The Identity of the Two Witnesses of Revelation

[bbyrd009]

You are entitled to accept or reject.

sure, and there is also a third choice, too, that is much less contemplated, as logic does not really comport with it. And that is the one i am choosing.

We can be sure these prophecies will happen.

oh, i agree; any argument perceived from my end would be more along the lines of "but can you be sure they have not happened already, or even happened before and will likely happen again," etc

 

[bbyrd009]

I do not know where you may have been in recent years

ha well let's just say that a lot of camping was in evidence lol, along with some caves and whatnot

but commonsense would dictate we are undoubtedly in critical times.

oh, horse puckey. Common sense would dictate that if you described you life today to someone even from 100 years ago, they would likely burn you for a witch lol, you live inside such a miracle. Crime is vastly down, by any measure you care to use.

Newscasters, now they would dictate that, no doubt; if only i let them, which i do not. I notice that life immediately got a lot better as soon as i turned off the news.

 

[bbyrd009]

Give some answers. If it is your perspective you do not agree then that is okay. End of discussion then. Because I have heard your perspective , and I disagree.

you disagree that it is possible to adopt a self-serving perspective at a passage without realizing it? Hmm. But i mostly was looking for some acknowledgement that we are free to disagree, which you have done. That is really all i was going for.

Give some answers.

in order to do that, i would have to first infer or declare that i know something, right. Otherwise aren't those basically just opinions? Which don't get me wrong, that is what i am here doing too, nothing wrong with your opinions ok

 

[Dcopymope]

"Not that I recall" Matthew 17:10 And the disciples asked Him, " Then why do the scribes say that FIRST Elijah must come?" He replied, " Elijah does come, and he is to restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah HAS ALREADY COME, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW HIM, but DID to him whatever they pleased. Who did Yeshua say they did to him whatever they pleased, was this Elijah ? Matthew 17:12 continues: So also the Son of man will suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them of John the Baptist. Speaking what of John? The disciples new he was a prophet, they new he died, they followed him before they were introduced to Christ by John. So, what did they understand about John, that was revealed after his death? That he was Elijah!

In order for your interpretation to even to begin to make sense, I would have to add reincarnation into the picture, because you are telling me that John the Baptist IS the prophet Elijah, and not simply one compared to him in spirit and power. Is reincarnation biblical? Do you realize that reincarnation is exactly what you are claiming occurred? After all, one would think that Peter, James and John would have recognized John the Baptist in the transfiguration if that was truly John the Baptist.....would they not?

 

[EndTimeWine]

In order for your interpretation to even to begin to make sense, I would have to add reincarnation into the picture, because you are telling me that John the Baptist IS the prophet Elijah, and not simply one compared to him in spirit and power. Is reincarnation biblical? Do you realize that reincarnation is exactly what you are claiming occurred? After all, one would think that Peter, James and John would have recognized John the Baptist in the transfiguration if that was truly John the Baptist.....would they not?

I am not claiming it, Christ said it, I am reiterating it. Read it for yourself. Just because it does not jive with you does not mean what we are reading from Christ's own words is not true. And as for recognizing John at the transfiguration they would be seeing Elijah in his glorified state. It is not until after the transfiguration that Christ tells them Elijah is John the Baptist. And as for recognizing: The apostles didn't recognize Christ after the resurrection even though they saw Him in His glorified state at the transfiguration He would have looked the same at both. As for reincarnation and the definition you cling to, I do not. I believe this has only been purposed for Enoch, Elijah and St. John the Beloved of Christ. That does not constitute belief in reincarnation as pertaining to all people. Just these men of God. Scripture does not lie. I love how people like you like to say "I" or whoever tells you exactly what scripture says- you say that person said it, when it is the Lord that said it. I am not scared of new knowledge. Read the scripture and verses I placed about even St.John recipient of the Revelation of God, it is clear he must prophesy again. And as for reincarnation being biblical, if you constitute OT prophets who did not die and are sent back as NT prophets who do the same thing they did before as reincarnation go right ahead. I constitute it as God's providence. I consider it the same with the beloved Apostle John. God Bless!

 

[101G]

I am not claiming it, Christ said it, I am reiterating it. Read it for yourself. Just because it does not jive with you does not mean what we are reading from Christ's own words is not true. And as for recognizing John at the transfiguration they would be seeing Elijah in his glorified state. It is not until after the transfiguration that Christ tells them Elijah is John the Baptist. And as for recognizing: The apostles didn't recognize Christ after the resurrection even though they saw Him in His glorified state at the transfiguration He would have looked the same at both. As for reincarnation and the definition you cling to, I do not. I believe this has only been purposed for Enoch, Elijah and St. John the Beloved of Christ. That does not constitute belief in reincarnation as pertaining to all people. Just these men of God. Scripture does not lie. I love how people like you like to say "I" or whoever tells you exactly what scripture says- you say that person said it, when it is the Lord that said it. I am not scared of new knowledge. Read the scripture and verses I placed about even St.John recipient of the Revelation of God, it is clear he must prophesy again. And as for reincarnation being biblical, if you constitute OT prophets who did not die and are sent back as NT prophets who do the same thing they did before as reincarnation go right ahead. I constitute it as God's providence. I consider it the same with the beloved Apostle John. God Bless!

Dcopymope reprove you correctly. John the Baptist came in the Power and spirit of Elijah, not Elijah the man himself. that was put down firmly. I must use that one...

 

[Dcopymope]

I am not claiming it, Christ said it, I am reiterating it. Read it for yourself. Just because it does not jive with you does not mean what we are reading from Christ's own words is not true. And as for recognizing John at the transfiguration they would be seeing Elijah in his glorified state. It is not until after the transfiguration that Christ tells them Elijah is John the Baptist. And as for recognizing: The apostles didn't recognize Christ after the resurrection even though they saw Him in His glorified state at the transfiguration He would have looked the same at both. As for reincarnation and the definition you cling to, I do not. I believe this has only been purposed for Enoch, Elijah and St. John the Beloved of Christ. That does not constitute belief in reincarnation as pertaining to all people. Just these men of God. Scripture does not lie. I love how people like you like to say "I" or whoever tells you exactly what scripture says- you say that person said it, when it is the Lord that said it. I am not scared of new knowledge. Read the scripture and verses I placed about even St.John recipient of the Revelation of God, it is clear he must prophesy again. And as for reincarnation being biblical, if you constitute OT prophets who did not die and are sent back as NT prophets who do the same thing they did before as reincarnation go right ahead. I constitute it as God's providence. I consider it the same with the beloved Apostle John. God Bless!

So you do believe the Bible teaches reincarnation, only for Elijah, Enoch, John the Baptist and Jesus. Well, even with them, it is NOT in any way reincarnation. Reincarnation is the transformation of your entire being from one body to another as a completely different being. It could be in the form of an animal or another human. Whereas the Bible teaches regeneration, which is the return of the same mind body and spirit, either as it was before, or glorified and made new like the body of Jesus. You are claiming the Bible teaches the former, which is heresy, that you call "God's providence". John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah does not make him Elijah. When the real Elijah makes a return, it is stated to be before the day of the lord, his second coming, not before the birth of Jesus Christ, meaning his return will be during the end times.

(Malachi 4:5-6) "¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: {6} And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."[/quote[

 

[EndTimeWine]

Dcopymope reprove you correctly. John the Baptist came in the Power and spirit of Elijah, not Elijah the man himself. that was put down firmly. I must use that one...

Dcopymope reproved no one. Scripture does not lie. Put whatever you want down firmly the Lord put the Word down firmly- it is not my words you are rejecting but His. You haven't proven me wrong because you can not fight against Christ's words and win. Say whatever you want- truth is truth. John was Elijah the man, Elijah the spirit-can not have one without the other we are not split beings. Get over yourself. Can"t have the Spirit of one and the flesh of another if anything sounds crazy that does. You can believe what you want, I'll take Christ as His word. God Bless!

 

[Dcopymope]

Dcopymope reproved no one. Scripture does not lie. Put whatever you want down firmly the Lord put the Word down firmly- it is not my words you are rejecting but His. You haven't proven me wrong because you can not fight against Christ's words and win. Say whatever you want- truth is truth. John was Elijah the man, Elijah the spirit-can not have one without the other we are not split beings. Get over yourself. Can"t have the Spirit of one and the flesh of another if anything sounds crazy that does. You can believe what you want, I'll take Christ as His word. God Bless!

You claim scripture doesn't lie yet you contradict the prophet Malachi when he clearly stated Elijah's return to be during the end times before the day of the lord, not 2,000 years ago.

 

[EndTimeWine]

So you do believe the Bible teaches reincarnation, only for Elijah, Enoch, John the Baptist and Jesus. Well, even with them, it is NOT in any way reincarnation. Reincarnation is the transformation of your entire being from one body to another as a completely different being. It could be in the form of an animal or another human. Whereas the Bible teaches regeneration, which is the return of the same mind body and spirit, either as it was before, or glorified and made new like the body of Jesus. You are claiming the Bible teaches the former, which is heresy, that you call "God's providence". John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah does not make him Elijah. When the real Elijah makes a return, it is stated to be before the day of the lord, his second coming, not before the birth of Jesus Christ, meaning his return will be during the end times.

I did not say I believe in reincarnation you said that must be what I believe in . I said if you want to call it that go right ahead. Again not to good with reading words. Stop interpreting, you are going to hurt yourself. You are ill read and ill-informed you believe it is a statement of reincarnation. There is no Aha, gotcha moment. His return is!, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, hence the Prophet John who came before that day obviously? I know how people like you hate to be proven wrong- then you just continue to bury yourselves deeper and deeper. I have said all that needs to be said because I spoke from the Word. You can continue to squabble with someone else. Read the previous post my words are that of Christ's. God Bless!

 

[Dcopymope]

I did not say I believe in reincarnation you said that must be what I believe in . I said if you want to call it that go right ahead. Again not to good with reading words. Stop interpreting, you are going to hurt yourself. You are ill read and ill-informed you believe it is a statement of reincarnation. There is no Aha, gotcha moment.

What you said: "As for reincarnation and the definition you cling to, I do not. I believe this has only been purposed for Enoch, Elijah and St. John the Beloved of Christ. That does not constitute belief in reincarnation as pertaining to all people. Just these men of God. Scripture does not lie."

So now you are flip flopping and claiming you don't believe in reincarnation for Enoch, Elijah, John and Jesus? Got it.

His return is!, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, hence the Prophet John who came before that day obviously? I know how people like you hate to be proven wrong- then you just continue to bury yourselves deeper and deeper. I have said all that needs to be said because I spoke from the Word. You can continue to squabble with someone else. Read the previous post my words are that of Christ's. God Bless!

So the birth of our savior was a "dreadful" day? At what point?

 

[EndTimeWine]

What you said: "As for reincarnation and the definition you cling to, I do not. I believe this has only been purposed for Enoch, Elijah and St. John the Beloved of Christ. That does not constitute belief in reincarnation as pertaining to all people. Just these men of God. Scripture does not lie."

So now you are flip flopping and claiming you don't believe in reincarnation for Enoch, Elijah, John and Jesus? Got it.



So the birth of our savior was a "dreadful" day? At what point?

No His second coming is. Do not take one line of my comment and make that the sum of my argument. You brought up reincarnation. I said I do not believe it as you define it. You used it as an example, I said I believe it is God's providence. Then you brought up regeneration, which I think is a better term. I will probably use that in future posts instead of providence. It is a good definition, thank you. God Bless!

 

[Dcopymope]

No His second coming is. Do not take one line of my comment and make that the sum of my argument. You brought up reincarnation. I said I do not believe it as you define it. You used it as an example, I said I believe it is God's providence. Then you brought up regeneration, which I think is a better term. I will probably use that in future post instead of providence. It is a good definition, thank you. God Bless!

You were the one claiming that John the Baptist is Elijah, henceforth meaning that he comes before the birth of Jesus, meaning the birth of our savior is somehow that "great and dreadful" being referred to by Malachi. You claim you don't believe in reincarnation except for a select few. This is what YOU claimed, and now you are flip flopping and claiming you don't believe in it at all. You can't have it both ways, reincarnation is either biblical or not at all.

 

[bbyrd009]

you disagree that it is possible to adopt a self-serving perspective at a passage without realizing it? Hmm. But i mostly was looking for some acknowledgement that we are free to disagree, which you have done. That is really all i was going for.

ah, nevermind then

 

[101G]

Dcopymope reproved no one. Scripture does not lie. Put whatever you want down firmly the Lord put the Word down firmly- it is not my words you are rejecting but His. You haven't proven me wrong because you can not fight against Christ's words and win. Say whatever you want- truth is truth. John was Elijah the man, Elijah the spirit-can not have one without the other we are not split beings. Get over yourself. Can"t have the Spirit of one and the flesh of another if anything sounds crazy that does. You can believe what you want, I'll take Christ as His word. God Bless!

"Put whatever you want down firmly the Lord put the Word down firmly", this is call "Rightly dividing the word of truth"

 

[Richard_oti]

dead bodies lie in the street? it's a reference to the violent death each received

"was crucified", neither were they laid in a tomb.

get the verse right, Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified". get a King James... (smile)

1901 ASV : WH. The verse is correct for the text.

 

[101G]

"was crucified", neither were they laid in a tomb.




1901 ASV : WH. The verse is correct for the text.

Yes, both was not, or had a proper burial. John head was without his body. and in the street in those day was the violence. now of days we have almost as much HOME violence as there are in the streets.

and no, the KJV, and the interlinear have it right.... (smile).

 

[Richard_oti]

Yes, both was not, or had a proper burial. John head was without his body. and in the street in those day was the violence. now of days we have almost as much HOME violence as there are in the streets.

Do you really think it is any different than it has been for thousands of years?

and no, the KJV, and the interlinear have it right.... (smile).

So basically, you are claiming that anything that is TR is based is correct / right, and anything else is "ERROR". At least, that is your usual method.

But I say unto you, that the differences can lend depth of understanding and insight.

I quote the ASV en main. If you would prefer, I can supply a transliteration instead.

Tehillim NA:Kh hen_'emet khaphatzta va-tukhot u-be-satum khakmah todi`eni:

Would that work better for you?

 

[101G]

Do you really think it is any different than it has been for thousands of years?

YES, I do. I can remember growing up when we could leave out door, as well as the screen door open when leaving our house. and this was in the twentieth century...... (smile)

So basically, you are claiming that anything that is TR is based is correct / right, and anything else is "ERROR". At least, that is your usual method.

No, I just used it a a second witness, hence TWO WITNESS...... (smile).

I quote the ASV en main. If you would prefer, I can supply a transliteration instead.

No need, "I'm GOOD"... (smile).

Would that work better for you?

no..... (smile).

Good day.

 

[101G]

now, before we get any further off subject. the identity of the two witness, as for me, still stand, John the Baptist, and the Lord Jesus the Christ. and their witness are still in the earth today. Baptism/REPENTANCE, and the TRUTH/Gospel. I still haven't heard any creditable name beside those mention, the Lord Jesus, and John the Baptist. any new pretenders to examine?.