Co- Redemptrix

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
obviously a negative cannot be proven, and i have asked you twice, nicely, to pls omit me from any reflections that did not include a quote of your belief, BoL
This has nothing to do with "proving a negative".
YOU made a statement Christ - and I asked you to provide the Scriptural proof for it:
"If there was a single sinless person before Christ, we don't need Christ."

If you can't prove your statement - then maybe you shouldn't make these kinds of statements . . .
 

twinc

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2011
1,593
265
83
93
Faith
Country
United Kingdom
Your double-talk is well noted for these last several pages.
According to your inane logic, Mary gave birth to God - bur she didn't because although Jesus is God, He is NOT God when it comes to Mary.

Good luck
with that heretical line of thinking . . .

it seems many are stuck with how can this be and cannot like Mary accept and allow with a 'let it be' according to your word imho - twinc
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
it seems many are stuck with how can this be and cannot like Mary accept and allow with a 'let it be' according to your word imho - twinc
Yup.
In their anti-Catholic zeal, they have actually become "Mary-Phobic".
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Or, just don't happen to agree. :)
It's not even a matter of simple "disagreement". It'a a complete and total abdication of logic.

If you are going to profess that Jesus is God - and Mary is His Mother - then you have to some to the conclusion that she gave birth to God.
If you "disagree" that she did - then you ALSO must "disagree" that Jesus is God - and that heresy is another kettle of fish . . .
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
It's not even a matter of simple "disagreement". It'a a complete and total abdication of logic.

If you are going to profess that Jesus is God - and Mary is His Mother - then you have to some to the conclusion that she gave birth to God.
If you "disagree" that she did - then you ALSO must "disagree" that Jesus is God - and that heresy is another kettle of fish . . .

Well, when you say it like that..
But I happen to believe that Jesus was indeed God's seed..but also had the humanity of Mary while He walked here. To me, He had to have the potential to sin, as she did, as we all do....the GREAT salvation hangs on the truth that Adam sinned and the Last Perfect Adam overcame sin....for us all.
To be truthful BOL, most of these kind of discussions I don't understand,
and I wouldn't even dare to say 'who has sinned'...not my business...
I do have to take on board @bbyrd009 argument that if Mary was perfect before birthing Jesus , then she must have been the only one ever!
Jesus came to take our punishment inherited through Adam....Jesus came to take that punishment for us all...including Mary.
If Mary could attain the perfection that no one ever had, not even John The Baptist..no one...they bbyrd009 has a good point...why on earth Did God send ( Come in ) Jesus!! ?

I have no idea...as I say, most of it goes over my head, too complicated for me to work out.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
If Mary could attain the perfection that no one ever had, not even John The Baptist..no one...they bbyrd009 has a good point...why on earth Did God send ( Come in ) Jesus!! ?
a child can grasp this, and it takes much ignorance of Scripture to hold this belief. Just shoot one of them v to BoL--like many, many ppl have already done, i just did back a page or so ago, myself--and watch what he does with it, and see

"all have sinned, and come short of God's glory."
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your double-talk is well noted for these last several pages.
According to your inane logic, Mary gave birth to God - bur she didn't because although Jesus is God, He is NOT God when it comes to Mary.

Good luck
with that heretical line of thinking . . .

No, Mary did not give birth to God. Mary gave birth to the God/Man, Jesus Christ.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, Mary did not give birth to God. Mary gave birth to the God/Man, Jesus Christ.

Stranger

No. Mary is the Mother of God not some guy possessed by God
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No. Mary is the Mother of God not some guy possessed by God

That is a lie. Mary is not the mother of God. God has no mother.

Did God exist before Mary? Did the Son exist before Mary?

Stranger
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is a lie. Mary is not the mother of God. God has no mother.

Did God exist before Mary? Did the Son exist before Mary?

Stranger

This is statement is blasphemy - a flat denial of the divinity of Christ. Is Jesus God? Is Mary his mother?
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is statement is blasphemy - a flat denial of the divinity of Christ. Is Jesus God? Is Mary his mother?

Why didn't you answer the questions. Did God exist before Mary? Did the Son exist before Mary?

As to your questions, yes, Jesus is Divine, the God/Man. The Son made flesh. Yes, Mary is the mother of the God/Man, Jesus Christ.

Now answer mine.

Stranger
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why didn't you answer the questions. Did God exist before Mary? Did the Son exist before Mary?

As to your questions, yes, Jesus is Divine, the God/Man. The Son made flesh. Yes, Mary is the mother of the God/Man, Jesus Christ.

Now answer mine.

Stranger

We’ve already had this discussion. You are under the delusion that Jesus is a new creation based on his birth. I have already supplied verses refuting your false belief - scroll back
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We’ve already had this discussion. You are under the delusion that Jesus is a new creation based on his birth. I have already supplied verses refuting your false belief - scroll back

You have supplied nothing. The Son as a Man is a new creation. Again, why don't you answer my questions. Did God exist before Mary? Did the Son exist before Mary?

Stranger
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have supplied nothing. The Son as a Man is a new creation. Again, why don't you answer my questions. Did God exist before Mary? Did the Son exist before Mary?

Stranger

How many times do you want me to answer your questions? This is your tired modus operandi, once again - making simplistic, false statements, demanding answers, and then, after dismissing all answers , continuing to demand answers that support your one track minded falsehoods.

I am not your scripture monkey, Strange. If you are really interested in anything more than your own belligerence, scroll back - if not, don’t.
 

pia

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2009
2,003
1,678
113
70
West Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
@"ByGrace" If Jesus had not been human and able to sin, His redemption could have never been 'legal'...As He was human and without sin, when He was 30 or so, God The Father gave Him the ability to do through the Holy Spirit.......He could have never become the last Adam, not the Son of Man on the throne next to God, if He had been only God...It's a silly argument from some, as surely they have enough sense to see, that if that was all God had to do, he would have done it much much sooner...
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@"ByGrace" If Jesus had not been human and able to sin, His redemption could have never been 'legal'...As He was human and without sin, when He was 30 or so, God The Father gave Him the ability to do through the Holy Spirit.......He could have never become the last Adam, not the Son of Man on the throne next to God, if He had been only God...It's a silly argument from some, as surely they have enough sense to see, that if that was all God had to do, he would have done it much much sooner...

Jesus was not human and transformed into God - this is called Adoptionism and it was reconized as a heresy in the early church. Christianity teaches that Jesus was born fully human and fully God
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

Richard_oti

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2008
1,170
739
113
So, when Galatians says:
Galatians 6:2
"Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

And Romans 7:25 says:
"...So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." (emphasis mine)

Doesn't Paul equate Christ with God?

O.K. I won't say more, partly because I'm not equipped to argue the point and partly because you've been through this type of discussion a thousand times!

I am not going to try and convince you. We are both mature and have our respective beliefs. There is no need for either of us to try to convince one another, nor is it likely that either of us would change. However to briefly answer you, since you took the time to write:

Galatians also states: For each man shall bear his own burden.

Is "burden" in v 2 and 5 physical, spiritual or both. Or is it to lift one another up, yet, we shall still bear our own burden(s).

Is there anything in haTorah that specifically states to bear one another's burdens? If not, then it is something that was taught through Christ, an example of "love", that goes beyond the mere "letter" of the law.

In Romans, Paul is speaking of haTorah, and serving that which was/is written. So no, I don't see Paul as quite having "equated" them.

For myself, and from my perspective I would ask: What or Whom was / is the Light of Creation. The very first of creation, spoken into being by the very "Word" of YHVH.

In the beginning was the "Word" ...

Of which, from my perspective, John loosely patterns the beginning of his Gospel after the "Beginning".

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

For myself, I believe Jesus was / is the first of all creation, the "Light", as he himself said, "I am the light of the world".

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. ... 27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. 28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.


For contrast:

Mark 1:24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are-the Holy One of God!"

Luke 4:34 "Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are-the Holy One of God!"


Which is confirmed:

John 6:69 We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God. [WH manuscript]
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen