren't enough. Get to the heart of it!

James could only understand Grace in small pieces and just like some here on the forum preaching law and works, they too have not come into the full understanding of Grace. Pay special attention to James 4:6,7 the heart of the book.

But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”

Favor is Grace too and James makes the connection to Grace through Proverbs 3:34, he didn't come up with this on his own. James was written before Paul wrote Romans 5:20.

Proverbs 3:34, Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Romans 5:20, The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more

And then there is James 4:7,

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Submission. Humble yourself. Submit. Humility. Do this and you walk in God's Grace.

There is so much pride busting to be done, there are so many rich young rulers, it's sad to see believers put themselves under the law and then there is Zacchaeus, full of joy, receiving Him joyfully in Grace. Who has it better?

Luke 19:6, And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.



All threads eventually end up law and works, works vs grace, blah blah. Keep boldly preaching H. Richard, Isaiah 55:11, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

***
A good sermon but does not say whether James is lying in James 1:1 or the theology of men is lying. You seem to want this thread to be about works vs faith or faith + works but I am here saying you must take a stand on James 1;1 or the religious theology of today. James said his writing was to the Jews, Most in the main stream Christian religion teach his writings are to the Gentile church TOO.. You can't have it both ways. Either it was written to the Jews AS JAMES SAID or James lied. Main stream Christianity implies the James lied.

 

[H. Richard]

so you say, but imo the Church is now Israel, and even if It isn't your works are going to be judged, not your opinions, nor your beliefs, that i can see. Just your works. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law, does not mean that you do not have to fulfill the law also. Paul has a discourse on this, the one that goes "heaven forbid!" at the thought of those under grace violating commandments.

Now are they bound by those commandments? No, because they have been freed from the Law of sin and death by Christ's sacrifice, and know to forgive sins against themselves, that they may be forgiven, not demanding an eye for an eye even, and learn to confess sins one to another, denying self and following Christ, iow if one is still worrying about merely breaking commandments they are missing the point; Christ asks much more than that of us.

"Count the cost."

***
IMO the teaching that the church is Israel is a false teaching. Israel rejected Jesus and they have been set aside until the fullness of the Gentiles has been reached. But all this is not the subject of the thread and I will not go there.

As for seeing works there are may in the churches that do what they see as good works. Many work around the church, give to charities etc. But not one of them will tell anyone that Jesus paid for all their sins on the cross. Most do not really know anything except that the church says they need to do good works. How is that preaching the gospel of grace?

 

[bbyrd009]

But not one of them will tell anyone that Jesus paid for all their sins on the cross.

hmm, that has not been my experience tbh. I seem to hear that one a lot myself

 

[bbyrd009]

Most do not really know anything except that the church says they need to do good works.

well, good for that church then imo, and if most do not bother to crack a Bible open and get the whole story, then that is on them i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

How is that preaching the gospel of grace?

why anyone would go to a guy who has signed a Contract for Jesus is beyond me anyway, Richard. I'd let the dead bury the dead there

 

[H. Richard]

i agree, imo that is the wrong perspective to have about works/good deeds.

i would envision it more by taking someone else as an example, maybe:
they do not have to do that either, right?
yet how do you know them? By their works.

Iow whether you have to demonstrate your faith by your works or not becomes irrelevant in the face of the fact that you are going to demonstrate your faith by your works whether you set out to or not.

What you do demonstrates where your faith is, see, without you even trying, or "having to."

***
I believe in the gospel of grace as Jesus gave it to Paul. Jesus atoned, paid for, all the sins of the world and that includes mine and anyone else that will believe it. But most of the works crowd do not believe it. I have placed my belief, faith, trust and confidence in what Jesus did for me on the cross. And yes, you can not see my faith but God does and it is to Him that I have committed my eternal life.

Matt 12:38-40
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
NKJV

 

[Helen]

I was going to post a long post here ..but so many have posted 'good stuff' I don't really have to.

I see no problem..Paul is hammering away at salvation by faith..and getting the hearers free from mixing law with grace...and James as I see it BUILDS upon that, by saying ..being saved by grace does not mean that we are free to live how we like...we live as a mirror and refection of the Father heart..this must be seen in us if we really believe that we are saved by grace then it will SHOW in our life.

I thought @GodsGrace was a great post..#200 ( because it was what I was going to write!! ha! )
But by the time I get here...it is two pages back...this thread has moved on fast!

 

[H. Richard]

If the shoe fits... In other words, James wrote of putting feet on our faith, which is good: a tree is know by its fruit. And there are those who will abide in the world for a time, who are not ready to bear the spirit, nor to walk in it as yet. These should do good works, rather than be idle and tempted in the flesh or burn with passion.

But, for those who can receive it, we should press on to the fullness of Christ whom has entered into the rest and glory of the Father, whom is spirit. If we can bear it, we are holy taken over by the spirit. This is our walk, even in the world: the greater equipping of the spirit to do "greater works than" those done by Christ in the flesh, as He said. To us, to live is Christ. Holy given to spiritual things, we do not desire what the world desires, but rather what the world needs. We are not our own. These are the times of which it is written, that God would pour out His spirit upon all flesh, some to their own shame to everlasting contempt, some to the glory of God and to eternal life:

Revelation 22:11
"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

***James did not write to the grace church so how can he put put feet on our faith?

Faith is not works of the flesh. It is believing what God says. In Paul's gospel. you know the one that Jesus gave him, the only requirement for salvation is to believe in the work of the cross. The works crowd says this is not enough.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

 

[Helen]

So what do we do with James's writings and specifically with the notion that faith needs works?

I have a bit of a problem with the phrase. " faith needs works"
I would say that there is something very wrong...or immature in the life of a Christian saved by grace through faith...who does not REFLECT and heart ( works) of Father God.
But I am still reading one page back, and have not read the last page fully.
I can't even re-find the post that I quoted you from!!

 

[H. Richard]

I was going to post a long post here ..but so many have posted 'good stuff' I don't really have to.

I see no problem..Paul is hammering away at salvation by faith..and getting the hearers free from mixing law with grace...and James as I see it BUILDS upon that, by saying ..being saved by grace does not mean that we are free to live how we like...we live as a mirror and refection of the Father heart..this must be seen in us if we really believe that we are saved by grace then it will SHOW in our life.

I thought @GodsGrace was a great post..#200 ( because it was what I was going to write!! ha! )
But by the time I get here...it is two pages back...this thread has moved on fast!

***

Did you read where Jesus said to do your works in private.

Matt 6:1-4
6 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
NKJV

Matt 23:4-5
4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
NKJV

 

[GodsGrace]

***

Did you read where Jesus said to do your works in private.

Matt 6:1-4
6 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
NKJV

Matt 23:4-5
4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
NKJV

Now we're getting somewhere.
You admit that JESUS did say to do works.
Great.

Now you could reread the Mathew verse you quoted and understand that Jesus was talking not BOASTING
About your good works...

He does want us to do them.

When Jesus tells us to do something...
We should obey.
John 14:15

 

[Helen]

***

Did you read where Jesus said to do your works in private.

Matt 6:1-4
6 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
NKJV

Matt 23:4-5
4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
NKJV

Yes, read it lots of times...it isn't a law!!
Just as the face of Moses glowed with the overflow of God's glory after being with the Lord 40 days...so our souls should glow through our inner and outer life ...when our lives reflect the relationship we have daily with the living God.

I believe the 'glow' the shines from our life speaks. As the old saying goes:-
"Preach the gospel at all times...if necessary, use words."
I have said before...good works are those things that flow out of us...I believe this is what James is speaking of. The only way our faith can be seen is the refection of God in our life ( works)
Unless James is speaking here about bring out the last five grains of oatmeal, praying over it to increase, cooking it, and feeding five kids with it. Now that work would be your faith in action!!
And for sure not done in secret!!

The scripture you quoted are because of the pride of the Pharisees showing off how "holy" they were....which was all a fake.

 

[ScottA]

***James did not write to the grace church so how can he put put feet on our faith?

Faith is not works of the flesh. It is believing what God says. In Paul's gospel. you know the one that Jesus gave him, the only requirement for salvation is to believe in the work of the cross. The works crowd says this is not enough.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

The faith that James preached was not of grace per se, but faith in the coming of Messiah. Whom had now come, but had also gone (to the Father). These were not all ready to receive all as being "finished", just as it is with some even today. They could not fully bear all truth which was made available by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, James preached good works until such a time that they might enter into their rest, some of whom would not do so until death. Thus, their faith in the coming of Messiah was preserved. They were not saved by their works, but rather by their faith, which is the power of God unto (resulting in) good works.

Nonetheless, there were indeed those whom had neither faith nor any good works, nor did they believe. These are not the dead in Christ who participate in the second resurrection unto everlasting life, but rather unto everlasting contempt. It is that generation whom witnessed all things come to pass.