The Identity of the Two Witnesses of Revelation

[bbyrd009]

I hope there will be some here part of this Gentile Bride

"Gentile Bride?"

 

[EndTimeWine]

"places" and "wheres" suggest kingdoms that i might literally witness coming with my own eyes, yes? Imo those are decent enough beliefs to hold for now, but you might keep an open mind, just based upon past experience if nothing else. Because it is also entirely possible that the Revelation of Christ happens in Israel, the Church, which is also all those producing the fruits of the kingdom throughout time, rather than making so much Scripture applicable to only one special generation.

One thing i note with the more open view is that it has allowed related contemplations about God to reveal truth, where at the same time i do not have to feel obligated to deny your perspective outright, because i do not know.

Think so, huh? If it's Rome, then it isn't much of a mystery i guess lol. Admit it, there's a little emperor in you too, right

"Gentile Bride?"

Jews are part of the bride too that was reference to the gentile portion. I do speak of the 144,000 of every tribe of Israel as well. If there are Jewish believers here, obviously I have included them in my reply. The emperor in me is My KING and SAVIOR Yeshua. You do not have to agree with me. I like to study scripture and prophecy. I have devoted many years to my Lord. Countless hours in reflection and prayer. I am not looking to be confrontational. I am just sharing my thoughts out loud. I am not prophesying, I am just giving order of events. I have not given dates. The prophecies are from John who received them from Christ., obviously. I think all bible prophecy and meaning of all scripture is meaningful discussion. And the people who are having the discussions, well, at least they are. That is more than most of the world are doing. I am assuming we all have this discussion because we love Yeshua, no? I guess we will wait and see if my conclusions are right concerning order of events. God Bless and Peace!

 

[bbyrd009]

If there are Jewish believers here, obviously I have included them in my reply.

this is usually where i make the crack that there are none, if "there are no Jew or Gentile in the kingdom," but it occurs to me now to wonder why you (we) don't take that passage literally?

 

[EndTimeWine]

Not that I recall. And you know one of the main reasons why 101G believes that Jesus and John the Baptist are the two witnesses is because they were the only two that were filled with the holy ghost up to that point, so he claims.......yet, Luke clearly says that John the Baptist shall come with the spirit and power of the prophet Elijah. It doesn't even make a lick of sense. His argument is seriously lacking basic zeroes and ones.

"Not that I recall" Matthew 17:10 And the disciples asked Him, " Then why do the scribes say that FIRST Elijah must come?" He replied, " Elijah does come, and he is to restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah HAS ALREADY COME, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW HIM, but DID to him whatever they pleased. Who did Yeshua say they did to him whatever they pleased, was this Elijah ? Matthew 17:12 continues: So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them of John the Baptist. Speaking what of John? The disciples new he was a prophet, they new he died, they followed him before they were introduced to Christ by John. So, what did they understand about John, that was revealed after his death? That he was Elijah!

 

[bbyrd009]

I am not prophesying, I am just giving order of events.

12x12k is a symbolic representation though, whereas a literal fulfillment is envisioned, yes? Which i don't deny is possible, don't get me wrong, just that other interpretations are possible too, and holding the literal one as being the only possible outcome can keep one from accepting that a more spiritual interp might actually manifest. See how our point of view is being manipulated, as is reflected when we arbitrarily choose which vv to interpret literally, iow.

 

[EndTimeWine]

12x12k is a symbolic representation though, whereas a literal fulfillment is envisioned, yes? Which i don't deny is possible, don't get me wrong, just that other interpretations are possible too, and holding the literal one as being the only possible outcome can keep one from accepting that a more spiritual interp might actually manifest. See how our point of view is being manipulated, as is reflected when we arbitrarily choose which vv to interpret literally, iow.

12x12k is symbolic of what? And if it is ONLY symbolism then put it on a necklace. If it is a spiritual symbolism them it concerns the sealing of their souls by God through Yeshua the Messiah who already came, and His seal of Wisdom.

 

[bbyrd009]

And the people who are having the discussions, well, at least they are. That is more than most of the world are doing. I am assuming we all have this discussion because we love Yeshua, no? I guess we will wait and see if my conclusions are right concerning order of events.

iow "tomorrow" right, we are looking for conclusions to manifest tomorrow, with that? Some date in the future, iow.

Yes, we say that we seek this out of love of Christ, but i suspect that something else is going on, when i note how this takes us away from Right Now. Don't get me wrong, i spent years doing that myself, and imo these are a great way to stay in the Book, too.

 

[bbyrd009]

12x12k is symbolic of what?

i would hesitate to define it too succinctly, lest i veil myself from seeing any further truth in it later, but "12" obviously has spiritual meaning of its own, right. And "12 x 12" has other connotations; witness, etc.

And if it is ONLY symbolism then put it on a necklace.

ya, i don't know that it is, but more to the point imo is we take that literally, but we don't take "there are no Jew or Gentile in the kingdom" literally, see.

 

[EndTimeWine]

iow "tomorrow" right, we are looking for conclusions to manifest tomorrow, with that? Some date in the future, iow.

Yes, we say that we seek this out of love of Christ, but i suspect that something else is going on, when i note how this takes us away from Right Now. Don't get me wrong, i spent years doing that myself, and imo these are a great way to stay in the Book, too.

All prophecy is about a later date, not specific dates. So, yes about a tomorrow that only God will determine if we are here. But no doubt prophecy is a foretelling of future events the bible is all about that.

 

[bbyrd009]

All prophecy is about a later date, not specific dates. So, yes about a tomorrow that only God will determine if we are here. But no doubt prophecy is a foretelling of future events the bible is all about that.

so you say, but that is strictly a perspective that appeals to you--your desire to know what might happen tomorrow--and i suggest that it is at least possible that this perspective is invasive, a part of human nature, and therefore was likely anticipated during the writing of Scripture, a Book about our spiritual progression, yes? Are we not also cautioned to not be worried about tomorrow, and to give no thought to tomorrow? I tell you that the Revelation of Christ was as valid for a first century believer (AD or BC, actually) as it is for us, and rigidly applying prophecy to something that might possibly be seen in the future is not the only way to read the Bible; even if it is the most popular perspective of those who read...with their eyes.

But when it is seen how arbitrarily we interpret literally--which i could point out several, many other ways--to suit our perspectives, overlooking the logical conundrums that must arise, being blind to them in a sense becomes a clue.

For instance, i agree with Scripture completely--they will see Him come down the same way they saw Him go up; and the same with you, imo--you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up. But we don't read that passage that way, do we? As in never. See, we read a spiritual interp into a passage when it suits us, not according to any truth we have witnessed.

 

[EndTimeWine]

so you say, but that is strictly a perspective that appeals to you--your desire to know what might happen tomorrow--and i suggest that it is at least possible that this perspective is invasive, a part of human nature, and therefore was likely anticipated during the writing of Scripture, a Book about our spiritual progression, yes? Are we not also cautioned to not be worried about tomorrow, and to give no thought to tomorrow? I tell you that the Revelation of Christ was as valid for a first century believer (AD or BC, actually) as it is for us, and rigidly applying prophecy to something that might possibly be seen in the future is not the only way to read the Bible; even if it is the most popular perspective of those who read...with their eyes.

But when it is seen how arbitrarily we interpret literally--which i could point out several, many other ways--to suit our perspectives, overlooking the logical conundrums that must arise, being blind to them in a sense becomes a clue.

For instance, I agree with Scripture completely--they will see Him come down the same way they saw Him go up; and the same with you, imo--you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up. But we don't read that passage that way, do we? As in never. See, we read a spiritual interp into a passage when it suits us, not according to any truth we have witnessed.

I am not worry about tomorrow I am right with him today. And yes sufficient for the day is its own trouble. We are not to worry as what we need food, clothing, housing. To be aware of God's prophecy concerning tomorrow is what he desires, so that we proceed with caution in our behavior today. Our obedience today can push off bad prophecy of retribution. Scripture, in all its design is for us to ponder. Prophecy, mysteries, parables , the prophets our patriarchs and matriarchs and their experiences are for us to reflect upon. This is given to man by the Almighty. Therefore, is our designed purpose to pursue. God is Good and His Wisdom , for me a highly prized possession. You can not ignore prophecy it is part of the Spirit of God for edification. Not sure what your argument is against, if is against me putting prophecy as a topic or me believing the Holy Spirit is showing me what is in store shortly, that should not concern you, concerning my salvation or yours. In Christ we are free. If you do not believe in His signs which tell the believers the season we are in, then you must not believe in Christ's words that we will recognize the signs. God Bless!

 

[bbyrd009]

I am not worry about tomorrow

yes, that is always the reply. But i did not say that you were worried necessarily, see. Even "giving thought" to tomorrow should be contemplated imo.

13Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will travel to such and such a city and spend a year there and do business and make a profit."

I am right with him today.

then why does rapture appeal to you?

 

[EndTimeWine]

yes, that is always the reply. But i did not say that you were worried necessarily, see. Even "giving thought" to tomorrow should be contemplated imo

imo?

 

[bbyrd009]

To be aware of God's prophecy concerning tomorrow is what he desires, so that we proceed with caution in our behavior today.

so you say, but note how only now is prophecy brought into the arena of personal redemption, whereas previously it was a mass human event? So iow we get to toggle perspective here to suit our interpretations, to suit our selves, basically. At least be open to the other perspectives, iow.

 

[bbyrd009]

Scripture, in all its design is for us to ponder. Prophecy, mysteries, parables , the prophets our patriarchs and matriarchs and their experiences are for us to reflect upon.

"the Church" is generally perceived to be the entire body of believers, when in reality the only juxtaposition vis a vis Scripture that one should be making is with themselves, and the temple that they are supposedly building, regardless of any perceived invitation to do otherwise in Scripture, which i grant is pervasive, even endemic. Scripture gives us enough rope to hang ourselves, in a sense, iow.

If the perspective when reading Scripture is limited to self, then these ostensibly self-serving perspective changes can be eliminated, see; regardless of whatever might happen tomorrow. One cannot be a hypocrite if they embrace every verse as it applies to themselves, the Church. And by extension iow, stop applying Scripture arbitrarily as suits one's ego, which is demonstrated by the arbitrary application of perspective change whenever it suits an individual to shift the focus away from themselves, or also whenever we arbitrarily choose to interpret a passage literally or figuratively, to suit our agendas.

By which i don't mean you are doing this right now or anything, just that i do it all the time lol

 

[bbyrd009]

You can not ignore prophecy it is part of the Spirit of God for edification.

imo one also should not ignore how prophets are characterized in Scripture, and recognize what "prophets gone a'whoring" means
i would never advise ignoring prophecy, until it gets applied to tomorrow rather than today. Simply because if one is looking for a literal person to enter the Holy of Holies and proclaim themselves God, after some temple is literally rebuilt (another prophecy, right), they will likely not even consider how they usually do this exact same spiritual thing, in their own temples, the ones they are supposed to be building today.

 

[EndTimeWine]

so you say, but note how only now is prophecy brought into the arena of personal redemption, whereas previously it was a mass human event? So iow we get to toggle perspective here to suit our interpretations, to suit our selves, basically. At least be open to the other perspectives, iow.

Take it for what it is worth to you. I am not arguing for you to accept anything I post. You are entitled to accept or reject. I put it out there. There is no wrong in doing that. Obviously I am for prophecy and delving into meaning and purposeful time for it. I put it out there, take it or leave it. If we are here we will see if the order of events is right. We know all that which God speaks comes back to Him fruitful, not one word is in vain. We can be sure these prophecies will happen. I do not know where you may have been in recent years but commonsense would dictate we are undoubtedly in critical times. I will end there with any further dialogue as to what I believe in order of events. A Child can say why, why continuously to anything. Give some answers. If it is your perspective you do not agree then that is okay. End of discussion then. Because I have heard your perspective , and I disagree. God Bless!

 

[bbyrd009]

Not sure what your argument is against, if is against me putting prophecy as a topic or me believing the Holy Spirit is showing me what is in store shortly

ah, i don't mean to be arguing against any interpretation necessarily, that is kind of the point i hoped to make. An interp that sees a prophecy as something that must literally occur in some tomorrow necessarily excludes any spiritual manifestation today. See, thousands or even millions of "Believers" currently insist that some literal temple must be rebuilt in order for some prophecy to come true, and yet that is not true, when the prophecy is read from a different perspective.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you do not believe in His signs which tell the believers the season we are in

do we all experience these seasons together, though? Or is it also at least worth considering that we each come in our own time? So see that it is not so much a matter of if i believe or do not believe in signs, so much as how i approach these perspective-wise, mentally iow. Am i working on dying to self, or am i a suicide looking for a companion? At least in a sense.

then you must not believe in Christ's words that we will recognize the signs.

hopefully it can be seen that if i tell you to "wait here for the present," you might believe me all you like, but that does not mean that a present is going to appear, no matter how long you wait!

 

[bbyrd009]

imo?

"in my opinion," any slang/web dictionary can hip you up to these if you just highlight/search, if that helps. In Chrome it is even included in a right click, so a definition is one click away rather than two.