Redemption ?

[101G]

Mary needed a Savior just like the rest of humanity. The Catholic Church teaches this.

you are very right. Luke 1:46-49"And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name".

if Mary was so holy and perfect, and sitting.... (smile) next to the Lord Jesus as CO-??????? how come she need a Saviour.... like everyone else?.

this is the difference between the catholic church and the Roman catholic church. man made doctrine vs God Doctrine.

Peace in Christ Yeshua/Jesus.

 

[BreadOfLife]

on point

Judging by all of your posts - I'm confident that you didn't even understand what Nomad was saying . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

you are very right. Luke 1:46-49"And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name".

if Mary was so holy and perfect, and sitting.... (smile) next to the Lord Jesus as CO-??????? how come she need a Saviour.... like everyone else?.

this is the difference between the catholic church and the Roman catholic church. man made doctrine vs God Doctrine.

Peace in Christ Yeshua/Jesus.

EVERY created being needs a savior.
YOUR problem is that you lie so much about what Catholics believe that you don't understand this.

Mary was saved - she didn't save herself . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your lawyer speak says more about you than me.

No - your hypocrisy and contradiction speak for themselves . . .

 

[Dcopymope]

EVERY created being needs a savior.
YOUR problem is that you lie so much about what Catholics believe that you don't understand this.

Mary was saved - she didn't save herself . . .

Is Mary co-redeemer?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I explained already. If you need a summary or a clearer explanation I will obligue. But if you ignored it the first time... Why should I bother?

It's just a cop-out on your part.

If they are in the flesh they are sinners. Thats what the Bible says. Besides, Mary didn't stay a baby.
If they are in the flesh they are sinners. Besides, Mary was born.

No - that's NOT what Rom. 3 says. It says that they HAVE SINNED.
Babies and unborn children can't sin - so, "ALL" doesn't actually mean every individual

You got me there. The Bible notes Jesus as being the only exception. Besides, Mary wasn't Jesus. "Oh... I asked you not the Bible!" well, i believe what the Bible says.

Ahhh - but not according to YOUR flawed interpretation of Rom. 3:10 which says ALL have sinned.
Why doesn't is say ALL, except for Jesus?
You can't have it both ways here . . .

She was full of grace? Grace is meant to cover sins. Her sins were covered.
People who are under grace still sin in the flesh. Its just that they are forgiven, covered and not imputed.

NOT according to "Kecharitomene".
It means completely and enduringly endowed with grace - a completed action with a permanent result.

You'll have to do better than that . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Is Mary co-redeemer?

According to Paul - we are ALL called to be co-redeemers:
Col. 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Peter said that Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Pet. 4:8).

 

[Dcopymope]

According to Paul - we are ALL called to be co-redeemers:
Col. 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Peter said that Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Pet. 4:8).

Peter's love covers a multitude of HIS sins, not my sins because Peter is not responsible for my own personal salvation, I am when it comes down to it.

(Matthew 6:14-15) "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: {15} But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

But regardless, that still doesn't answer my question. My question is am I saved in the name and authority of Mary?

 

[EndTimeWine]

Is Mary co-redeemer?

post #33 @EndTimeWine

According to Paul - we are ALL called to be co-redeemers:
Col. 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Peter said that Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Pet. 4:8).

Mary's blood does not cleanse us ,Paul's Blood does not cleans us , Only Christ's blood can do this. And proof of this is in the last supper. The wine is turned into his blood, and we do this in memory of Him not Paul or Mary.

What Paul is saying in this verse, isn't that Christ was lacking something in His affliction but that Paul is lacking, and he needs to fill his flesh with what is lacking , suffering in regard to Christ's afflictions ( Regard also means Esteem) Paul is esteeming Christ's afflictions, which CHRIST suffered for all men, for the sake of His Body, which is the church.

The way you use this verse would give one the impression that Paul was saying something was lacking in Christ's perfect sacrifice… 2Peter3:15-17 ,15Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard not to be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.….

It was completion-not Lacking. PERFECT!

 

[Dcopymope]

post #33 @EndTimeWine

Paul's Blood does not cleans us , Only Christ's blood can do this. And proof of this is in the last supper. The wine is turned into his blood, and we do this in memory of Him not Paul. What Paul is saying in this verse, isn't that Christ was lacking something in His affliction but that Paul is lacking, and he needs to fill his flesh with what is lacking , suffering in regard to Christ's afflictions ( Regard also means Esteem) Paul is esteeming Christ's afflictions, which CHRIST suffered for all men, for the sake of His Body, which is the church. The way you use this verse would give one the impression that Paul was saying something was lacking in Christ's perfect sacrifice… 2Peter3:15-17 ,15Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard not to be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.….

It was completion-not Lacking. PERFECT!

If that's how Catholics see such verses, if that's how they define "love covers a multitude of sins", then its no wonder why many of them pray to Mary, and why they have priests who call themselves "father". False interpretations galore. If I need any other redeemer than Jesus Christ like BreadofLife seems to believe, then Jesus Christ's sacrifice was in vain. There is only one redeemer.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Peter's love covers a multitude of HIS sins, not my sins because Peter is not responsible for my own personal salvation, I am when it comes down to it.

But regardless, that still doesn't answer my question. My question is am I saved in the name and authority of Mary?

Fist of all - that wasn't your question.
Your question was: "Is Mary co-redeemer?"

I showed you where Paul says that we are ALL co-redeemers.
James agrees:

James 5:20
Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[BreadOfLife]

post #33 @EndTimeWine

Mary's blood does not cleanse us ,Paul's Blood does not cleans us , Only Christ's blood can do this. And proof of this is in the last supper. The wine is turned into his blood, and we do this in memory of Him not Paul or Mary.

What Paul is saying in this verse, isn't that Christ was lacking something in His affliction but that Paul is lacking, and he needs to fill his flesh with what is lacking , suffering in regard to Christ's afflictions ( Regard also means Esteem) Paul is esteeming Christ's afflictions, which CHRIST suffered for all men, for the sake of His Body, which is the church.

The way you use this verse would give one the impression that Paul was saying something was lacking in Christ's perfect sacrifice… 2Peter3:15-17 ,15Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard not to be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.….

It was completion-not Lacking. PERFECT!

First of all - "Redeem" doesn't mean to "clean" - it meas to PAY for.

Paul wasn't saying the the sufferings of Christ were insufficient. He was saying that he (Paul) ALSO suffered for the sake of the Church. It is in this sense that we are ALL called upon to be co-redeemers.

Jesus warned that we would suffer - and NOT just for ourselves but for the sake of the Gospel.

 

[Dcopymope]

Fist of all - that wasn't your question.
Your question was: "Is Mary co-redeemer?"

I showed you where Paul says that we are ALL co-redeemers.
James agrees:

James 5:20
Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

I don't see the word "redeemer" in any verse you have cited thus far. That title is reserved for Jesus Christ only.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't see the word "redeemer" in any verse you have cited thus far. That title is reserved for Jesus Christ only.

Really?
You're going to use that lame argument??

I don't see the word "Trinity" either - but it is a Scriptural reality.
I don't see the word "Incarnation" in the Bible - but it's a Scriptural reality.
I don't see the word "Revival" in the Bible - but it's a reality.
I don't see the word "Bible" in the Bible - but it's a reality.

Gotta do better than that . . .

 

[Dcopymope]

Really?
You're going to use that lame argument??

I don't see the word "Trinity" either - but it is a Scriptural reality.
I don't see the word "Incarnation" in the Bible - but it's a Scriptural reality.
I don't see the word "Revival" in the Bible - but it's a reality.
I don't see the word "Bible" in the Bible - but it's a reality.

Gotta do better than that . . .

If the subject of the verses in question aren't about the "trinity", "incarnation", "revival", or whatever else you want to add onto it, then your argument is nothing less than a logical fallacy. You are the one claiming that those verses are calling us all to be "co-redeemers", so that burden of proof is on you. As far as I can tell, the only "redeemer" spoken of in the Bible is Jesus Christ.

 

[EndTimeWine]

If that's how Catholics see such verses, if that's how they define "love covers a multitude of sins", then its no wonder why many of them pray to Mary, and why they have priests who call themselves "father". False interpretations galore. If I need any other redeemer than Jesus Christ like BreadofLife seems to believe, then Jesus Christ's sacrifice was in vain. There is only one redeemer.

Okay, so that you know I am not Protestant or Catholic, I am Christian , I do believe in veneration. And I do believe Mary is a mediator and intercessor and all the Saints of God are. She first then all else. There is no problem with the rosary it is a scriptural based meditation and repetition does not change the fact it is meditating on the life and words of scripture. This is a time for the Bride to edify the world. It will be laborious and her nourishment will come when she has brought forth the male child. Rev.12 . If you have not read my many post or threads you will not understand what I am called to do.I am called to give glory to our Our Lord and esteem to Mary and the Saints. I exclude no one from the body of Christ. Mary is my mother because she is my Lords mother, and I love her with the love that is in my Lord. Her purpose has NOT changed since the inception of Christianity, which took place in her with her yes, SHE IS TO LABOR TO BRING FORTH CHRIST THEN AND NOW. But now she prays for us in heaven and appeals to Christ when needed.And she is a visitor of souls, But Christ is the ONLY mediator between God the Father and man. All else are between Christ and man.

 

[Dcopymope]

Okay, so that you know I am not Protestant or Catholic, I am Christian , I do believe in veneration. And I do believe Mary is a mediator and intercessor and all the Saints of God are.

You can believe whatever you want, I don't have to take it seriously if you can't back it up with scripture. The only mediator between the Father and his creation that I know of is Jesus Christ.

 

[Nomad]

First of all - Immanuel (God is with us) is a verb and is ALSO a title.

Wrong. Immanuel is a noun, not a verb. And we are told explicitly, in context, that "they shall call his name Immanuel." There are no such statements or indications in the context of Luke 1:28. Sorry your view here is completely without foundation.

Emmanouēl
Thayer Definition:
Emmanuel = “God with us”
1) the title applied to the Messiah, born of the virgin, Mat_1:23, Is. Mat_7:14, because Jesus was God united with man, and showed that God was dwelling with man
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine

Secondly, the root word is used several times in the NT - but not in the sense that it is completely and enduringly endowed or indicating a permanent result. You'll have to do better than that . . .

Wrong again. Charitoo is used only twice in the NT -- Luke and Ephesians. Also, perfect tense verbs are used throughout the NT and they all have the "sense," as you put it, of completed action with abiding results. That is what the perfect tense is meant to convey and there is nothing special about it's use in Luke 1:28. Once again, you're reading things into the text that just aren't there. That's what an unwavering desire to uphold unbiblical traditions will force you to do.

 

[EndTimeWine]

First of all - "Redeem" doesn't mean to "clean" - it meas to PAY for.

Paul wasn't saying the the sufferings of Christ were insufficient. He was saying that he (Paul) ALSO suffered for the sake of the Church. It is in this sense that we are ALL called upon to be co-redeemers.

Jesus warned that we would suffer - and NOT just for ourselves but for the sake of the Gospel.

In His body we are redeemed and in His blood we are cleansed. And yes we are to suffer as he said, but all are redeemed in Him Only. Can not have one without the other. Redeem is to clean house. I did not say Paul said His suffering was insufficient, you said it with your false application of scripture. You used it as a support of your claim that Mary and all believers are co-redeemers. I am saying as Paul said, we are minsters to the faith, we administer Christ to the lost. We bring them to Christ who is the Redeemer , therefore redeems. There redemption has nothing to do with our living or dying. That is why your application and understanding of Paul's words are wrong. If you receive Christ it will make no difference to Paul's suffering. What is true is that witnessing someone's suffering for the faith could strength yours or even bring someone to their Redeemer, Christ. But it is not Paul's or anyone's Blood and Body in which you are saved. Paul is a minister as he said, not co-redeemer.

 

[EndTimeWine]

You can believe whatever you want, I don't have to take it seriously if you can't back it up with scripture. The only mediator between the Father and his creation that I know of is Jesus Christ.

You are right and I never said differently. I said we are mediators between man and Christ. John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, " Peace be with you. AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME I send You." And when He said this , He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any they, are retained." Now, in this verse what does (AS) mean, (AS) means in like manner. This means the disciples are mediators to others.... between men and Christ. VERY SIMPLE. Mediator meaning:


me·di·a·tor
ˈmēdēˌādər/
noun
noun: mediator; plural noun: mediators
a person who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between.
"the government appointed a mediator to assist in finding a resolution to the dispute"
synonyms: arbitrator, arbiter, negotiator, conciliator, peacemaker, go-between, middleman, intermediary, moderator, intervenor, intercessor, broker, honest broker, liaison officer; More
umpire, referee, adjudicator, judge
"the mediator in their salary dispute"


He also told them to "Go make disciples of all nations, Baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." And the cycle continues, and continues and continues. What is there to be confused about. You are right, about Christ and the Father because scripture can not be wrong and I am right about the disciple and Christ. All believers are to be officers, ministers, arbitrators, mediators ex... God Bless!