The Olivet Discourse

[bbyrd009]

"that day" is always today, according to Scripture

(one of these things
just doesn't belooong)

 

[Stranger]

You're holding to Jewish tradition, not Christian doctrine with that.

What Paul later said in Eph.2 which proves he meant believing Gentiles have become part of the "commonwealth of Israel":

Eph 2:16-20
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
KJV

Both believing Israel and believing Gentile are to become ONE BODY in Christ Jesus. It's called His Church, or God's Church if you prefer, and Israel is the name upon all believers in it. In the future after Christ's return the unbelievers of Israel will no longer be called Israel.

No, it is Christian doctrine. You just don't agree with it. Nothing in (Eph. 2) says the Church has become part of Israel. They have become part of the household of God.

No, Israel is the name you and others are putting on the Church. To which I disagree.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

imo a literal pov there will not stand up to the Book much either, i guess

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

 

[Stranger]

That's the popular tradition, but what Paul showed about Abraham in Galatians 3 proves The Gospel Promise of Salvation existed first with Abraham, and Abraham believed, and it was accounted as righteousness. And by that all those of Faith have become the children of Abraham (spiritually of course).

Same thing in Romans 9 when Paul was teaching about believers on Jesus of the nations having become spiritual seed of Israel. That means God's concept of His Israel involves only believers on Him through His Son Jesus Christ, and no others. Like Paul also showed in Romans 11, if one born of the literal seed of Israel remains in unbelief, then they are "cut off", meaning they are no longer a part of God's Israel.

The reason for this is because the name Israel is the Salvation name, not just a geographical/national name. It is the new name which God gave to Jacob to represent the Salvation Promise inherited down from Abraham, the same Promise by Faith which Abraham first believed and that was passed to all peoples who believe on God's Promised Savior. If those born of Israel today who reject Jesus still do so after His return, they will no longer have any part in God's Israel, the only Israel that will exist in that world to come.

I'm not denying salvation existed in the Old Testament. Being a child of Abraham does not make the Church Israel.

In Romans 9 Paul is not teaching about Gentiles becoming the spiritual seed of Israel. He is showing how that being born of Abraham was not enough for the Israelite to be saved. For he must be as Isaac was, a child of promise.

In (Rom. 11:1-12) when Paul is speaking concerning Israel, he is speaking about Israel. In (Rom. 11:13-25) when he speaks concerning Gentiles, he is speaking concerning Gentiles.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

The scribes of Jabez per 1 Chron.2:55 were NOT... born of the seed of Israel.

They CALLED themselves Jews because the title of 'Jew' also was applied to foreigners who simply lived in the lands of Judea (per Jewish historian Josephus, 100 A.D.). That's the return from Babylon name, and it only applied to those of the "house of Judah" made up of 3 tribes of Israel (Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small number of remnants of the ten northern tribes that went south when Jeroboam setup the two calf idols).

Today, ANYONE can become a Jew. Sammy Davis, Jr. a black entertainer, became a Jew. But the original title came from the tribe Judah.

Because Israel had disobeyed God in destroying the specific nations of Canaan that He commanded Israel to totally destroyed, He allowed the remnants of Canaanites to dwell with Israel, and He said He would use them to try Israel, to see if His people would follow Him, or not (Judges 2 & 3). In Joshua's time, some of the Canaanites, out of fear, crept in among Israel parading as starved foreigners trekking from a far away land. Joshua made a pact with them to come in and live amongst Israel, before he found out they were Canaanites. So Joshua made them hewers of wood. Per 1 Kings 9, the Canaanites were still dwelling among the children of Israel. They became the Nethinims, and eventually some of them crept into the priest office (Ezra 2). And in later times they dwelt at the tower of Ophil in the city of David. By the time our Lord Jesus appeared in Jerusalem, those Canaanites had already crept into the scribe office and among the Pharisees.

Only when Jesus returns will those Canaanites who crept in be cast out...

Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

So the bloodline purity of Jews is a huge falsehood. They are probably one of the most mixed of different peoples than any other today.

Ezra 9:1-3
9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, "The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.

2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.

3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.
KJV

The priests in (Ez. 2:61-63) could not prove their genealogy. Therefore they were put out of the priesthood. That shows you that they needed to be of Israel. Later under Nehemiah the people would separate from the mixed multitude. (Neh. 13:3) Later Nehemiah cleansed the priesthood also. (Neh. 13:29-31)

Ezra was the beginning of the scribes in Israel. The scribes of Israel were Jews.

Stranger

 

[Davy]

Perhaps the attached PDF will answer some of the questions being asked concerning the Kenites and where they came from.

Moses' father-in-law was a Midianite, not a Kenite. The Kenite reference has to mean the land of the Kenites, not Moses' father-in-law who was descended from the Midianite priests.

 

[Davy]

I'm not denying salvation existed in the Old Testament. Being a child of Abraham does not make the Church Israel.

In Romans 9 Paul is not teaching about Gentiles becoming the spiritual seed of Israel. He is showing how that being born of Abraham was not enough for the Israelite to be saved. For he must be as Isaac was, a child of promise.

In (Rom. 11:1-12) when Paul is speaking concerning Israel, he is speaking about Israel. In (Rom. 11:13-25) when he speaks concerning Gentiles, he is speaking concerning Gentiles.

Stranger

Believing as Abraham on the Promise by Faith which God gave before the law does make those of Faith a spiritual child of Abraham, and that Promise is what Jacob's new name Israel was about, because it's a name for the overcomers in that Promise. It's essentially about God's Birthright blessings in which the Promise is contained that first was given Abraham. And like I said, it began with Abraham, then was transferred to his son Isaac, then to Isaac's son Jacob, and then the new name 'Israel' to represent it because Jacob was still called Jacob after that also, and then it was transferred to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh where it still is today.

 

[Davy]

The priests in (Ez. 2:61-63) could not prove their genealogy. Therefore they were put out of the priesthood. That shows you that they needed to be of Israel. Later under Nehemiah the people would separate from the mixed multitude. (Neh. 13:3) Later Nehemiah cleansed the priesthood also. (Neh. 13:29-31)

Ezra was the beginning of the scribes in Israel. The scribes of Israel were Jews.

Stranger

It started to rain when they all met and agreed to put away their children and wives born of the Canaanites. Per the last verse of Zechariah 14, we know they weren't all successful in that because even to the time of Jesus' second coming we are shown the Canaanite still in the house of The LORD.

After Christ's return:

Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

 

[Davy]

In Romans 9 Paul is not teaching about Gentiles becoming the spiritual seed of Israel. He is showing how that being born of Abraham was not enough for the Israelite to be saved. For he must be as Isaac was, a child of promise.

Well, you need to read again, this time without... Jewish traditions stuck in you mind:

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

The "children of the promise are counted for the seed", and that means those of Faith like faithful Abraham (Gal.3 again!). This means even those who claim to be Jews today are only 'counted' IF... they believe on the Promise by Faith like Abraham did, and that means the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In time those whom God blinded of the house of Judah will have their opportunity to believe on Jesus when He returns, for that is when all of them will know Jesus (Zech.12).

So that part of Romans 9 is especially about spiritual seed represented by those who believe on the Promise by Faith like Abraham believed. The latter part about Isaac is to show the transfer of the Promise like I showed.

In (Rom. 11:1-12) when Paul is speaking concerning Israel, he is speaking about Israel. In (Rom. 11:13-25) when he speaks concerning Gentiles, he is speaking concerning Gentiles.

Stranger

In Rom.11, Paul is speaking of different Israelite groups. The first one is the group of Israelites according to the election of grace, of which believers like Paul belonged to. The other Israelite group which is the Israel in part that God blinded are represented by the Jews of the house of Judah (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some remnants of the northern ten tribes who elected to join with Judah in the southern kingdom).

Paul speaking of Gentiles there, includes believers of the Gentiles graffed into the same Root as Israelite believers.

Rom 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
KJV

Thus Paul's meaning of Gentiles becoming part of the "commonwealth of Israel" in Eph.2 is meant exactly like he said, that believing Gentiles have become part of God's Israel. That means not... today's Jew's interpretation that they only represent Israel.

 

[Davy]

I well know most of you brethren are not taught enough Old Testament history to understand fully about the Promise by Faith Abraham believed having been transferred to all believers, regardless of nationality or birth.

But that Promise by Faith was part of what God's Word calls God's birthright blessings:

1 Chron 5:1-2
5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)
KJV

This "birthright" was the birthright to the eldest son from their father Jacob. It's the same birthright Abraham handed down to Isaac. You can follow it by study of just what blessings God promised to Abraham, and it included the Promise by Faith (Gal.3).

Here in 1 Chron.5, we are shown the birthright having continued to Jacob, then Jacob's son Joseph, and then finally to Joseph's two sons, which were Ephraim and Manasseh. Reuben, the eldest firstborn of Jacob, should have inherited it, but like it says, he defiled his father's bed (he slept with one of his father's concubines).

The birthright includes God's blessing of great national wealth (great national resources), ruling the gates of thy enemies (great military power), a great number of seed as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, plenty of corn and wine (best lands), and of course caretaker of the Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ. You will find these blessings passed down from Abraham to Isaac, Isaac to Jacob, then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons.

Joseph was separate from his brethren and exalted in Egypt, becoming second ruler in all the land. God blessed him in his separateness which represent the Birthright having been upon Joseph, even while in Egypt. That same working was applied to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. Because of what Solomon did, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms and He gave ten tribes to Jeroboam, one of the tribe of Ephraim and made Jeroboam king of Israel over the northern ten tribes (1 Kings 11 forward). The tribe of Ephraim became the head tribe over the kingdom of Israel, also called the house of Israel in God's Word. The prophecy to Ephraim in Gen.48 was that his seed would become "a multitude of nations". Recall the Birthright and that it included the Promise by Faith. That continued with Ephraim's seed in that "multitude of nations" fulfillment, as it applies to the western Christian nations, because that is where the Promise especially rested with the Blessings joined with it, the blessings of the best resources, strongest military power, a seed as many as the stars and sands, representing believers on Jesus Christ, the Church, and thus the children of Abraham by Faith.

So is the little nation state over in the middleast called... Israel, God's true Israel? Yes, but so also are the Christian western nations that have dwelt in God's Birthright, especially in the Promise by Faith. And this other Israel in the west, under Jesus Christ, which will be the one to inherit the lands of Israel in the middleast with the unbelievers cast out.

 

[Stranger]

Believing as Abraham on the Promise by Faith which God gave before the law does make those of Faith a spiritual child of Abraham, and that Promise is what Jacob's new name Israel was about, because it's a name for the overcomers in that Promise. It's essentially about God's Birthright blessings in which the Promise is contained that first was given Abraham. And like I said, it began with Abraham, then was transferred to his son Isaac, then to Isaac's son Jacob, and then the new name 'Israel' to represent it because Jacob was still called Jacob after that also, and then it was transferred to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh where it still is today.

The promise was to Abraham, but not to all who were of Abraham. For in Isaac shall the seed be called. He is a child of promise from God and one who exercises the faith of Abraham. Though Jacob's name was changed to Israel doesn't mean all those of Israel are of Isaac. And in Isaac shall the seed be called. So you have those who are in Israel who are children of promise. And you have those who are in the Church who are children of promise.

Stranger

 

[Davy]

The promise was to Abraham, but not to all who were of Abraham. For in Isaac shall the seed be called. He is a child of promise from God and one who exercises the faith of Abraham.

Isn't that what I said, that the Promise was tranferred to Isaac? and that the Promise by Faith is to all who believe? Either you believe Galatians 3 about Abraham, or you don't.

Though Jacob's name was changed to Israel doesn't mean all those of Israel are of Isaac. And in Isaac shall the seed be called. So you have those who are in Israel who are children of promise. And you have those who are in the Church who are children of promise.

Stranger

Doesn't matter what you... want to call God's birthright blessings first given Abraham, but that's what it's about. And once again, Paul in Rom.9 said "the children of promise are COUNTED for the seed", that Promise being the Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ!

The Promise by Faith = the Gospel of Jesus Christ unto Salvation

Somehow I know, you intend to escape the meaning of that "promise", wanting to point it to belonging only to a certain geneaology, like in Isaac. But Paul is only pointing out the fact that the Birthright blessings from God (which contained the Promise by Faith) were passed on to Isaac (and thus on to Jacob, and then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons where it still is today).

The reason why 'in Isaac' was important is because it is to distinguish which route God's Birthright blessings took, because Ishmael was actually the firstborn child of Abraham, but not of Sarah to which God had first promised a child to Abraham. And per many of the Arab clerics today, this is still the major point of contention they have with the Jews, claiming the Jews stole their birthright.

And this still is one of the major points of contention the orthodox Jews have with Christians; it's because God's Birthright blessings went with the western Christian nations while the lands of Israel remained pretty much barren and without a king for centuries. It still today does not measure up to what all God's Birthright blessings contain.

 

[Stranger]

Well, you need to read again, this time without... Jewish traditions stuck in you mind:

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

The "children of the promise are counted for the seed", and that means those of Faith like faithful Abraham (Gal.3 again!). This means even those who claim to be Jews today are only 'counted' IF... they believe on the Promise by Faith like Abraham did, and that means the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In time those whom God blinded of the house of Judah will have their opportunity to believe on Jesus when He returns, for that is when all of them will know Jesus (Zech.12).

So that part of Romans 9 is especially about spiritual seed represented by those who believe on the Promise by Faith like Abraham believed. The latter part about Isaac is to show the transfer of the Promise like I showed.






In Rom.11, Paul is speaking of different Israelite groups. The first one is the group of Israelites according to the election of grace, of which believers like Paul belonged to. The other Israelite group which is the Israel in part that God blinded are represented by the Jews of the house of Judah (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some remnants of the northern ten tribes who elected to join with Judah in the southern kingdom).

Paul speaking of Gentiles there, includes believers of the Gentiles graffed into the same Root as Israelite believers.

Rom 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
KJV

Thus Paul's meaning of Gentiles becoming part of the "commonwealth of Israel" in Eph.2 is meant exactly like he said, that believing Gentiles have become part of God's Israel. That means not... today's Jew's interpretation that they only represent Israel.

Being a child of promise is to be called as Isaac was. In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Rom. 9:7) Isaac's birth was a miraculous birth. He was a child of promise from God. This speaks to the first movement of salvation being from God. The promise of God comes first before any faith. Because one is a child of promise, they will exercise the faith of Abraham. It is only the children of promise that are counted for the seed. You have children of promise in Israel and in the Church.

Yes, you have in Israel both the children of promise and those who are children of the flesh. That doesn't make the saved Gentiles Israel.

Just because the Gentiles are grafted in and share the same root under the Abrahamic covenant doesn't make the Church Israel.

Stranger

 

[Davy]

Being a child of promise is to be called as Isaac was. In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Rom. 9:7) Isaac's birth was a miraculous birth. He was a child of promise from God. This speaks to the first movement of salvation being from God. The promise of God comes first before any faith. Because one is a child of promise, they will exercise the faith of Abraham. It is only the children of promise that are counted for the seed. You have children of promise in Israel and in the Church.

Yes, you have in Israel both the children of promise and those who are children of the flesh. That doesn't make the saved Gentiles Israel.

Just because the Gentiles are grafted in and share the same root under the Abrahamic covenant doesn't make the Church Israel.

Stranger

Once again, you are going against what Paul said in Galatians 3 about the 'promise' to Abraham and that it represents the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The children of promise in Isaac is about the transfer of God's promise from Abraham to Isaac. That's all. The Promise itself, is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ which Paul showed Abraham believed by Faith first, and because of that all those of Faith on that Promise, have become the children of Abraham, meaning spiritual children.

Gal 3:7-9
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV


Proof that Paul was speaking also of God's Birthright blessings to Abraham, of which the Promise by Faith was included:

Gal 3:16-18
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

That is about the transfer of God's Birthright blessings ("the promises"), the Promise by Faith included, first given Abraham, as that involved the Gospel as Paul also points to our Lord Jesus Christ there.


17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The covenant Paul is speaking of is the Salvation Promise first given Abraham. It was given 430 years before the law was given through Moses. Thus the law, which came later, cannot "disannul" the Promise that was given first.


18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV

The idea of inheritance given to Abraham was a great many seed, as many as the stars and sands, and all the lands as fars as he could see, which were later specifically defined. All that involves God's Birthright. And it includes great national wealth, great military power, plenty of corn and wine, and of course caretaker of the Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ unto eternal Salvation.


Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

There Paul defines what "promise" he is speaking of, the "promise by faith of Jesus Christ".

 

[Stranger]

Once again, you are going against what Paul said in Galatians 3 about the 'promise' to Abraham and that it represents the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The children of promise in Isaac is about the transfer of God's promise from Abraham to Isaac. That's all. The Promise itself, is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ which Paul showed Abraham believed by Faith first, and because of that all those of Faith on that Promise, have become the children of Abraham, meaning spiritual children.

Gal 3:7-9
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV


Proof that Paul was speaking also of God's Birthright blessings to Abraham, of which the Promise by Faith was included:

Gal 3:16-18
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

That is about the transfer of God's Birthright blessings ("the promises"), the Promise by Faith included, first given Abraham, as that involved the Gospel as Paul also points to our Lord Jesus Christ there.


17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The covenant Paul is speaking of is the Salvation Promise first given Abraham. It was given 430 years before the law was given through Moses. Thus the law, which came later, cannot "disannul" the Promise that was given first.


18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV

The idea of inheritance given to Abraham was a great many seed, as many as the stars and sands, and all the lands as fars as he could see, which were later specifically defined. All that involves God's Birthright. And it includes great national wealth, great military power, plenty of corn and wine, and of course caretaker of the Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ unto eternal Salvation.


Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

There Paul defines what "promise" he is speaking of, the "promise by faith of Jesus Christ".

No, I am not going against Paul in (Gal. 3). (Rom.9:1-13) is speaking to God's elect. They are the persons who will benefit from these promises. It is not the message of the Gospel but the persons he is speaking of. (9:6-7) "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but,In Isaac shall thy seed by called."

Then contrast is made between the children of the flesh and the children of promise. (Rom. 9:8) "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. " Then, what is that promise? (Rom.9:9) "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." Isaac was a promised son miraculously given to Abraham and Sara. And God even named Isaac before He gave him. (Gen. 17:19) "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac:..." Isaac did not here believe on the promise, he was the promised son. Then later the covenant would be established with him. (Gen. 17:19) "...and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him."

This is not in disagreement with (Gal. 3). Paul is emphasizing there the aspect of faith and not law to come into these promises of God. And even later in (Gal. 4:22-23) he says, "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. " And we just saw in (Gen. 17:19) what that promise was.

Then further down Paul goes on to say, (Gal.4:28) "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." With Isaac we have the luxury to read and know that God promised him to Abraham, by name. A miraculous birth. He was from God. With you and I today, we first come into this salvation by faith receiving the promises and then learn as Paul said, "Now we brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Now, that the child of promise is from God first is clearly shown in (Rom.10-13) where Paul doesn't miss a beat after declaring in (9:9) the promise to Sara of Isaac to come. He says in (9:10-13) concerning the sons of Isaac, "...For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

In other words, before they were born, God elected. God knew them. One Jacob was a child of promise. One Esau was a child of the flesh.



That Abraham was promised he would have a seed, yes. That that promise would follow through Isaac, yes. That we come into this salvation and the promises by faith, yes. But, we do so because just like Isaac, we are the children of promise from God first.


Stranger

 

[Jay Ross]

Moses' father-in-law was a Midianite, not a Kenite. The Kenite reference has to mean the land of the Kenites, not Moses' father-in-law who was descended from the Midianite priests.

As usual you are only seeing what you want to see and you missed the passages which tell us: -

Judges 1:16: – 16 Now the children of the Kenite, Moses' father-in-law, went up from the City of Palms with the children of Judah into the Wilderness of Judah, which lies in the South near Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.

Judges 4:11: – 11 Now Heber the Kenite, of the children of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses, had separated himself from the Kenites and pitched his tent near the terebinth tree at Zaanaim, which is beside Kedesh.

In considering Judges 4:11 a better paraphrase of this verse would be: -

Judges 4:11: – 11 Now Heber the Kenite, of the children of the cherished father-in-law of Moses, had separated himself from the Kenites and pitched his tent near the terebinth tree at Zaanaim, which is beside Kedesh.

Now in Numbers 10:29, Hobab, lə·ḥō·ḇāḇ, לְ֠חֹבָב, was the name of a son of Reuel, who was also called Jethro, where H:2246 has the meaning of "cherished." However, in Judges 4:11, hobab, ḥō·ḇāḇ, חֹבָ֖ב, is a term of endearment i.e. to cherish/ cherished.

This then means that the Kenites are the descendants of Jethro, Moses father-in-law.

Yes, Davy, I agree with you that in Genesis 15:19 it is speaking of a "country area" that will be identified as belonging to the Kenite nation, which did not come into being until the time of the exodus of the Israelite from Egypt as they are the descendant children of Jethro, Moses' father-in-law. Genesis 15:18-21 does not indicate

when God will give the land, mentioned in this passage, to them. It will probably occur some time after the Israelite nation has entered the Land of Canaan and they need reassurance that God's inheritance for them is the whole earth as promised earlier in Genesis 15. The Genesis 15:18-21 prophecy may have been fulfilled during the time of Solomon, some 1,000 plus years after this promise was given. It is my understanding that Genesis 15:18-21 is a conformation that the promised inheritance to be given to Abraham and his descendants is the whole earth.

But this is taking the discussion away from the OP, but it is relevant in that you do not check out your "facts" before you publish them in a post like your quoted post above.​

 

[Davy]

As usual you are only seeing what you want to see and you missed the passages which tell us: -

Judges 1:16: – 16 Now the children of the Kenite, Moses' father-in-law, went up from the City of Palms with the children of Judah into the Wilderness of Judah, which lies in the South near Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.

Judges 4:11: – 11 Now Heber the Kenite, of the children of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses, had separated himself from the Kenites and pitched his tent near the terebinth tree at Zaanaim, which is beside Kedesh.

In considering Judges 4:11 a better paraphrase of this verse would be: -

Judges 4:11: – 11 Now Heber the Kenite, of the children of the cherished father-in-law of Moses, had separated himself from the Kenites and pitched his tent near the terebinth tree at Zaanaim, which is beside Kedesh.

Now in Numbers 10:29, Hobab, lə·ḥō·ḇāḇ, לְ֠חֹבָב, was the name of a son of Reuel, who was also called Jethro, where H:2246 has the meaning of "cherished." However, in Judges 4:11, hobab, ḥō·ḇāḇ, חֹבָ֖ב, is a term of endearment i.e. to cherish/ cherished.

This then means that the Kenites are the descendants of Jethro, Moses father-in-law.

Yes, Davy, I agree with you that in Genesis 15:19 it is speaking of a "country area" that will be identified as belonging to the Kenite nation, which did not come into being until the time of the exodus of the Israelite from Egypt as they are the descendant children of Jethro, Moses' father-in-law. Genesis 15:18-21 does not indicate

when God will give the land, mentioned in this passage, to them. It will probably occur some time after the Israelite nation has entered the Land of Canaan and they need reassurance that God's inheritance for them is the whole earth as promised earlier in Genesis 15. The Genesis 15:18-21 prophecy may have been fulfilled during the time of Solomon, some 1,000 plus years after this promise was given. It is my understanding that Genesis 15:18-21 is a conformation that the promised inheritance to be given to Abraham and his descendants is the whole earth.

But this is taking the discussion away from the OP, but it is relevant in that you do not check out your "facts" before you publish them in a post like your quoted post above.​

Can't be a Midianite priest and a Kenite at the same time. He lived among the Kenites, which the Kenites were spread through the lands of Canaan, but he separated from them. Midian was a son of Abraham.

Num 10:29
29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Yes, Davy, I agree with you that in Genesis 15:19 it is speaking of a "country area" that will be identified as belonging to the Kenite nation, which did not come into being until the time of the exodus of the Israelite from Egypt as they are the descendant children of Jethro, Moses' father-in-law. Genesis 15:18-21 does not indicate

when God will give the land, mentioned in this passage, to them. It will probably occur some time after the Israelite nation has entered the Land of Canaan and they need reassurance that God's inheritance for them is the whole earth as promised earlier in Genesis 15. The Genesis 15:18-21 prophecy may have been fulfilled during the time of Solomon, some 1,000 plus years after this promise was given. It is my understanding that Genesis 15:18-21 is a conformation that the promised inheritance to be given to Abraham and his descendants is the whole earth.
​

That's definitely something that needs clearing up, i.e., that which I underlined.

In this section of Gen.15, God is defining the peoples already... living in the lands of Canaan, and the borders, and He includes the peoples known as Kenites:

Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, 'Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.'
KJV

The Rephaims were the giants.

Later, God would command Israel to destroy specific nations among those lands:


Deut 7:1
7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
KJV

Deut 20:16-18
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
KJV

Nice theory though, to try create a non-Canaanite home for the Kenites though. The reason God didn't include them to be destroyed with those other nations in the land was because of how the Kenites treated Israel at another time:

1 Sam 15:6
6 And Saul said unto the Kenites, 'Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt.' So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
KJV

That one of Saul, should have convinced you that the Kenites were a completely different peoples than the children of Israel. How can it show the Kenites showed kindness to the children of Israel, and Saul not telling them to join in with him, if those Kenites were of Israel? They were not of Israel, as I have already clearly shown from God's Holy Writ.

 

[Davy]

No, I am not going against Paul in (Gal. 3). (Rom.9:1-13) is speaking to God's elect. They are the persons who will benefit from these promises. It is not the message of the Gospel but the persons he is speaking of. (9:6-7) "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but,In Isaac shall thy seed by called."

Then contrast is made between the children of the flesh and the children of promise. (Rom. 9:8) "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. " Then, what is that promise? (Rom.9:9) "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." Isaac was a promised son miraculously given to Abraham and Sara. And God even named Isaac before He gave him. (Gen. 17:19) "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac:..." Isaac did not here believe on the promise, he was the promised son. Then later the covenant would be established with him. (Gen. 17:19) "...and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him."

This is not in disagreement with (Gal. 3). Paul is emphasizing there the aspect of faith and not law to come into these promises of God. And even later in (Gal. 4:22-23) he says, "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. " And we just saw in (Gen. 17:19) what that promise was.

Then further down Paul goes on to say, (Gal.4:28) "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." With Isaac we have the luxury to read and know that God promised him to Abraham, by name. A miraculous birth. He was from God. With you and I today, we first come into this salvation by faith receiving the promises and then learn as Paul said, "Now we brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Now, that the child of promise is from God first is clearly shown in (Rom.10-13) where Paul doesn't miss a beat after declaring in (9:9) the promise to Sara of Isaac to come. He says in (9:10-13) concerning the sons of Isaac, "...For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

In other words, before they were born, God elected. God knew them. One Jacob was a child of promise. One Esau was a child of the flesh.

That Abraham was promised he would have a seed, yes. That that promise would follow through Isaac, yes. That we come into this salvation and the promises by faith, yes. But, we do so because just like Isaac, we are the children of promise from God first.

Stranger

I'm afraid you are going around in circles with some supposed miraculous birth of Isaac, because you're trying to escape what Paul showed in Galatians 3 about Abraham's faith being the same faith on Jesus Christ that Gentiles also have believed, and thus God's Israel does include believing Gentiles counted for the seed:

Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

Paul is emphatic, the children of the flesh are NOT the children of God. There is no mention of either Israelite or Gentile in that statement. One would have to add it, which you have done.

The math boils down to this:

1. the children of the promise = any and all who believe on Jesus Christ, which is the promise to Abraham, and Abraham believed.

2. all believers are God's Israel, counted for the seed of the promise.

 

[Stranger]

I'm afraid you are going around in circles with some supposed miraculous birth of Isaac, because you're trying to escape what Paul showed in Galatians 3 about Abraham's faith being the same faith on Jesus Christ that Gentiles also have believed, and thus God's Israel does include believing Gentiles counted for the seed:

Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

Paul is emphatic, the children of the flesh are NOT the children of God. There is no mention of either Israelite or Gentile in that statement. One would have to add it, which you have done.

The math boils down to this:

1. the children of the promise = any and all who believe on Jesus Christ, which is the promise to Abraham, and Abraham believed.

2. all believers are God's Israel, counted for the seed of the promise.

Some supposed miraculous birth of Isaac?

Well, (Rom. 9:8) is connected to (Rom 9:6-7). Context. And there the true Israelite is named. I have added nothing.

I thought you said no mention of Israelite was in those verses. Yet now you declare all believers are Israelites.

All believers are children of promise. Some are Israelites, some are not.

Stranger