Was James confused?

[GodsGrace]

***

So if a person gets sick they should do as the Law says to do; right???????

"That other sheep is US. Show the scriptures that say that.

You have, as yet, to say whether you believe Jesus when He said """"""""HE ONLY CAME TO THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL""""""".

Oh.
Well let me make it very clear:

JESUS DID NOT COME ONLY FOR THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL.

First of all if you've studied the Covenants you will know that each covenant continues on the previous one.
The Abrahamic Covenant stated that ALL NATIONS will know Jesus.
The Davidic Covenant stated that Jesus will be the KING of all nations.
(I'm not using proper language since I'd like everyone to understand what I'm saying and cannot do a lesson to accomplish this).

So, here we already can understand that Jesus and the N.T. , ALL of the N.T., is not only for Israel, but for ALL who would believe in our Lord.

Second, it is commonly accepted that Jesus had other sheep to which He must tend.
John 10:16

Jesus HIMSELF said that He has other sheep who will hear his voice and know His voice and that He must also bring them into the fold. Yes, this was referring to the gentiles, and WE are the gentiles. (since we are NOT Jewish, eveyone not jewish was a gentile).

This theme is also explained by Jesus in the parable of the Wedding Banquet.
Mathew 22:1-14

Those invited had work to do and did not come to the wedding, so those outside in the street were invited in.

How about Mathew 28:19??

I don't understand. Are you saying that Jesus came only for the Jew???


And regarding people getting sick and doing what Jesus said to do.
Please don't be demeaning...(or maybe you're truly seriously wrong..)

Jesus abolished the Ceremonial Law. (which would concern the sick)
Jesus abolished the Civil Law.
He DID NOT abolish the Moral Law.

 

[GodsGrace]

This thread dropped its original ideas and has degenerated into works _+ faith. It is obvious, to me, that there are many in the churches claimiing their works but have no idea as to what they have faith in. Many can claim their works but it doesn't mean a thing if they can't say what that faith is in.

What seems to be missing is what the word FAITH means to everyone. The word, by itself means nothing. I have stated, many times, that my faith is in what Jesus did on the cross that atoned(PAID) for all the sins of the world including mine. Since most are big to talk about their works to show their faith then how about telling us what your faith is in.

But many say my faith, as stated above, is """EASY BELIEVEISM""; not sure that is really a word. So how about telling what YOU have faith in.

Based on the results of this thread it seems that most have faith in their works since that is as far as they will go. But they are quick to say my faith in Jesus' works is not enough.

You don't know what EASY BELIEVISM is?
It's a REAL term.
Find out about it if you're going to have a thread like this.
Seriously.

 

[GodsGrace]

I hope this is not taken the wrong way. It is not intended to offend anyone. These are my personal thoughts based on what the scriptures actually say and put in this study.

The old saying that James and Paul were teaching the same thing, or that the word “works” each used do not mean the same thing, just doesn’t get it for me. --- One must understand that Paul addressed his letters to the Gentile churches he founded. James wrote his letter to the Jews who were scattered over the other countries (James 1:1). James’ letter was not addressed to the same churches that Paul’s letters were addressed

The study:

Was James confused? Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.

Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV

BUMP.

What ARE you talking about?
It sounds like ONLY FAITH is necessary for salvation....
It sounds like Easy Believism
It sounds like Hyper Grace.

If it looks like a duck...

 

[GodsGrace]

Indeed. And grace in measure is the same as law or works in measure. Part grace and part law. Which doesn't work. It is grace or nothing for the child of God.

Stranger

How do you explain Mathew 5:17?
Why encourage new Christians who don't really understand being UNDER the Law that nothing is required of them?

We are not UNDER THE LAW,
but we MUST follow the Law.

Are you saying we don't have to??

 

[GodsGrace]

If you don't understand it or even think that it may be erroneous, why not put it on the shelf rather than throw it out. Who among us understands perfectly everything that God has provided for us in scripture? Not I, certainly! What scholar or saint or prophet had understood or presently understand all?

We do not obtain God's truth by our logic alone, for we may well find ourselves thereby in opposition to God, Himself. Do we live for God by knowledge alone or is not faith also a necessary part of out walk with the Lord?
We do have some knowledge which God has given us, but is it not by faith that we are to walk?

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

And what is faith?
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

And where is it that knowledge of God and the things of God comes from?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

The following verse may cause some confusion in this regard:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

I understand that verse to mean that we need to study in obedience to God. He may or may not through the Holy Spirit give us the answers we seek through that study. The key for me is we do study, but our primary purpose is to obey rather than to learn. The learning comes through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost may or may not lead us to truth through our studies of scripture.

Another verse that relates here is this one:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Study without the Holy Ghost leading us will make us weary in our flesh and may well lead us to the wrong conclusions.

Consider putting it on the shelf rather than throwing it out.

Hey Amadeus,
James could be put on the shelf and never taken back down again.
Know why?
JESUS said we are do DO and not only believe.

I keep asking for ONE VERSE that says that all we are to do is believe in Him and nothing else and we will be saved.
NONE FORTHCOMING --- because there is none.

However, there are plenty of teachings of Jesus that say we are TO DO.
So James is not really necessary in the grand scheme of things.

 

[bbyrd009]

It is obvious, to me, that there are many in the churches claimiing their works but have no idea as to what they have faith in.

right, condemn people following Christ's command to pick up your cross and follow now, because you want to have your cake and eat it, too. Ok.

 

[bbyrd009]

The word, by itself means nothing. I have stated, many times, that my faith is in what Jesus did on the cross that atoned(PAID) for all the sins of the world including mine.

until you do something with that, it is strictly a belief, and you cannot escape that your works, which you are going to perform anyway, are how you will be justified and what you will be judged by.

If you are not just crying 'LordLord' you have to at least argue what the difference is imo, for yourself i mean. And we also have no apparent example yet of the one who only does good deeds and demonstrates no belief in your religion being considered "condemned," even though we have plenty of examples of people of "faith" being condemned, doesn't that tell you anything?

 

[tabletalk]

***

***

I don't think so since He (JESUS) said He only came to the """"""LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL""""" in two places. Are you saying Jesus lied when He said it?????????????????????

Jesus did not go to the Gentiles. He sent Paul to them.

I agree with your last 2 sentences. But, my only conclusion, which I stated in post#248 is ..."so I think the teachings of Jesus are for the Gentiles also. "

 

[H. Richard]

Oh.
Well let me make it very clear:

JESUS DID NOT COME ONLY FOR THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL.

First of all if you've studied the Covenants you will know that each covenant continues on the previous one.
The Abrahamic Covenant stated that ALL NATIONS will know Jesus.
The Davidic Covenant stated that Jesus will be the KING of all nations.
(I'm not using proper language since I'd like everyone to understand what I'm saying and cannot do a lesson to accomplish this).

So, here we already can understand that Jesus and the N.T. , ALL of the N.T., is not only for Israel, but for ALL who would believe in our Lord.

Second, it is commonly accepted that Jesus had other sheep to which He must tend.
John 10:16

Jesus HIMSELF said that He has other sheep who will hear his voice and know His voice and that He must also bring them into the fold. Yes, this was referring to the gentiles, and WE are the gentiles. (since we are NOT Jewish, eveyone not jewish was a gentile).

This theme is also explained by Jesus in the parable of the Wedding Banquet.
Mathew 22:1-14

Those invited had work to do and did not come to the wedding, so those outside in the street were invited in.

How about Mathew 28:19??

I don't understand. Are you saying that Jesus came only for the Jew???


And regarding people getting sick and doing what Jesus said to do.
Please don't be demeaning...(or maybe you're truly seriously wrong..)

Jesus abolished the Ceremonial Law. (which would concern the sick)
Jesus abolished the Civil Law.
He DID NOT abolish the Moral Law.

***

I get it. When Jesus said He only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel he lied to us, Right??????

 

[H. Richard]

until you do something with that, it is strictly a belief, and you cannot escape that your works, which you are going to perform anyway, are how you will be justified and what you will be judged by.

If you are not just crying 'LordLord' you have to at least argue what the difference is imo, for yourself i mean. And we also have no apparent example yet of the one who only does good deeds and demonstrates no belief in your religion being considered "condemned," even though we have plenty of examples of people of "faith" being condemned, doesn't that tell you anything?

***

What it tells me is that you refused to state what you have placed your faith in.

 

[bbyrd009]

I get it. When Jesus said He only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel he lied to us, Right?

i get it. When God said that the Church is Israel now He lied to us, right

 

[bbyrd009]

***

What it tells me is that you refused to state what you have placed your faith in.

no, i already did that, you just didn't like it, so you forgot it i guess. My faith is in picking up my cross and following Christ, as best i am able, and trusting that if i confess my sins openly and seek to make them right, and if i forgive other people in that situation, rather than seeking an eye for an eye, i will be forgiven. If.
"Forgive and you will be forgiven" implies that IF you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.

See, grace is a free gift, but Adam and Eve's "nakedness" tells us that it does not matter to those who have unresolved guilt in their minds, as anyone who has forgiven someone of an unrepented sin and Stranger already understand.
"Who told you that you were naked?" was not adequate for A&E now, was it? See, God did not have a problem with A&E, A&E had a problem with God.

 

[H. Richard]

until you do something with that, it is strictly a belief, and you cannot escape that your works, which you are going to perform anyway, are how you will be justified and what you will be judged by.

If you are not just crying 'LordLord' you have to at least argue what the difference is imo, for yourself i mean. And we also have no apparent example yet of the one who only does good deeds and demonstrates no belief in your religion being considered "condemned," even though we have plenty of examples of people of "faith" being condemned, doesn't that tell you anything?

So the thief on the cross was not saved because he certainly didn't have time to do good works.

I have said, over and over and over that I have placed my faith, belief, trust, confidence in Jesus' shed blood on the cross. You say that is not enough. But you are not God. What I see in your writings and what you say is that you think the way to be saved is to joint a religion, do works in that religion and your good to go.

Tell me, in what way have you """picked up' your cross??? Is it doing the works of the law??? Is that what you have placed your faith in. I say that because you did not say what you have placed your faith in. All you want to do is tell me to do works.

Your works don't prove your faith if you don't have any.

 

[bbyrd009]

All you want to do is tell me to do works.

ah, and what works have i told you to do then? specifically? i haven't told you to do jack, ok, what i have said is that you are going to do works anyway, work is what your hands do, and you are going to be known by your works, and you will be judged for your works.

What, are you going to be action-free until the day you die? No, you are going to be doing something, right. Iow when you aren't talking, like politicians and philosophers do.

Understand that i am not telling you that you have to do a single, solitary work, ok. Not one thing. Try and quote one, and see

 

[H. Richard]

no, i already did that, you just didn't like it, so you forgot it i guess. My faith is in picking up my cross and following Christ, as best i am able, and trusting that if i confess my sins openly and seek to make them right, and if i forgive other people in that situation, rather than seeking an eye for an eye, i will be forgiven. If.
"Forgive and you will be forgiven" implies that IF you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.

See, grace is a free gift, but Adam and Eve's "nakedness" tells us that it does not matter to those who have unresolved guilt in their minds, as anyone who has forgiven someone of an unrepented sin and Stranger already understand.
"Who told you that you were naked?" was not adequate for A&E now, was it? See, God did not have a problem with A&E, A&E had a problem with God.

I thought so. You left out faith in God's work on the cross where the sins of all were paid for by His shed blood. You do not believe that since you say you have to ask for forgiveness of your sins. Why? Don't you really believe Jesus' shed blood paid for them. Yes, that is what I see. Your faith is in what you do and certainly not in what Jesus has already done.

 

[bbyrd009]

Your works don't prove your faith if you don't have any.

ya, no judging goin on there right lol

what kind of twistoid yack is this, even

 

[bbyrd009]

I thought so. You left out faith in God's work on the cross where the sins of all were paid for by His shed blood. You do not believe that since you say you have to ask for forgiveness of your sins. Why? Don't you really believe Jesus' shed blood paid for them. Yes, that is what I see. Your faith is in what you do and certainly not in what Jesus has already done.

Jesus has already plainly and in many places assured you that you must pick up your cross and follow, you must forgive to be forgiven, you must do and not just cry. I am not interested in what you can see, but what you cannot see, with all due respect, which becomes the more obvious the more snippets you ignore to force your perspective.

At least contemplate A&E here, you aren't required to snap off some knee jerk response right this second, ok.

 

[bbyrd009]

You left out faith in God's work on the cross where the sins of all were paid for by His shed blood.

i left that out because that is "belief," like in the tooth fairy, and not "faith," which requires action. We can go over Paul's discourse on this again, if you like, but i guess you prolly have tossed that part of Scripture too huh

 

[KBCid]

Because I quoted what Jesus said does not mean I believe in works.

I believe you have stated a mouthful right there.

Man shall live by every word of the mouth of God.

Tell me what sins are you allowed to keep commiting if your saved?

 

[Stranger]

How do you explain Mathew 5:17?
Why encourage new Christians who don't really understand being UNDER the Law that nothing is required of them?

We are not UNDER THE LAW,
but we MUST follow the Law.

Are you saying we don't have to??

I understand (Matt. 5:17) to mean that Jesus did not come against the Law of Moses as if it were wrong. It wasn't. He instead came in fulfillment of it.

Yes, because Jesus did fulfill it, the Mosaic Law, we are not under the Law.

When you say 'we must follow the Law', I am thinking, how is that any different than being under the Law? So, yes, my brief statement is we don't have to follow the Law. But I am afraid with that you will think I am saying some things that I am not

I don't have time right now, but will get back and give some explanation.

Stanger