What constitutes the Church?

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In a thread I have been reading through today, the subject of what constitutes the Church came up, and there appears to be differing views concerning this. For my own part, I believe that the church being called out in this present time is that of (Eph 1:22-23)

'And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'

Do you think differently?

 

[Helen]

In a thread I have been reading through today, the subject of what constitutes the Church came up, and there appears to be differing views concerning this. For my own part, I believe that the church being called out in this present time is that of (Eph 1:22-23)

'And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'

Do you think differently?

Yes, I think I agree.
I believe the Church are the blood-washed...birthed through the Spirit..out of the side of Christ...( His side was pierced and out flowed water and blood) ..as the first Adam, so the Last Adam..the woman out of His side...the church.
I see no barrier of denominations...I see no denominations. God sees no Denominations , He see One Faith One Hope One Baptism One people...it is us who choose ( or not) to see splits and divisions in His Church and people.

 

[bbyrd009]

like Gospel, imo this ends up being a difficult term to define, i guess.

"the church, Which is His body" is a pretty...amorphous definition, after all. Ambiguous. Whatever :)

 

[BreadOfLife]

In a thread I have been reading through today, the subject of what constitutes the Church came up, and there appears to be differing views concerning this. For my own part, I believe that the church being called out in this present time is that of (Eph 1:22-23)

'And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'

Do you think differently?

Everybody has an opinion - and they don't matter.

The Scriptural definition of what the Church is supposed to be is clear:
- Jesus established ONE Church (Matt. 16:16-19). He prayed fervently that this Church remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). There is NO other.
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
- Jesus gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).

 

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Yes, I think I agree.
I believe the Church are the blood-washed...birthed through the Spirit..out of the side of Christ...( His side was pierced and out flowed water and blood) ..as the first Adam, so the Last Adam..the woman out of His side...the church.
I see no barrier of denominations...I see no denominations. God sees no Denominations , He see One Faith One Hope One Baptism One people...it is us who choose ( or not) to see splits and divisions in His Church and people.

Hello @"By Grace",

Thank you for your response.

* I like your words, "I think I agree", B.G., and understand why you would introduce that element of doubt, for you are not entirely sure what I mean by quoting that particular verse out of all the others I may have used.

* I agree that the individual members of the Church, are, 'birthed through the Spirit' - Praise God!

* I agree wholeheartedly with your use of Ephesians 4, and the seven-fold unity that God Himself has created, which we are called upon to 'keep', in which there is only 'One Body': for by introducing factions, in the form of denominations, we are failing to keep that unity, I believe.

* Sometime I would like to consider with you the illustration you have used (quote)I believe the Church are the blood-washed...birthed through the Spirit..out of the side of Christ...( His side was pierced and out flowed water and blood) ..as the first Adam, so the Last Adam..the woman out of His side...the church.

Another time perhaps.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

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like Gospel, imo this ends up being a difficult term to define, i guess.

"the church, Which is His body" is a pretty...amorphous definition, after all. Ambiguous. Whatever :)

Hello @bbyrd009,

I agree that the quotation of Eph. 1:22-23, 'the church which is His body', is inadequate to describe the wider application of the word, Church. However, I do believe that it is this definition which describes the church which is being called out today. A study of the use of the word ,'church', as used by the Holy Spirit, in the Scriptures, is a must though I agree, if we want to fully appreciate the various aspects of it.

The church is a 'called out' company of believers, an ekklesia, an assembly. Who have been 'quickened', or made alive in Christ (Eph. 2:1-5).

'And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air,
the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;
and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )'
(Eph 2:1-5)

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

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Everybody has an opinion - and they don't matter.

The Scriptural definition of what the Church is supposed to be is clear:
- Jesus established ONE Church (Matt. 16:16-19). He prayed fervently that this Church remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). There is NO other.
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
- Jesus gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).

Hello @BreadOfLife,

Thank you for giving so many Scriptures as confirmation. Though I must respectfully disagree with your interpretation of 1 Tim. 3:15-16.

'But if I tarry long,
that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God, ---
--- the pillar and ground of the truth (.)
and without controversy great
is the mystery of godliness:
.. God was manifest in the flesh,
.... justified in the Spirit,
...... seen of angels,
........ preached unto the Gentiles,
.......... believed on in the world,
............ received up into glory.'

* The truth of Christ, (as, 'The mystery of godliness' described), is the pillar and ground of the truth, not the church itself. The punctuation of this verse, added by the translators, is not helpful here.

I also disagree with your final point. (quote) - Jesus gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).

* In each of the Scriptures you have provided, it is either the twelve disciples, or the seventy chosen and equipped by God for the particular service they were called upon to perform. This does not apply to the church.

The church, is a called out company, an assembly, known of God, but largely unknown to one another.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

The church is a 'called out' company of believers, an ekklesia, an assembly. Who have been 'quickened', or made alive in Christ

nice, all that i agree with; it is when we assume that we can define or identify this ecclesia that imo we run into trouble.

 

[bbyrd009]

* Christ, (as, 'The mystery of godliness' described), is the pillar and ground of the truth, not the church itself. The punctuation of this verse, added by the translators, is not helpful here.

ya, interesting to me that a simple "...Who is..." or "...which is..." in there would have cleared that up, yet the author refrained from adding this in that spot, while obviously putting in a "which is" where it isn't really even needed?

"how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God, ---
--- the pillar and ground of the truth (.)"

as after all, it would be hard to disconnect "house of God" from "church of the living God," at least imo.

This does not apply to the church.

hmm, why do you say?

The church, is a called out company, an assembly, known of God, but largely unknown to one another.

at least by sight, i agree, but i'm surprised that you would go there, this is hardly a concept that many Christians seem to embrace!

 

[complete]

'These things write I unto thee
hoping to come unto thee shortly
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself
in the house of God which is the church of the living God
The pillar and ground of the truth
and without controversy great
is the mystery of godliness
.. God was manifest in the flesh
.... justified in the Spirit
...... seen of angels
........ preached unto the Gentiles
.......... believed on in the world
............ received up into glory'
(1 Tim. 3:14-16)

@bbyrd009:
Hmmm why do you say that?

Hello @bbyrd009,

* Why do I say that the pillar and ground of the truth is not the Church?
Well, I believe that 'the pillar and ground of the truth' belong to what follows, (above) ie., 'The mystery of godliness', and not to what came before ie., 'the church of the living God'.(1 Tim 3:15-16)

* Why do I say that it does not apply to the church?
Because Paul's reference is to 'a' church, he is giving instruction as to how that assembly should behave as members of the church of the Living God, identified as it is with the ascended Christ, Who is at God's right hand.

* The truth concerning Christ Jesus, risen and glorified, described in these verses as 'the mystery of godliness' is the pillar and ground of the truth.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

* Why do I say that it does not apply to the church?
Because Paul's reference is to 'a' church, he is giving instruction as to how that assembly should behave as members of the church of the Living God.

i guess i would have to backtrack and figure out which "Scriptures you have provided" you are talking about, below, but i'm still having trouble making any sense of

* In each of the Scriptures you have provided, it is either the twelve disciples, or the seventy chosen and equipped by God for the particular service they were called upon to perform. This does not apply to the church.

bc the 12 and the 72 are def in the Church, seems to me?

 

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Hello again, @bbyrd009,

In responding to your post, I thought of something similar, which I thought would be worthwhile sharing with you.

'He saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?"
And Simon Peter answered and said,
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus answered and said unto him,
"Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."'
(Mat 16:15-18)

Here, it is the Truth concerning Christ, revealed to Peter by God the Father, ie., 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' which our Lord is referring to as, 'The Rock' upon which He would build His church. It is not Peter as some say. This is the same principle as that which I have been talking about regarding 1 Tim. 3:14-16.

It is the truth concerning the ascended and glorified Christ (the mystery of godliness), made known to Paul, and through Him to Timothy: that is the pillar and ground of the truth. This is the truth pertaining to the Church of the Living God. Which is not a man-made company, not visible to the eye of man at all, but known of God and precious. This is the church of the One Body of which Christ is the Head (Col.1:18).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

bbyrd009:
bc the 12 and the 72 are def in the Church, seems to me?

Hi there, @bbyrd009,

The fact that matters is that the Scriptures that @BreadOfLife gave in his last point (in reply#4):- (quote) Jesus gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23): - referred to either the twelve, or to a further seventy selected, equipped and sent out. Each had been equipped for a special work of service and it is they that had been granted special authority to accomplish that task. The authority bestowed to them for that purpose did not refer to the church generally.

Forgive me if I am confusing you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

Here, it is the Truth concerning Christ, revealed to Peter by God the Father, ie., 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' which our Lord is referring to as, 'The Rock' upon which He would build His church. It is not Peter as some say. This is the same principle as that which I have been talking about regarding 1 Tim. 3:14-16.

yes, Dialectic misdirection, seen the thread? i was waiting for someone to bring out the misdirection part to go into it more, i only just mentioned it, bc trying to get one's head around a foreign concept for even thinking is tough enough, ppl are like "dialectic, gimme a break" lol. Even though we are all totally comfy with Hegelian Dialectic lol, we all use it every day, but just don't know that that is what it is called.

Obviously God is the Pillar, but if one wants to read that the church is, bad enough say, to forward an agenda, that is virtually being encouraged, right. As long as you don't read down any further lol. Verses in isolation. Dang i'm seeing analogues to how someone bent on deceit isolates someone else too now, gonna turn this post into mush

The Christ/Rock/Peter passage is screaming it, grabbing you by the ear and almost demanding you to perceive some human as the Rock, yes. Very carefully phrased, i bet it took a while to get just right.

 

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yes, Dialectic misdirection, seen the thread? Obviously God is the Pillar, but if one wants to read that the church is bad enough, say, to forward an agenda, that is virtually being encouraged, right

Re: Matthew 16:15-18
It is a Scripture which has been abused, I agree. @bbyrd009

 

[bbyrd009]

And I say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church;

after all, if i am saying also unto thee, then "upon this" is not even the correct syntax, right.
hidden right there in plain sight, once you see it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Forgive me if I am confusing you.

ok, not confused there, i don't think, so much as i just disagree, and imo the difference lies in the definition of "Church" there, which to BoL means the RCC. Iow his

Jesus gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven

which is really his and not yours, but you...nevermind, i agree with categorically, but you do not i guess? How do you separate the 12 or 72 from the Church?

referred to either the twelve, or to a further seventy selected, equipped and sent out. Each had been equipped for a special work of service and it is they that had been granted special authority to accomplish that task. The authority bestowed to them for that purpose

ah, what purpose? then it should clarify imo

 

[bbyrd009]

Re: Matthew 16:15-18
It is a Scripture which has been abused, I agree. @bbyrd009

thank God, imo. Abuser ID :)

 

[bbyrd009]

so now maybe we can have a convo on Speaking in Tongues; or at least soon.
be a good idea to go find it in the OT first and do a quick review i guess
Bible Search: speaking in tongues OT
save everyone a step :)

 

[bbyrd009]

hmm, must be over there by "fall of man" lol...
or maybe by "Peter at the Pearly Gates" maybe