What about Hell ?

[bbyrd009]

a non-existent hell is the definition of it for Christianity.

an astute observation imo, considering the current state of Western Christianity, i guess

... the tongue, is placed within us spotting and soiling our whole nature, and setting
the whole round of our lives on fire, being itself set on fire by Gehenna.

 

[bbyrd009]

why Gehenna some places, and Hades some others? One might wonder

and strictly speaking, Gehenna is mentioned OT, Hinnom, 12 times OT, 12 times as Gehenna NT

 

[Helen]

Is God Everywhere or isn’t He?

If Hell is separation from God, He who IS the source of all goodness,..... then by that definition, there is no way God can be in Hell!!
Yet the Psalms say:- "If I make my bed in Hell, behold, Thou art there." Psalm 139:8.
So then, what ever this Hell ...Sheol in Hebrew is, God IS there.
Both Paul and John inform us that everything that is made is of, to, and through Him. Col. 1:16-20; John 1:1

Everything is made through "the Word of God" Who is the Christ.
The modern church tells us that it is the actual separation from God ( Who we know is the source of all comforts), that makes people so miserable in Hell.......... Yet the Bible tells us that whatever we think goes on in Hell/Hades, it is going on "in the presence of the holy angels, and IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb!" Rev. 14:10.

I wonder if it is time to challenge the Bible translating and publishing of the mistranslating of the Greek N.T. word Gehenna as Hell?
Much as I love the KJV ..I at least don't get shaking into thinking that the translation of Hell is correct. But woe unto those who do ( mis-)read it and quake!!
This is a bad mistranslation of Gehenna that violently misrepresents the very Nature and Character of our Father and His Plan of the Salvation of the whole world.

 

[ScottA]

The word Hell is used a lot here it seems…so I thought it may be interesting to chat about it.
I am sure we have many different takes on it between us all. :)

I’ll kick it of with this.....

Those of us who have done a lot of witnessing , outreach , and trying to share our faith with unbelievers know that we are often confronted with many questions, especially on the subject of Hell and eternal punishment. We’ve been there, done that haven’t we.
We have found that many people have a real problem with Orthodox Christianity's belief that non-Christians will be punished eternally because they are not Christians.
We have found that this is one of the main reasons many Christians do NOT enjoy sharing their faith with the unsaved! They find themselves coming up short of good answers to questions or statements like these few below…..all viable questions from the unsaved point of view....but an answer has to be given when in a conversation.

"If my daughter is in Hell because she did not get "born again" then I'd rather go to Hell and be with her than to be with your God, because there would be more love in Hell than near your vindictive God."
Or….
"How can you believe that burning someone alive forever is "just" or "fair” God. Even we humans fit the punishment to the crime……..but according to Christians, unsaved people are destined to be burned in Hell whether we are bad or not."

"Just being born into this world is grounds for being endlessly tortured!!"

"You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. That does not sound like justice….it sounds like insanity!"

"Infinite punishment for finite crimes ….does that sound just doesn't seem to be for me..worldly judges do better than that!"

"I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? You make God look like a monster even worse than Hitler but not a loving Father Who would die for His enemies!"

"If Hell is real and the greatest part of humanity will go there, how can you say that - 'Love NEVER fails?’ Seems like Love fails most of the time according to your understanding of things."

"If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished in Hell "

Sadly THIS is the understanding that ‘the church’ has given to them over the decades…and we wonder why people aren’t flooding to the churches!?

Why don't the Jews…. many who know the Old Testament much better than we Christians do,... don’t believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell?

They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures.
Most scholars can't find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament.

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Does that make Him ‘ ppear' like a false teacher?

Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept like that in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added by the church and to some Bibles translations, through "traditions of men?"

It has been there all along:

Isaiah 50:11
Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled— This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment.

But Hell is just a word...just a word that denotes the finality of what comes in the end, whether it be everlasting life or not. Is it not obvious that where there is not life, there is death...that is forever?

 

[amadeus]

All of this goes along with the punishment for those who cannot feel God being death or hell. Now while we have this tad bit of carnal life [not the Life which Jesus is] we can receive little relief from the pain of the hell we are in. What does the apostle Paul mean by these words?

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

Even those who have hope in Jesus while in this carnal existence are really miserable, meaning that they [we] are still at the best tasting death and hell because even the suppressed old man still presses toward sin [hopefully mostly without success].

Two ways to look at this. One is the those without such hope [Jesus] are really dwelling in death, in hell. The second way is that if at our best times in Christ now, we are miserable, how great must it be to finally shed this misery and be always with Him in Life!

 

[bbyrd009]

Now while we have this tad bit of carnal life [not the Life which Jesus is]

The second way is that if at our best times in Christ now, we are miserable, how great must it be to finally shed this misery and be always with Him in Life!

man, i just could not tell you how uncomfortable this pov makes me, coming from you. I don't believe that Paul meant what you mean at all, bro. i read "rejoice" in those areas that you appear to be ok with "mourn" or whatever in, and etc. Guess i'll go dissect your ref and see. Am i reading that last part, "how great must it be to finally shed this misery and be always with Him in Life!" correctly, even? You are referring to after you die, iow?

 

[bbyrd009]

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable

31I affirm by the pride in you that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord: I die every day!

35But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?"
36Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

55Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?
56Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

so see, what is going on here is the same thing was going on at "absent from the body," and "19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" needs be read with different eyes imo. Paul's "dying" is not our "dying," and what he is doing is playing miserable people as "this life," and himself as already victorious

 

[amadeus]

man, i just could not tell you how uncomfortable this pov makes me, coming from you. I don't believe that Paul meant what you mean at all, bro. i read "rejoice" in those areas that you appear to be ok with "mourn" or whatever in, and etc. Guess i'll go dissect your ref and see. Am i reading that last part, "how great must it be to finally shed this misery and be always with Him in Life!" correctly, even? You are referring to after you die, iow?

I believe that we should be able to get there before we die based on what I see and understand in scripture.

Yes, as we surrender completely and we rejoice in what we have received there should be no misery at all. What did Stephen feel in his flesh as they were stoning him to death? He had his eyes on God as the stones were killing him. We can get some good things here. We can receive His love while we are here. We can shout praises from our heart while we are here. I have done it. I have had wonderful love from and to Him as I shouted and even as I ran in the Spirit because of what I felt, but I have also felt the miserable condition of the old man of me dragging on me especially when I have even momentarily looked away from Him.

We must consider where Job started in the first verse of the Book bearing his name. It says, "

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

From there did he not move straight into hell when the hedge was removed?

Where was Job at the end of the Book? Where are we after traveling through hell? Or... are we still in hell?

Give God the glory!

"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Phil 4:11-13

 

[bbyrd009]

ok, my bad, i read wrong i guess, ty. you baiting me or what?


other reflections are observed in changing where the stress on the passage is placed, to whit:
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable, as per
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[amadeus]

31I affirm by the pride in you that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord: I die every day!

Indeed, every single day:

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24"

The "new man" killing the "old man" until... until he does not rise ever again. When is that?

35

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?"
36Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

And so the daily dying is required. Sometimes when we allow ourselves to become weary in well doing letting the old man have his way... even for a moment... the dying becomes painful.

Did Jesus feel pain on his way to the cross and on the cross? But, he had to die. We have to die. Is there no pain?

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24

55Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?
56Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Even so...
"And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:56-29

so see, what is going on here is the same thing was going on at "absent from the body," and "19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" needs be read with different eyes imo. Paul's "dying" is not our "dying," and what he is doing is playing miserable people as "this life," and himself as already victorious

Yes, he was victorious and so may we be. But did even he do what I believe Stephen did, what Jesus did? Before his natural death, did he overcome completely the world of his own flesh? Was the old man completely dead? Was the vision of God before him in his last moment of natural life? Where was the pain?

Until we have completely kill that old man, likely there will be pain as Job suffered pain. While I believe it of Stephen, with Jesus I read the testimony:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

Now it is our turn, if we will...

 

[amadeus]

ok, my bad, i read wrong i guess, ty. you baiting me or what?

No, none of that. Straight from the heart.

other reflections are observed in changing where the stress on the passage is placed, to whit:
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable, as per
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Often when scripture speaks of "life" it is the life which Jesus is, but especially people who don't know better speak with their emphasis on the more temporary or even unreal life [death] of our flesh and bones. It is was they consider real and they, including Christians, act as if it is real. Consider your on little acronym: IRL [= In Real Life]. Any time anyone is in himself instead of in Christ, he may indeed be very miserable. The confusing part for many is that they believe or at least say [if they don't really believe] they since the received the gift of the Holy Ghost they are always in Christ. I believe more in a double minded way for most believers. Hopefully they [we] are moving more toward real Life and less toward the false life of the flesh.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[Helen]

Some good posts there! Amen. :)

BTW bbyrd...'absent from the body, present with the Lord'
Should be our daily experience don't you think?
You have once or twice mentioned the cave and the quiet silence...
Is that not- "absent from the body...and very present with the Lord?"
This is our victory... when we can actually live there...stay there...as it say of Joshua.. " He departed not from the tabernacle"
We too can 'depart not'...
The misery comes when we fail to 'live there'.

 

[bbyrd009]

The "new man" killing the "old man" until... until he does not rise ever again. When is that?

ya, when is that? are we talking individually, or corporately?

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."

ah, wonder what ol' Scottie thinks of this one lol

Even so...
"And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:56-29

see how far we have come? i can plainly state that i have heard the Word now--ok, maybe only like twice, my whole life, really clearly; still remember both times even--and i don't have to worry about getting literally stoned, at least.
i don't have to pretend i am religious anymore, or share beliefs that i do not hold; who could say that even 200 years ago, in the US? and still be accepted in society, i mean

Yes, he was victorious and so may we be. But did even he do what I believe Stephen did, what Jesus did? Before his natural death, did he overcome completely the world of his own flesh? Was the old man completely dead? Was the vision of God before him in his last moment of natural life? Where was the pain?

well, he states that he did overcome the world, and saw crowns in is future, so i gotta believe him. anyone that could write "rejoice in your sorrows, or when tribulation comes" has imo seen something that i can barely see. i'm still mostly faking it to make it there, myself, i mean this happens for me like once a year or something lol, this kind of joy.

 

[bbyrd009]

No, none of that. Straight from the heart.

ya, you were making a rhetorical Q, and i just revealed myself lol

 

[bbyrd009]

The confusing part for many is that they believe or at least say [if they don't really believe] they since the received the gift of the Holy Ghost they are always in Christ.

you get what you pay for, i guess

I believe more in a double minded way for most believers

imo that would be an improvement over the mindset of most believers :)

i mean you gotta embrace that you are a hypocrite, otherwise you are in denial that you are a hypocrite, seems to me.

now i have seen "altar conversions," too...like, one, i guess. maybe two. i didn't track them to see if it stuck or whatever; my impression was that these were really evil people who just saw the light, and had so much past sin that they were more able to appreciate/embrace forgiveness, maybe? Both cases were like along the lines of murderers or rapists, like that

 

[bbyrd009]

Some good posts there! Amen. :)

BTW bbyrd...'absent from the body, present with the Lord'
Should be our daily experience don't you think?
You have once or twice mentioned the cave and the quiet silence...
Is that not- "absent from the body...and very present with the Lord?"
This is our victory... when we can actually live there...stay there...as it say of Joshua.. " He departed not from the tabernacle"
We too can 'depart not'...
The misery comes when we fail to 'live there'.

nice, ya, imo the misery is likely expecting one's church to be this experience, when it cannot be. Many serving in a church might surely be there, but these are different from those who come to find, who are not interested in becoming a servant, i guess? churches are perfect, just like they are, i guess; are you going to get, or to give, iow. Is there a v about the sacrifice of going to church? i think there is. Obviously this is not describing someone going to congregation to serve themselves, i guess. i go to church now to help, and i usually cringe at the sermon lol.

Had a chat with pastor about that, and he told me he didn't believe what he was preaching either, that is just what they needed to hear right then? Asked him if he thought the Book was the Word, and he didn't even flinch lol, he just pointed out what would happen if he preached that to ppl who still needed law, who do not know the law yet. Blew my mind.

God comes to us wherever we are at, i guess

 

[Helen]

Had a chat with pastor about that, and he told me he didn't believe what he was preaching either, that is just what they needed to hear right then? Asked him if he thought the Book was the Word, and he didn't even flinch lol, he just pointed out what would happen if he preached that to ppl who still needed law, who do not know the law yet. Blew my mind.

Agree...our old very first Pastor said the same thing...his phrase was- " my old staunch membership wouldn't like it, so I don't say anything to upset them." ( bought and paid for too scared to lose the congregation membership and the funds) So many are 'bought and paid for'....yet have good hearts but far from perfect. Fear is a hard taskmaster.

This old guy had no problem when Dave and I told him that we were leaving to start a Free Church...he actually laid hands on us and prayed over us. And told us that he hoped that we would be braver and more faithful to truth than he had been. We kept in constant touch with him until he died.
He even came to a few of our meetings..( secretly of course...he was a tongue-speaker...but no one knew it, but us...he kept it from his members disapproval) bless his heart.

 

[bbyrd009]

Agree...our old very first Pastor said the same thing...his phrase was- " my old staunch membership wouldn't like it, so I don't say anything to upset them." ( bought and paid for too scared to lose the congregation membership and the funds) So many are 'bought and paid for'....yet have good hearts but far from perfect. Fear is a hard taskmaster.

imo a lot of pastors are ahead of their flocks in this way, and would likely love to preach the truth, if only they could

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Amadeus said: The "new man" killing the "old man" until... until he does not rise ever again. When is that?

bbyrd009 said: ya, when is that? are we talking individually, or corporately?

Individually, for anyone who is to be part of the corporate body of Jesus, must be a properly fitting part. If one tries to enter in improperly will he not be cast out into outer darkness?

When is that? For you or for me, if we are to be a part, it would be of course before they start thrown natural dirt over our faces. At one moment or one hour or one year or... whatever period of time we overcome our world as Jesus overcame his world. When is probably not up to God, but up to you and up to me. Did not Jesus provide everything that is needed already? Again, He did not come for nothing.

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Amadeus said: Even so...
"And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:56-29

bbyrd009 said: see how far we have come? i can plainly state that i have heard the Word now--ok, maybe only like twice, my whole life, really clearly; still remember both times even--and i don't have to worry about getting literally stoned, at least.
i don't have to pretend i am religious anymore, or share beliefs that i do not hold; who could say that even 200 years ago, in the US? and still be accepted in society, i mean

Only twice you have heard the Word? Likely that is the number of times it was clear to you that that is what it was. Lots of times perhaps we are hearing but we do not recognize what it is we are receiving at the moment. Then later when we are available and God has a need, He speaks His Word through us, a Word that we did not know was there.

So far they are not literally stoning us, but in a sense some are and they would do it to your or to me or to whoever for the same reasons that they did it to Stephen. People are almost too quick to say it cannot happen here, but usually they are looking at the Muslims as the stone throwers. I doubt that the Muslims are to be, [or even already are], our worst enemies among men.

Our worst enemy is inside of ourselves [me for me, you for you, and so forth]. But after him, we might look to some of our church going acquaintances and even those who may meet with us at times in the same physical building.

People like their own denominations, I guess. They feel perhaps safe, but who is it that they are safe from?