The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

[Richard_oti]

ya, doubt anyone will be piling in with any "we" or "us" up in here, lol

Seriously... I have not recovered from your last one

<hearty chuckle>

 

[KBCid]

How many of us are fathers or mothers?
And how many have had both boys and girls to bring up?
Remember the time of the children's early years when boys were gross and girls were icky?

During this time in our kids lives we had no worries about any sexual problems occurring from their end of the perspective since the genetically controlled part that initiates puberty is still on hold. If all children stayed in this state then mankind would have died out.
Then there was the point where puberty is kicked into gear by the genetics of the flesh and boys begin to see girls differently and the girls see boys differently..... the desires of the flesh begin to make their presence known and the young spirits within the children being assaulted daily by this desire change them so that they begin to seek to satisfy the cravings of the body....
This is when the wife and I became ol' yeller at the door chasing off the boys when the girls came home from school and searched for our boys who were following girls from school to their homes...
These desires we all know well as we all lived through them and we know how powerful they could be to try and resist and at that age most of us did not have what we considered a good reason to want to resist them.
Instincts play a huge role in our lives from birth to death. Our bodies desire to have lots of food especially food with sugar and we don't like to work and when puberty kicks in we only think about and want the opposite sex and that without limit. The body desires power and money since it all translates to getting that which pleases the body.

AND then we learn from a still small voice about there being a moral code... a code of ethics and these things are in direct opposition to what our body demands and our spirits tend to look for ways to get both things at once to satisfy the loud fleshy voice of the body and the small still voice of Christ who calls us to become like himself and have dominion over the flesh and the lusts thereof.

Over time the desires of the body wear down the resistance of the spirit and those who choose not to deny the body seek to justify submitting to the flesh while professing to be following the still small voice and these people have twisted the word of God to the point where they believe in their hearts that they can let the body fulfill its desires while asserting with their mouth that their spirit follows God. These are the people who follow two masters...

Matt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We hear the voice of these asserting that we cannot stop sinning "its natural" and they justify this rationale by asserting that to try and stop sinning would mean that we are trying to perform acts of the law which Christ has done away with..... even though Christ has asserted that he is our example for how to overcome the lusts of the flesh yet this message is not heard by those justifying the sinful nature they submit too...

 

[christiang]

You really dont get it do you, as for this nonsense about a license to sin, you sinned before you supposedly became a christian, why would you need a license now. This is the problem you have.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

you simply dont believe in what Jesus did at the cross. And again "you" are demanding that men not do, the very same thing you do. sin like teh rest of us. Teh problem is you cant admit to it, because it make you look a hypocrit.

Luk_11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Besides you sound just like a seventh day adventist they preach teh exact same doctrine even teh bit about license to sin, you dont need a license its teh nature of your flesh

It is you who does not believe what Jesus Christ did on the cross, because you do not believe he put an end to sin and transgression on the cross, hence why you continue sinning. The scriptures teach otherwise, anyone who becomes born of God, which means receiving the holy spirit, cannot sin, because he has been freed from the sinful nature.

 

[Helen]

It is you who does not believe what Jesus Christ did on the cross, because you do not believe he put an end to sin and transgression on the cross, hence why you continue sinning. The scriptures teach otherwise, anyone who becomes born of God, which means receiving the holy spirit, cannot sin, because he has been freed from the sinful nature.

Not a trick question, a genuine one...I'm getting a bit lost here.
In what I may bold above in your post...whenever we say the sin is not 'imputed' to us..people scream...so what are you saying here.

I'm very aware of that scripture...but, if christians sin after they receive the Holy Spirit ( which they do) how is that not sin?...how is it impossible to sin?
...unless it is just not imputed to us because there is no law of sin and death now...but "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus"?
So, are you saying that when what Jesus did on the cross is not fully believed then any sin IS then imputed to us?
"He that is born of God cannot sin"...are you saying then that it is just not 'seen' as sin?
As you probably know by now, I am a great believer in grace/ "hidden in Christ".
But your post got my attention here.

Could you explain your quote above a bit slower and clearer?
Thank you.

 

[christiang]

Not a trick question, a genuine one...I'm getting a bit lost here.
In what I may bold above in your post...whenever we say the sin is not 'imputed' to us..people scream...so what are you saying here.

I'm very aware of that scripture...but, if christians sin after they receive the Holy Spirit ( which they do) how is that not sin?...how is it impossible to sin?
...unless it is just not imputed to us because there is no law of sin and death now...but "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus"?
So, are you saying that when what Jesus did on the cross is not fully believed then any sin IS then imputed to us?
"He that is born of God cannot sin"...are you saying then that it is just not 'seen' as sin?
As you probably know by now, I am a great believer in grace/ "hidden in Christ".
But your post got my attention here.

Could you explain your quote above a bit slower and clearer?
Thank you.

If you commit adultery, you are sinning. There's never a case where you commit adultery, and it is not sin. You are trying to make distinction between imputation of sin or not, and there is no such a thing, adultery is adultery, whether you believe in Jesus, or you do not. What does exist, however, is forgiveness of sin. When is forgiveness granted? When you believe in Christ AND when you have stopped committing the sin. If it takes 7x7 times for you to finally reach the point of never committing that sin again, then sure, that person will be forgiven for all those previous sins before he stopped committing sin once and for all. But if you never reach a point in this body where you stop committing sin, but continue sinning, then you fall under,

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27 [KJV])

The reason behind this is because freedom from sin has already come, through the blood of Jesus Christ, which the blood of animals were never able to accomplish. But you can only achieve the freedom from sin by the baptism of the holy spirit that comes through the blood of the new covenant. And you can only achieve the baptism of the holy spirit by stopping all sin and becoming blameless. Not many people reach blamelessness because of false teaching. Becoming freed from sin means this: when the holy spirit literally enters your body at the "baptism of the holy spirit", he instantly alters your mind, and releases you from what caused you to sin in the first place, the "sinful nature". So lets say for example, there's a homosexual man that came to the belief of Jesus Christ, and he stopped committing acts of homosexuality once and for all, and subsequently received the holy spirit, he will never again have a homosexual desire, because he has been released from the sinful nature as a result of the work of the holy spirit when he entered inside his body. This is what is meant with the "circumcision of the heart by the Spirit". This is only possible by the baptism of the holy spirit. This is why many in your churches backslide into sin over and over again, because they have not been released from their sinful natures. No one who is sinning has actually received the holy spirit, no matter how many times they claim they do. Such was the case with many of the false prophets in the time of the Israelites, many claimed to have the Spirit of the LORD, but only few prophets actually did. They deceive themselves.

 

[Richard_oti]

.

Wow ByGrace, I said get on your feet dear Sister. But I must say, I am impressed. Welcome back!

I must inquire as to your "Physician", for your recovery is amazing. What is His name and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?

 

[Helen]

@christiang Thank you for your detailed reply.
Obviously we don't see eye to eye totally, ...but at least I can now see why you were saying what you were saying, plus I now know and understand better where you are coming from. :)

That great helped, thanks.

 

[Helen]

Wow ByGrace, I said get on your feet dear Sister. But I must say, I am impressed. Welcome back!

I must inquire as to your "Physician", for your recovery is amazing. What is His name and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?

Haha!! That is a good one. Very clever...How about Proverbs 30:4 but you will have to ask Q****** for His name ?

It will all be a different story tomorrow. Although I am too old really... I do still work in my son in laws office doing some filing for him. Fridays are my days for that...so, I wont be around in the morning..and when I get home I will be shattered ..so wont be so perky then :)

Today is cold outside and we may be getting more snow...so it was a good day to 'go nowhere and do nothing'..except play on here.

 

[christiang]

@christiang Thank you for your detailed reply.
Obviously we don't see eye to eye totally, ...but at least I can now see why you were saying what you were saying, plus I now know and understand better where you are coming from. :)

That great helped, thanks.

Please read this study, Repentance and Sin No More, Perfection and Born of the Spirit | Wisdom of God . Scriptures are there as to why I believe this way.

 

[Richard_oti]

Haha!! That is a good one. Very clever...How about Proverbs 30:4 but you will have to ask Q****** for His name ?

<hearty chuckle> I knew you'd recognize it.

It will all be a different story tomorrow. Although I am too old really... I do still work in my son in laws office doing some filing for him. Fridays are my days for that...so, I wont be around in the morning..and when I get home I will be shattered ..so wont be so perky then :)

Today is cold outside and we may be getting more snow...so it was a good day to 'go nowhere and do nothing'..except play on here.

Glad I got to enjoy the day with you. It was really good reading you today!

 

[mjrhealth]

It is you who does not believe what Jesus Christ did on the cross, because you do not believe he put an end to sin and transgression on the cross, hence why you continue sinning. The scriptures teach otherwise, anyone who becomes born of God, which means receiving the holy spirit, cannot sin, because he has been freed from the sinful nature.

That is what you say, and yet it is you who comes to us under condemnation. I do full well know what Jesus did for me / us on the cross, as it says,

Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

and that is where we stand, those who are in Him. No longer condemned but walking in the newness of life.

did i miss this bit

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Teh law is of teh flesh you can have it,

 

[tabletalk]

If you commit adultery, you are sinning. There's never a case where you commit adultery, and it is not sin. You are trying to make distinction between imputation of sin or not, and there is no such a thing, adultery is adultery, whether you believe in Jesus, or you do not. What does exist, however, is forgiveness of sin. When is forgiveness granted? When you believe in Christ AND when you have stopped committing the sin. If it takes 7x7 times for you to finally reach the point of never committing that sin again, then sure, that person will be forgiven for all those previous sins before he stopped committing sin once and for all. But if you never reach a point in this body where you stop committing sin, but continue sinning, then you fall under,

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27 [KJV])

The reason behind this is because freedom from sin has already come, through the blood of Jesus Christ, which the blood of animals were never able to accomplish. But you can only achieve the freedom from sin by the baptism of the holy spirit that comes through the blood of the new covenant. And you can only achieve the baptism of the holy spirit by stopping all sin and becoming blameless. Not many people reach blamelessness because of false teaching. Becoming freed from sin means this: when the holy spirit literally enters your body at the "baptism of the holy spirit", he instantly alters your mind, and releases you from what caused you to sin in the first place, the "sinful nature". So lets say for example, there's a homosexual man that came to the belief of Jesus Christ, and he stopped committing acts of homosexuality once and for all, and subsequently received the holy spirit, he will never again have a homosexual desire, because he has been released from the sinful nature as a result of the work of the holy spirit when he entered inside his body. This is what is meant with the "circumcision of the heart by the Spirit". This is only possible by the baptism of the holy spirit. This is why many in your churches backslide into sin over and over again, because they have not been released from their sinful natures. No one who is sinning has actually received the holy spirit, no matter how many times they claim they do. Such was the case with many of the false prophets in the time of the Israelites, many claimed to have the Spirit of the LORD, but only few prophets actually did. They deceive themselves.

This is the Heresy you are proclaimingfrom R.C.Sproul, The Heresy of Perfectionism, May 10,2013)

"To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers."

 

[christiang]

This is the Heresy you are proclaimingfrom R.C.Sproul, The Heresy of Perfectionism, May 10,2013)

"To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers."

No one is "sinless", because all have sinned. Yet just because all have sinned, in the past, it does not mean that it is not possible to become perfected, and never sin again, from the present and into the future. Perfection is possible by the baptism of the holy spirit. This is scriptural. It is your teaching that is heresy, because you are essentially permitting sin, in the false teaching that it is not possible to stop sinning.

 

[bbyrd009]

How many of us are fathers or mothers?
And how many have had both boys and girls to bring up?
Remember the time of the children's early years when boys were gross and girls were icky?

During this time in our kids lives we had no worries about any sexual problems occurring from their end of the perspective since the genetically controlled part that initiates puberty is still on hold. If all children stayed in this state then mankind would have died out.
Then there was the point where puberty is kicked into gear by the genetics of the flesh and boys begin to see girls differently and the girls see boys differently..... the desires of the flesh begin to make their presence known and the young spirits within the children being assaulted daily by this desire change them so that they begin to seek to satisfy the cravings of the body....
This is when the wife and I became ol' yeller at the door chasing off the boys when the girls came home from school and searched for our boys who were following girls from school to their homes...
These desires we all know well as we all lived through them and we know how powerful they could be to try and resist and at that age most of us did not have what we considered a good reason to want to resist them.
Instincts play a huge role in our lives from birth to death. Our bodies desire to have lots of food especially food with sugar and we don't like to work and when puberty kicks in we only think about and want the opposite sex and that without limit. The body desires power and money since it all translates to getting that which pleases the body.

AND then we learn from a still small voice about there being a moral code... a code of ethics and these things are in direct opposition to what our body demands and our spirits tend to look for ways to get both things at once to satisfy the loud fleshy voice of the body and the small still voice of Christ who calls us to become like himself and have dominion over the flesh and the lusts thereof.

Over time the desires of the body wear down the resistance of the spirit and those who choose not to deny the body seek to justify submitting to the flesh while professing to be following the still small voice and these people have twisted the word of God to the point where they believe in their hearts that they can let the body fulfill its desires while asserting with their mouth that their spirit follows God. These are the people who follow two masters...

Matt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We hear the voice of these asserting that we cannot stop sinning "its natural" and they justify this rationale by asserting that to try and stop sinning would mean that we are trying to perform acts of the law which Christ has done away with..... even though Christ has asserted that he is our example for how to overcome the lusts of the flesh yet this message is not heard by those justifying the sinful nature they submit too...

ya, no likes for this post, huh?

I guess we're just going to be overwhelmed by this Hyper-Grace yack now, and we'll get to witness those same people lecture to us about a "falling away" to boot.

 

[bbyrd009]

It is you who does not believe what Jesus Christ did on the cross, because you do not believe he put an end to sin and transgression on the cross, hence why you continue sinning. The scriptures teach otherwise, anyone who becomes born of God, which means receiving the holy spirit, cannot sin, because he has been freed from the sinful nature.

Aw, bro, i feel for you. I don't even know what to say to this delusion. I mean, you are forgiven, but that is not going to help much when you learn the truth. Keep an open mind there, is all i can suggest, because i'm pretty sure that you did not get a single spiritual concept up there correctly, ok, not that i am your judge or anything. Imo that is how Hitler justified being a Christian, wadr.

 

[bbyrd009]

No one is "sinless", because all have sinned. Yet just because all have sinned, in the past, it does not mean that it is not possible to become perfected, and never sin again, from the present and into the future. Perfection is possible by the baptism of the holy spirit. This is scriptural. It is your teaching that is heresy, because you are essentially permitting sin, in the false teaching that it is not possible to stop sinning.

yet nowhere in there do i see any "false teaching that it is not possible to stop sinning," because that is not what has been said; that is just the conclusion you jumped to, that allows you to continue seeing yourself as perfect, and everyone else as needing to come to your understanding. @KBCid , you might comment here, as i have CogDissed ol' cg out already, pretty sure i'm on ignore for him. Or you might at least 'splain how you can both post #462, and like his post, ty.

 

[KBCid]

ya, no likes for this post, huh?
I guess we're just going to be overwhelmed by this Hyper-Grace yack now, and we'll get to witness those same people lecture to us about a "falling away" to boot.

Other than yours no. Thx for taking the time

 

[bbyrd009]

Other than yours no. Thx for taking the time

ya, we'll see if you're still thanking me here in 5 minutes, i guess :)

 

[KBCid]

yet nowhere in there do i see any "false teaching that it is not possible to stop sinning," because that is not what has been said; that is just the conclusion you jumped to, that allows you to continue seeing yourself as perfect, and everyone else as needing to come to your understanding. @KBCid , you might comment here, as i have CogDissed ol' cg out already, pretty sure i'm on ignore for him. Or you might at least 'splain how you can both post #462, and like his post, ty.

Christiang said : "No one is "sinless", because all have sinned. Yet just because all have sinned, in the past, it does not mean that it is not possible to become perfected, and never sin again, from the present and into the future. Perfection is possible by the baptism of the holy spirit. This is scriptural. It is your teaching that is heresy, because you are essentially permitting sin, in the false teaching that it is not possible to stop sinning."

bbyrd I liked that post because in its essence there is truth even though the path used to derive it appears to be off.
It is a fact that all have sinned... no big revelation there
it is also a fact that it is possible to attain perfection with the help of God's spirit
however the error in his post is the belief that the HS makes one perfect at baptism. This is error as perfection can only be attained as the HS guides the life of the believer AND the believer submits to the HS direction. As has been shown in scripture it is possible for one to attain a holy state and yet backslide to their previous sinful way of existence and then that state is worse than if they had never attained sinlessness since there is no more forgiveness at that point.
What happens at the baptism IF one is worthy is that all previous sins are forgiven and the believer has a clean slate to go forward on but the story doesn't end there. Moving forward you have to learn and develop the relationship of submission to God's spirit as it directs you to attain and remain sinless.

 

[bbyrd009]

Moving forward you have to learn and develop the relationship of submission to God's spirit as it directs you to attain and remain sinless.

ah well seems to me cg et al have found some shortcut? Why do...ah, there is no doing even there; why believe all that when i can believe "it is finished" and Jesus already did everything necessary for me to...what, i guess 'go to heaven when i die' or some other ball of crap that someone thinks they have found in Scripture?

christiang is perfect/sinless in his own eyes right now, dunno if you noticed or not.