Charles Spurgeon's Sanity Litmus Test (are you insane?)

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GodsGrace

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Well, why didn't Jesus just tell
nicodemus that. To be born again requires no supernatural act of God...one only needs to turn away from sin and you are born again. And you are given a helper. Turn back to sin, and you loose your salvation. And the helper.



Sounds like man decides.
Not God.
But you have already said that.
What you've stated is unfair.
It is NOT what KBC is saying.

YOU are speaking as though the sinner does not know God,
and KBC is speaking as one who does know God.

One is born again and then endeavers to make the sin nature to submit to God's will with the help of the Holy Spirit.

You make it sound like it's the opposite...
 

GodsGrace

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To turn from sins that you know is a first step but to be able to stop sinning altogether requires God's help. Man cannot avoid sinning on his own since you cannot know the mind of God without a direct line to them. The helper is that line and as the name states the helper is indeed a HELPER and not a do it for you because your too lazy to even try because some men said it can't be done. There was one man who showed us that living a righteous life is not only possible but guaranteed as long as you depend on the direction of God's spirit. Christ stated plainly that the Father lived in him and the helper will live in us but it is the choice of the free will to follow the direction or to go against it.
Does it sound like man decides?
Who decides to make the commitment?
Who chooses to repent?
Does God force people to do these things?
IF God is forcing people to be saved then why doesn't everyone say the same thing? why the diversity of doctrine?
is it Gods choice for men to have a multitude of different views about them?

Why would God say that he calls to people if it is not of their own free will that they answer the call?

Man cannot force God to accept them because it is his free will choice to give his gifts to whom he will. Would you give eternal life to a persistent sinner if you were God? Would you give eternal life to one who hates your ways and abhors your presence?
KBC
I don't know anyone who NEVER sins.
I know some who sin very little. Like some monks I know.
A Franciscan and some priests I know sin just like we do.
All men sin.

I do agree that our sin nature becomes submitted to God after knowing Jesus and I'd assume that it's basically because we hate to hurt His feelings...

I like 1 John 1 for this.
And I like Mathew 5:48 "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

I doubt very much, however, that Jesus thought we would ever really achieve this lofty goal.

What say you?
 

KBCid

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Perfectly said.
The only comment I have to make is that the way you word the "choosing" part does sound calvinistic.
God has already chosen everyone in the sense that HE would like everyone to be saved.
So the right way to say it would be that WE choose HIM.
That would clarify things.
What you're talking about when speaking about God choosing us, happens at the end of times, and I agree fully with what you've said.
Many are deceived and in danger, as your last paragraph shows.
Good post.

Maybe if I word it this way it may come across better;
God has chosen from the beginning a type and if we in our hearts with full intent do love God then we are trying to fit his predetermined type and he will see our pathetic attempt and see the how our heart yearns to be his children and he will have mercy and help us to attain the goal.

Indeed you are correct "we choose them" Father and Son

I have seen your posts and I know you understand these foundational concepts. I see in you what God has given you and the fruit it brings when you put your pen to paper. No one can know these things except God pulls back the veil and has mercy on the sinful child seeking the way to them and away from sin.

All I can add and have tried to say to you is that you will not find the truth through any church or sect or cult because they have been tainted by mans will and WILL steer you out of the path. Thus the spirit directs me to say;

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 
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KBCid

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I don't know anyone who NEVER sins.
I know some who sin very little. Like some monks I know.
A Franciscan and some priests I know sin just like we do.
All men sin.
I do agree that our sin nature becomes submitted to God after knowing Jesus and I'd assume that it's basically because we hate to hurt His feelings...
I like 1 John 1 for this.
And I like Mathew 5:48 "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
I doubt very much, however, that Jesus thought we would ever really achieve this lofty goal.
What say you?

Beautiful one
Remember that wide is the gate for those going to destruction... You see most sinning because they are not following correctly and are not guided by the spirit. Christ was our example and he said that he does nothing except what he see's the father do and it was the Fathers spirit in him that guided him in all things which is how he attained perfection.

Now think on these questions for a bit and tell me. Do you know what sin is? can you choose to not do them?

and consider further if you are doing your best to not sin the sins you know of and you suddenly are given the helper, how hard would it be then for you to avoid sinning if the spirit were to speak up every time you were to commit a sin you didn't know of or realize was a sin.... Could you follow the direction of the Holy Spirit if you were guided in this manner?

If you were the little girl in your avatar and I were to lead you around town and made sure to let you know when it is safe to cross the street or when to stop and let traffic pass, would you not make it safely to where we would be going? But what if you were an evil child who hated instruction and liked the thrill of denying authority and you bolted at every turn racing through traffic... whose fault would it be if you died?

In every example given I show as the spirit directs that it is the choice we make that make a difference to God. The Father is a loving Father and wants us to be with him but we have to love him in truth... we have to mean it from the heart... and there will be NOTHING that will stand in his way to keep us for himself and his Son.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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GG,

All I was saying is: "To be born again is to have a change of heart from the normal sinful one to one that seeks to be like God. When you make the effort / commitment to turn towards God and away from sin"

Does not sound the same as:

John 3:3 KJV
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:4-8 KJV
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

To be born again is supernatural.
It is a miracle.
Given from God.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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YOU are speaking as though the sinner does not know God,
and KBC is speaking as one who does know God.


The sinner can not know God. They can't know Him until they are born again, nor do they know us because we are of Him.
Before we are born again. We are dead. Dead works.

1 John 3:1 KJV
[1] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.


To be born again means:

You are given a new heart. A new life. It IS supernatural.

Ezekiel 11:19-21 KJV
[19] And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. [21] But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord God .

With this new heart with the Laws of God written upon it...for the first time man can see his sin and his trespasses against God and he repents. KBC, was right about mankind being beast (animal) before God opens their spiritual eyes. Animal(beast) cannot know God. Not to go off on another subject...but how are beast before the throne of God?


Do you know how many people I PRAY could recognize their sin? And they just can't see it? No matter how much I want it...to them there is no sin...no laws of God on their new heart for repentance.


Romans 7:9-22 KJV
[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me . [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


Then God says HE will cause this new man, this new Spirit to walk in His statutes. To be born again to perfection:

Where the Spirit is... there is Christ
Perfection. Righteousness. Relationship...IN Spirit. We either boast of our own work(flesh) Or boast work of Christ(Spirit) We either walk in Spirit (Christ) Or in flesh(dead works) To be double-minded is to be both:

Paul couldn't live by his own works of the law. And still preach freedom from works of the law IN Christ. Saul had to go. Paul was free from sin(through Christ/Spirit) People believe preaching liberty and freedom in Christ means preaching a license to sin. It is the exact opposite. There is power where the Spirit is but that Power is Christ...not man's ability to be good enough. Paul said the old man had died.

Finally to be born again:
When God creates new...the former passes away. When God says we are a new creation through rebirth...He means NEW...without the former

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 KJV
[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Revelation 21:1 KJV
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Revelation 21:4-5 KJV
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

We (those born of God) is all that will remain from the former and not because we are special or "have good qualities" but because we belong to the "new creation" being the amoung the first fruits of the "new creation". This new creation is Spirit. Flesh bears flesh. Spirit bears Spirit. The flesh has nothing to do with being "born again". The Spirit has everything to do with: the children born of God.

That is why we are not of this world.
We belong to "the new creation"
 
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Marymog

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Try reading Amoris Laetitea by Pope Francis, written about 2 years ago.
Especially chapter 8 and the footnote.

If you haven't read it yet, it's a small book
Here's chapter 8 from the internet. It's good enough.

I asked if you're Catholic because I'd like to know if you know any priests that are giving communion to remarrieds.

I do.


297.  It is a matter of reaching out to everyone, of needing to help each person find his or her proper way of participating in the ecclesial com-munity and thus to experience being touched by an “unmerited, unconditional and gratuitous” mercy. No one can be condemned for ever, be-cause that is not the logic of the Gospel! Here I am not speaking only of the divorced and re-married, but of everyone, in whatever situation they find themselves. Naturally, if someone flaunts an objective sin as if it were part of the

Christian ideal, or wants to impose something other than what the Church teaches, he or she can in no way presume to teach or preach to others; this is a case of something which separates from the community (cf. Mt 18:17). Such a person needs to listen once more to the Gospel message and its call to conversion. Yet even for that person there can be some way of taking part in the life of community, whether in social service, prayer meetings or another way that his or her own initiative, together with the discernment of the parish priest, may suggest. As for the way of dealing with different “irregular” situations, the Synod Fathers reached a general consensus, which I support: “In considering a pastoral approach towards people who have contracted a civil marriage, who are divorced and remarried, or simply living together, the Church has the responsibility of helping them understand the divine pedagogy of grace in their lives and offering them assistance so they can reach the fullness of God’s plan for them”,328 something which is always possible by the power of the Holy Spirit.

298.  The divorced who have entered a new un-ion, for example, can find themselves in a variety of situations, which should not be pigeonholed or fit into overly rigid classifications leaving no room for a suitable personal and pastoral discernment. One thing is a second union consolidated over time, with new children, proven fidelity, generous self giving, Christian commitment, a consciousness of its irregularity and of the great difficulty of going back without feeling in con-science that one would fall into new sins. The Church acknowledges situations “where, for serious reasons, such as the children’s upbringing, a man and woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate”.329 There are also the cases of those who made every effort to save their first marriage and were unjustly abandoned, or of “those who have entered into a second union for the sake of the children’s upbringing, and are some-times subjectively certain in conscience that their previous and irreparably broken marriage had never been valid”.330 Another thing is a new un-ion arising from a recent divorce, with all the suffering and confusion which this entails for children and entire families, or the case of someone who has consistently failed in his obligations to the family. It must remain clear that this is not the ideal which the Gospel proposes for marriage and the family. The Synod Fathers stated that the discernment of pastors must always take place “by adequately distinguishing”,331 with an approach which “care-fully discerns situations”.332 We know that no “easy recipes” exist.333

I'm sure you understand that chapter 8 is longer than the above...
P.S. The change in doctrine is not announced...but it is defacto.
A change HAS occurred.
Thank you GG. Finally we agree....The change in doctrine is not announced. I might add there is nothing to announce because no change has been made. Amoris Laetitia cannot be interpreted in a way that violates the Church’s previous teaching.

If there are individual priest violating Church teaching their Bishop should educate/correct/reprimand them.

I am currently attending RCIA. I do not know if the priest at my church is violating Church teaching.

IHS...Mary
 

Marymog

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Because its not mine.
When you say "mine" does that mean you are able to read scripture and infallibly interpret it all on your own? You don't refer to Apostolic or Early Church Fathers writings? Your only source is scripture?

Mary
 

GodsGrace

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Thank you GG. Finally we agree....The change in doctrine is not announced. I might add there is nothing to announce because no change has been made. Amoris Laetitia cannot be interpreted in a way that violates the Church’s previous teaching.

If there are individual priest violating Church teaching their Bishop should educate/correct/reprimand them.

I am currently attending RCIA. I do not know if the priest at my church is violating Church teaching.

IHS...Mary
Hi Mary,
I asked you for a specific reason if you're Catholic.
I try to be careful as to what I say and to whom.
Since you're attending RCIA right now, you have enough on your hands.

I find that this Pope is very pastoral-like as where Pope Benedict was a real theologian and thus was much stricter.

The Catholic church is a good church and seems to be one of the few that has stood by what it believes through all societal changes and upheavels that have come about lately.

Some would like to call it a cult and some would like to say it's not the original church-- but one had to be traced back to the Apostles and indeed it is the CC.

Keep studying and never stop.
It's always nice to speak with you.
 
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GodsGrace

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The sinner can not know God. They can't know Him until they are born again, nor do they know us because we are of Him.
Before we are born again. We are dead. Dead works.

1 John 3:1 KJV
[1] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.


To be born again means:

You are given a new heart. A new life. It IS supernatural.

Ezekiel 11:19-21 KJV
[19] And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. [21] But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord God .

With this new heart with the Laws of God written upon it...for the first time man can see his sin and his trespasses against God and he repents. KBC, was right about mankind being beast (animal) before God opens their spiritual eyes. Animal(beast) cannot know God. Not to go off on another subject...but how are beast before the throne of God?


Do you know how many people I PRAY could recognize their sin? And they just can't see it? No matter how much I want it...to them there is no sin...no laws of God on their new heart for repentance.


Romans 7:9-22 KJV
[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me . [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


Then God says HE will cause this new man, this new Spirit to walk in His statutes. To be born again to perfection:

Where the Spirit is... there is Christ
Perfection. Righteousness. Relationship...IN Spirit. We either boast of our own work(flesh) Or boast work of Christ(Spirit) We either walk in Spirit (Christ) Or in flesh(dead works) To be double-minded is to be both:

Paul couldn't live by his own works of the law. And still preach freedom from works of the law IN Christ. Saul had to go. Paul was free from sin(through Christ/Spirit) People believe preaching liberty and freedom in Christ means preaching a license to sin. It is the exact opposite. There is power where the Spirit is but that Power is Christ...not man's ability to be good enough. Paul said the old man had died.

Finally to be born again:
When God creates new...the former passes away. When God says we are a new creation through rebirth...He means NEW...without the former

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 KJV
[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Revelation 21:1 KJV
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Revelation 21:4-5 KJV
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

We (those born of God) is all that will remain from the former and not because we are special or "have good qualities" but because we belong to the "new creation" being the amoung the first fruits of the "new creation". This new creation is Spirit. Flesh bears flesh. Spirit bears Spirit. The flesh has nothing to do with being "born again". The Spirit has everything to do with: the children born of God.

That is why we are not of this world.
We belong to "the new creation"

Excellent post !
You really like to explain everything really well.
It makes me wonder if you're a young person or if you're a new Christian. Only because I used to be this way too, but I've calmed down a bit! Not that you should calm down...

I agree with everything you've said regarding the new creation.
I would tend not to disagree with you because your ideas are beautiful and no one should argue with you.

There is a movement, however, in the church and it's called the Perfection Movement, or something like that.
It teaches that we LITERALLY stop sinning. The reason I'm very against this movement is because we will sin until the day we die, and if a new Christian believes this and is all fired up and then realizes at some point that he indeed is sinning, what will happen to him? Will he be so disappointed that he feels God didn't work properly in him, or that God no longer loves him?

This is my only concern. To these I ask what they think sin is.
And also, it sounds like you believe we no longer have the sin nature.
To which I would ask, then what makes us sin?

I don't ask to discourage you. I also don't care for those who say that we will keep on sinning as if we really can't stop at all. I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us to cut down a great deal on sin. Why --- because we're more aware of it and because the closer we get to God the more we feel like we sin because we become more sensitive to it, when, in fact, we're sinning less and less.
 

EndTimeWine

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Excellent post !
You really like to explain everything really well.
It makes me wonder if you're a young person or if you're a new Christian. Only because I used to be this way too, but I've calmed down a bit! Not that you should calm down...

I agree with everything you've said regarding the new creation.
I would tend not to disagree with you because your ideas are beautiful and no one should argue with you.

There is a movement, however, in the church and it's called the Perfection Movement, or something like that.
It teaches that we LITERALLY stop sinning. The reason I'm very against this movement is because we will sin until the day we die, and if a new Christian believes this and is all fired up and then realizes at some point that he indeed is sinning, what will happen to him? Will he be so disappointed that he feels God didn't work properly in him, or that God no longer loves him?

This is my only concern. To these I ask what they think sin is.
And also, it sounds like you believe we no longer have the sin nature.
To which I would ask, then what makes us sin?

I don't ask to discourage you. I also don't care for those who say that we will keep on sinning as if we really can't stop at all. I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us to cut down a great deal on sin. Why --- because we're more aware of it and because the closer we get to God the more we feel like we sin because we become more sensitive to it, when, in fact, we're sinning less and less.

We do not sin til the day we die, 1John3:4-10, Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is NO sin. NO ONE who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or know Him. Little children, let NO ONE DECEIVE YOU. He who does right is righteous, as He is Righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. THE REASON THE SON OF GOD APPEARED WAS TO DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL. NO ONE BORN OF GOD COMMITS SIN; for GOD"S NATURE ABIDES IN HIM, and he cannot sin because he is BORN OF GOD. By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are of the devil: whoever does not do right is NOT OF GOD, nor he who does not love his brother.

Once you are born again, and I am not speaking of the denomination but the true meaning- you can not sin for you are born of God. God Bless!
 
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KBCid

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When you say "mine" does that mean you are able to read scripture and infallibly interpret it all on your own? You don't refer to Apostolic or Early Church Fathers writings? Your only source is scripture? Mary

I follow the Spirit who leads into all truth;

Is 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD...
14In righteousness shalt thou be established...
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

You and I have nothing in common.
 
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GodsGrace

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I follow the Spirit who leads into all truth;

Is 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD...
14In righteousness shalt thou be established...
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

You and I have nothing in common.
My dear KBC
Is Christianity not splintered enough?
You and MM and I have something very important in common:
JESUS.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Philippians 2:2

There's only ONE Holy Spirit KBC.
And He's leading all of us.

John 13:35

Peace.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us to cut down a great deal on sin. Why --- because we're more aware of it and because the closer we get to God the more we feel like we sin because we become more sensitive to it, when, in fact, we're sinning less and less.

You said it best. The closer we get to God; the more we are aware of what is contrary to Him.

I believe the new creation that I am in Christ does not have a sin nature. My new Spirit from God, born of God...is pure and will be allowed into the Kingdom of God. My progress report is graded on Christ's merit and His alone.

Why does my flesh still do that which is against God? Because it is flesh. It does what flesh is known to do; sin. But it is dead and no longer holds power over what God has created new. Does that mean I don't see it? No. I see it. But those things that others call sin, I might not agree. Sin are those ugly things that pour out of our heart and can be heard in our speech: the tongue tells the truth. hate, judgment, discrimination, unforgiveness. Those are the things the Spirit convicts and replaces with perfect love. Yet still, sometimes my flesh wants to hate, Judge, and withhold forgiveness. The Spirit rebukes the flesh because that is no longer the heart I have.