The Other Sheep;

[amadeus]

The truth is knowable otherwise Jesus would not have suggested it. John 8:31-32

Of course you are right, but you are right because God has made it so. The carnal person alone cannot really know truth. Consider:

"Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?... " John 18:38

Pilate did NOT know the answer to his own question not realizing that the "truth" was standing right in front of him.

Anyone can know the truth, but it must be, I believe, approached along the pathway of faith.

 

[H. Richard]

Your logic seems good and likely the ones you mentioned specifically would be included in the other fold, but time is often a problem in communicating about the things of God.

"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:57-58

Time is for man, but not for God who is outside of time and NOT affected by it. This means that the "other sheep" could also include those which for man would seem to be in the future in spite of any grammatical tenses.

***
Then don't you think He would have said " and I """will""" have""???

 

[Job]

***
Then don't you think He would have said " and I """will""" have""???

Semantics.

 

[bbyrd009]

The truth is knowable otherwise Jesus would not have suggested it. John 8:31-32

i would not suggest that the truth is not knowable, in fact quite the opposite. The truth is knowable by the one there in that moment, better than any other opinion or law that purports to express the truth "better."

 

[amadeus]

***
Then don't you think He would have said " and I """will""" have""???

All I did was point out that your declaration or conclusion was not as ironclad or obvious as you seemed to think. I wasn't there to hear him with understanding physical ears. I have never read the original writings nor could I read them in the original languages. God has not spoken to me to tell me for certain who was or was not included in the "other sheep".

What you or I would have done in English cannot be used to determine what Jesus would have done in the language He did speak.

I am not saying your understanding or interpretation is wrong, but to say it is right without any doubt is also something I could not say. You may believe it, but you have not established it... not for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

hmm. They are until one of them is broken, yes; then they become ideals, not truths. For we can observe that despite "Don't do murder," people still murder

A truth does not depend on whether or not we understand it or keep it.
It's wrong to murder, even if we murder.
God's truths are absolute.

 

[Jun2u]

Jesus said:
So who are they? They are all the men and women before Abraham and the nation of Israel that God had because of their belief in Him. Men like Job, Jonah, Noah, the people of Nineveh that repented etc

I believe the context of John 10:16 is found in John 10:11 which speaks of a good shepherd giving His life for the sheep. Again He quotes the same in verse 15. In verse 16, Jesus introduces another set of sheep which He also must bring in. Bring to what? To salvation of course Matthew 1:21.

Both sets of sheep are the remnants chosen Roman 9:27; 11:5.

When Jesus began His ministry, John said, “Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world!” And John said this yet Jesus had not gone to the cross as yet. How can this be? Because John knew Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hence there shall be one flock and one Shepherd because of what Jesus had done on the cross.

The fold Jesus was speaking to was Ancient Israel and the other fold mentioned was the Gentiles, including the names given in the OP!

To God Be The Glory

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe the context of John 10:16 is found in John 10:11 which speaks of a good shepherd giving His life for the sheep. Again He quotes the same in verse 15. In verse 16, Jesus introduces another set of sheep which He also must bring in. Bring to what? To salvation of course Matthew 1:21.

Both sets of sheep are the remnants chosen Roman 9:27; 11:5.

When Jesus began His ministry, John said, “Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world!” And John said this yet Jesus had not gone to the cross as yet. How can this be? Because John knew Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hence there shall be one flock and one Shepherd because of what Jesus had done on the cross.

The fold Jesus was speaking to was Ancient Israel and the other fold mentioned was the Gentiles, including the names given in the OP!

To God Be The Glory

I agree that the other sheep were the gentiles.
Please answer this question:
You say the other fold also includes ancient Isreal.
Don't you believe ancient Israel was already a part of the fold?
Were they not the ones to whom God revealed Himself?
Did He not reveal Himself to Noah as He did to Abraham??
Were these not waiting in Abraham's Bossom for their redemption?

I think of the Wedding Banguet in Mathew 22. Those called did not come, so the ones on the street were called in. To me this represents the gentiles also.

As long as the gentiles are added into your mix, I don't have a big problem, however, to say that Jesus did NOT mean the gentiles is wrong. If I've understood, this is the statement of the OP, to which he refuses to answer. His problem...

 

[bbyrd009]

A truth does not depend on whether or not we understand it or keep it.
It's wrong to murder, even if we murder.
God's truths are absolute.

ok then, if that satisfies you, then BAM go with that, but my response there is that you have found an absolute truth that is not even true, at least for us, on earth, right now. It becomes a truth when you make it true, at least until you step on an ant or something, and then you have to wonder if you have not "put to death" unjustifiably, maybe an ant is not the best example there but whatever.

of course this does not apply to you any longer anyway, for grace demands a higher response, and you are now considered guilty if you even contemplate murder.

 

[Jun2u]

I agree that the other sheep were the gentiles.
Please answer this question:
You say the other fold also includes ancient Isreal.
Don't you believe ancient Israel was already a part of the fold?
Were they not the ones to whom God revealed Himself?
Did He not reveal Himself to Noah as He did to Abraham??
Were these not waiting in Abraham's Bossom for their redemption?

I think of the Wedding Banguet in Mathew 22. Those called did not come, so the ones on the street were called in. To me this represents the gentiles also.

As long as the gentiles are added into your mix, I don't have a big problem, however, to say that Jesus did NOT mean the gentiles is wrong. If I've understood, this is the statement of the OP, to which he refuses to answer. His problem...

Many times I will confuse people with my writing for lack of education I suppose.

No I did not say, “the other fold also includes ancient Israel.”

Would the last paragraph of my previous post make it much clearer if I had said, “The fold Jesus was speaking to was Ancient Israel along with the names given in the OP and the other fold mentioned was the Gentiles.”

If this made it clearer then this is what I meant to say. I suppose it’s a matter of how to structure the correct form of writing English which I know I lack. I apologize.

You are correct about the Wedding Banquet of Matthew 22. Those called (represented by Ancient Israel) did not come, so the ones on the street were called in (represented by those who are the remnant chosen both Jews and Gentiles).

To God Be The Glory

 

[GodsGrace]

Many times I will confuse people with my writing for lack of education I suppose.

No I did not say, “the other fold also includes ancient Israel.”

Would the last paragraph of my previous post make it much clearer if I had said, “The fold Jesus was speaking to was Ancient Israel along with the names given in the OP and the other fold mentioned was the Gentiles.”

If this made it clearer then this is what I meant to say. I suppose it’s a matter of how to structure the correct form of writing English which I know I lack. I apologize.

You are correct about the Wedding Banquet of Matthew 22. Those called (represented by Ancient Israel) did not come, so the ones on the street were called in (represented by those who are the remnant chosen both Jews and Gentiles).

To God Be The Glory

No problem J.
My main point, I guess, is that the other fold does consist of the gentiles.

This is also proven within the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants.
God's promise was to ALL THE WORLD, not just Israel.

Blessings

 

[bbyrd009]

My main point, I guess, is that the other fold does consist of the gentiles.

cool, so Muslims are finally in

 

[ScottA]

Jesus said:

John 10:16
16 And other sheep “””I have””” which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
NKJV

It is a common belief that the other sheep are those that are saved under grace; today’s gospel. But the scripture does not support this idea. The words “I HAVE” are present tense, not future tense; In other words he has them already.

So who are they? They are all the men and women before Abraham and the nation of Israel that God had because of their belief in Him. Men like Job, Jonah, Noah, the people of Nineveh that repented etc.

I know that the theology of the religious churches today do not want this to be true and this thread will become a battle ground. Go to it. I have had my say and the words of what Jesus said will not change. But many will twist it around to support their theology.

If you will not hear, then I will not carry on. But if you will listen to reason, then you should listen:

The two [different] folds spoken of by Christ, are first those born of the flesh, and then also those born (again) of the spirit of God: "the dead in Christ", and also "the living in Christ" (those "who are alive at His coming").

This is why Jesus sends "another." He came for those of the flesh, as the Last of those who died after the pattern of the first Adam. Then, to those whom are born again of the spirit of God, He sends "another" Helper. These are the two folds, wherein He is "the First and the Last".

As for your comment of "I HAVE" being "present tense." To Him who was "before the foundation of the world", all things are present tense. This we can see in Jesus' claim to have already overcome the world (using the same words, "I have"), even before He went to the cross.

 

[H. Richard]

If you will not hear, then I will not carry on. But if you will listen to reason, then you should listen:

The two [different] folds spoken of by Christ, are first those born of the flesh, and then also those born (again) of the spirit of God: "the dead in Christ", and also "the living in Christ" (those "who are alive at His coming").

This is why Jesus sends "another." He came for those of the flesh, as the Last of those who died after the pattern of the first Adam. Then, to those whom are born again of the spirit of God, He sends "another" Helper. These are the two folds, wherein He is "the First and the Last".

As for your comment of "I HAVE" being "present tense." To Him who was "before the foundation of the world", all things are present tense. This we can see in Jesus' claim to have already overcome the world (using the same words, "I have"), even before He went to the cross.

***

What I see is how easy it is for many to twist the scriptures to make them mean what they want them to mean. I took a simple scripture and pointed out that the words do not mean a future group of sheep and look where it has gone. Perhaps you should listen and see how much you can actually trust the ideas of others. If Jesus' simple words ""I have"' Do not mean He has them already then perhaps the Holy Spirit should have been more specific for many. But what does it matter; people will always twist the scriptures to get then to say what they want them to say.

I didn't twist anything, I used the words and their meaning to show a very clear message.

 

[GodsGrace]

cool, so Muslims are finally in

Oh yeah.
Do they accept Jesus as God?
No.
Then how could they be of the fold?

 

[GodsGrace]

***

What I see is how easy it is for many to twist the scriptures to make them mean what they want them to mean. I took a simple scripture and pointed out that the words do not mean a future group of sheep and look where it has gone. Perhaps you should listen and see how much you can actually trust the ideas of others. If Jesus' simple words ""I have"' Do not mean He has them already then perhaps the Holy Spirit should have been more specific for many. But what does it matter; people will always twist the scriptures to get then to say what they want them to say.

I didn't twist anything, I used the words and their meaning to show a very clear message.

Ummmm.
Maybe it went this way because you're wrong?
But it has nothing to do with your salvation, so believe what you will.

I just hope new Christians reading along don't get mixed up.

P.S. And what's so clear about this verse? You have to know some history and theology to know what it means. It's NOT as clear as some verses are...since Jesus does not explain to which fold He is referring.

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh yeah.
Do they accept Jesus as God?
No.
Then how could they be of the fold?

well, my reply there is that you would quiz them and listen to their verbal replies to discern an answer to that, and call that "truth," whereas truth is not arrived at in that way. See that the Good Samaritan would not accept Jesus as God either, and neither would the First Son (of the Vineyard Owner), as those parables make clear.

 

[GodsGrace]

well, my reply there is that you would quiz them and listen to their verbal replies to discern an answer to that, and call that "truth," whereas truth is not arrived at in that way. See that the Good Samaritan would not accept Jesus as God either, and neither would the First Son (of the Vineyard Owner), as those parables make clear.

Let's say you want to join some club or other.
You'd have to fill out an application.

Let's say you want to join the Kingdom of God here on earth.
You have to fill out an application
AND
follow all the rules.

See bb, no matter what you think or anybody here, the truth is the truth. If you read the NT very carefully, you'll find that not just anyone could join the Christian club -- you have to qualify and you have to follow the rules.

It's not up to me,
It's already been determined before the beginning of time how this would happen, what the rules would be, and the necessary requirements to join.

 

[twinc]

intelligence kept me from this truth, it did not lead me toward it. My intelligence suggests to me that i can in fact describe an absolute truth; Men die, and do not resurrect.

that is only so now -men did die in the past and reincarnated - twinc

 

[GodsGrace]

that is only so now -men did die in the past and reincarnated - twinc

What are you talking about?
Are you half Christian and half Buddhist??