An Unknown Tongue

[VictoryinJesus]

that our perspectives here are not as important as whether a concept bears fruit or not, that is what will decide i guess

Wise words bbyrd009.

 

[Frank Lee]

Spiritual things are a wonderment. The Holy Spirit can show you something in a moment of time - the complete story, but it takes many words to describe what He's shown.

An interpretation. On some things He speaks plainer than others. On some occasions He just says it outright. On others He He speaks after we have prayed in the spirit.

If you are His sheep you do know His voice. There are those that question that He speaks.

Those that mock those that believe. How can they be believers when they believe nothing about Him.? What do they believe when they deny everything?

 

[Stranger]

In the KJV of 1 Corinthians 14, the word "unknown" was added by the translators. It is not in the Greek New Testament texts.

But that phrase, "unknown tongue", those who speak a gibberish speech use that added adjective "unknown" to support their idea that gibberish no one can understand is the real cloven tongue of Pentencost when it is not.

In 1 Cor.12 thru 14, Apostle Paul is speaking of known languages of the world, not a gibberish unknown tongue. In Acts 2, they weren't speaking gibberish either. They were speaking normally, but it went out by The Holy Spirit to the peoples in their own dialects of their languages. In other words, God was the translator to each person when the Apostles spoke on Pentecost.

Just because all those who were believers heard and understood what was said, does not mean it was 'said' in their known language. But they did hear in their own tongue. (2:8)

You say they were not speaking gibberish, but , there were those there who did think that. (Acts 2:13,15) "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine." Drunkenness slurs your speech. So, there were some there who were of God, (2:5). But there were some who were not. (2:13) Those of God spake and heard miraculously the words of God through tongues. The others, not of God, couldn't understand anything, and just figured they were all drunk.

Concerning the 'unknown tongue' of (1 Cor. 14), the word 'unknown' I believe is correctly placed there for clarification as the context shows that it was unknown to all others. (1 Cor. 14:2) "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. " The tongue spoken here is to God, not to men. And, no other man will understand it. If no other man knows it then it must not be a known language.

In (1 Cor. 13:1) Paul makes distinction between the tongues of men and angels. Such a distinction speaks to unknown tongues as far as men being able to understand them. That tongues can involve languages of men, yes. (1 Co. 14:21) "With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people;...." But there are unknown tongues as well from the Spirit of God.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

But there are unknown tongues as well from the Spirit of God.

only you cannot Quote that, and that may be covering up what is really "unknown" in this concept imo

 

[Helen]

you interpret one thing, but the next guy will interpret something else anyway i guess
interpretations cease when the fruit manifests

Mark, I am talking about mature Christians functioning as the body of Christ should.
So no, " the next guy" ( unless he also has the gift of interpretation...)..knows nothing, and gets nothing in the Spirit from the tongue being uttered.
That is why Paul said..."if no interpreter of tongues is there, let him be silent."
It is impossible for the one listening, who hasn't the gift of interpreting, to "get an interpretation".

 

[Helen]

@bbyrd009
But, I see that I have done what I didn't want to do...ie, that is to 'get into' this thread!!

 

[amadeus]

Like I already showed, there is no such thing as an 'unknown' tongue. The word "unknown" in the KJV is not in the Greek NT manuscripts. It was added by the KJV translators.

God deals with languages, not unknown tongues.

My, my friend you showed it to yourself and to any who already agreed with you or were ready to agree with you, but the only One who really counts is God.

You are saying in effect that you know more than all of us who have experience this gift of God which you in your fleshly mind have found NOT to be a gift of God. The Truth of God is NOT to be found by the scientific method or according to your own reasoning no matter how carefully you proceed, unless, you begin every day as if you had nothing and then start by simply believing, listening to, and following God. Is it by faith that you live for God or according to what you carnal mind is able to conclude? You have seen it in your studies and therefore it definitely, according you does not exist or is not a part of God's plan. Have you seen all of God's plan? Do you understand everything perfectly that God has established and created?

"Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further." Job 40:1-5

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29

All of us were blind until and if we receive vision. But that vision is "as through a glass darkly" until we reach the "face to face" if we ever do. Pray that God increase your ability to see:

"And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:22-25

How many times will Jesus need to touch the eyes of each of us before attain the "face to face" or see "every man clearly"?


The KJV translators did NOT add the gift that is mine as is the gift of tongues that belongs to others to whom God has given it. The tongues will end like so many things will end when God has finished using them, but the right time for that is His, not yours and not mine.

 

[bbyrd009]

It is impossible for the one listening, who hasn't the gift of interpreting, to "get an interpretation".

so you say, but "tongue" must first be made into "unknown tongue" for this, see

 

[amadeus]

i've heard "groanings that can't be uttered" as justification there, but that fails at the uttering, seems to me
we all try to help Scripture be a little more "accurate," huh

Perhaps many do as you say, "try to help scripture", but should it be "we all" on the one side with no one even partly on God's side? Men do too often want to paint a black and white picture, but most real life [material or temporal or physical life] is NOT black and white but somewhere in between although likely leaning one way or the other; nor are they completely hot or completely cold. Not all Catholics have no hope, and neither do all Protestants, nor all Muslims, nor all Buddhists, etc. God does NOT want anyone to stay on the fence with one foot on the inside and one foot on the outside, and so we believe/know He will help them to approach a better place as needed if their heart is really hungry and thirsty for His righteousness. He really does not want to have to spit anyone out of His mouth.

I know you understand what I am saying. Understand also that the same thing can and does apply at times to "tongue talkers". The end of all of this is coming for each one of us. If any one of us attains to the "face to face" at the point that one will have no need of further need nor of tongues [known or unknown]... How many who you or I know personally have already attained to the "face to face"?

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor 13:8-10

If a person really is in error in something he believes and practices, BUT he really is hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God, will God not still fill him?

 

[amadeus]

you interpret one thing, but the next guy will interpret something else anyway i guess
interpretations cease when the fruit manifests

The interpretations cease when there is no further need because every potential hearer already understands what God wants him to understand. Who but God already knows now what each potential hearer understands?

 

[bbyrd009]

est'd church is not the "evil" it is made out to be either; they serve God too

 

[amadeus]

so you say, but "tongue" must first be made into "unknown tongue" for this, see

The tongues and the unknown tongues are the parables of Jesus to those who heard the words formed and spoken by means of his physical vocal cords. All of those in the crown may have heard those words, but not all of them had the necessary "ears to hear" so that they could understand the message of God in them:


"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:10-16

 

[amadeus]

God sees your intent, and nowhere in Scripture are you called to justify your beliefs to anyone, misinterpreted vv about being prepared to give an accounting notwithstanding imo. Even if it might seem to imply that at first (there is no "accounting" required in this context)

Of course strictly according to the scriptures alone you may be right, but if God is really speaking to the particular heart of one person or of several persons to open his or their mouth to speak, who should remain silent?

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"... a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

Even Jesus who seemingly knew so many answers still at times remained silent:

"Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly." Matt 27:13-14

Still at other times he opened his mouth so that even his apparent enemies said of Him:

"The officers answered, Never man spake like this man." John 7:46

Does not God speak to people still today? To His sheep most certainly! Are we His sheep?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

For those on the fence about tongues being used as a prayer language , go to this thread below at the link about the truth of John 16:13 in His words.

What Is the Truth About the Holy Spirit in John 16:13 in All Bibles?

There is no way the Holy Spirit can speak for Himself in giving His own intercessions in a verbal prayer of any kind when according to the KJV of Romans 8:26-27, He cannot even utter His own groanings which is why Jesus, Whom searches our hearts ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ), is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit to give His unspeakable intercessions to the Father. Most modern Bibles has Romans 8:26-27 wrong and is a lie as exposed by John 16:13 in ALL Bibles.

God wants us to pray so that knowing what we had prayed for, we can give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for known answers to prayers.( John 14:13-14 & 1 Thessalonians 5:17-18 )

 

[amadeus]

est'd church is not the "evil" it is made out to be either; they serve God too

Of course they do and sometimes they serve Him as the right hand of God rather the left hand. It was as a Catholic in the Catholic Church that I first met God. What could be wrong with that?

 

[amadeus]

only you cannot Quote that, and that may be covering up what is really "unknown" in this concept imo

But this is part of the problem with looking only to the precise written words of scripture. Yes men added in the KJV the word "unknown" and others supposed shown in italics, but was God not also guiding the translating of the translators... even if they were NOT believers themselves? Drawing final irrevocable conclusions with regard to God and the things of God can get anyone, who is not already a complete overcomer as Jesus is and who is not seeing that final "face to face" about Paul writes, into trouble...

Nothing is unknown to God. If we are following Him and trusting Him and He knows that we need to know something many men would call unknown will He not give the unknown to us so that to us it is no longer unknown?

 

[amadeus]

For those on the fence about tongues being used as a prayer language , go to this thread below at the link about the truth of John 16:13 in His words.

What Is the Truth About the Holy Spirit in John 16:13 in All Bibles?

.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

God wants us to pray so that knowing what we had prayed for, we can give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for known answers to prayers.( John 14:13-14 & 1 Thessalonians 5:17-18 )

Yes, God would certainly want us to know what we were praying, but how many of us can handle all of those things now? The thought in this respect that comes to my minds when it is time for someone to die that we cannot bear to lose. If we were to pray for the person to live on in the flesh would or could it put us against God to pray in that manner? Everyone has a time to die in the flesh. Should we pray that no one else we really love should not every close their eyes in natural death. Does not the prayer of Jesus for himself tell us something about that?

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

The man Jesus did not want to go through the physical suffering and torment that was his cup... but he added that last phrase to his prayer. .. "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt". Even apparently good Christians may find if difficult to pray without reservation for the death of the loved one.

 

[Frank Lee]

It's amazingly predictable that those who know nothing about a spiritual matter such as prayer in tongues, present themselves as being experts.

The natural man yet ruling their lives. As brother Jude said... Having not the spirit...

Again and again espousing the teachings of the denominational doctrines that they've been taught as truth. Denying the Bible which confronts their traditions and fleshly natural man thinking with the truth of God.

If you stand against the word of God you won't stand long. My words are of none effect however, for those that choose their denominational doctrine over God's word never see themselves as doing so. But rather see themselves as straightening out those deceived souls that actually believe God still holds to His written word.

 

[amadeus]

It's amazingly predictable that those who know nothing about a spiritual matter such as prayer in tongues, present themselves as being experts.

The natural man yet ruling their lives. As brother Jude said... Having not the spirit...

Again and again espousing the teachings of the denominational doctrines that they've been taught as truth. Denying the Bible which confronts their traditions and fleshly natural man thinking with the truth of God.

If you stand against the word of God you won't stand long. My words are of none effect however, for those that choose their denominational doctrine over God's word never see themselves as doing so. But rather see themselves as straightening out those deceived souls that actually believe God still holds to His written word.

People have defined or have had someone define for them what it means to have the Spirit or to be led by the Spirit. Some of them are in error on this but it really would take God to change their minds and even He will not force a change. Only someone who comes to Him with a really open heart and a desire to receive the truth no matter what it is will be changed.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Yes, God would certainly want us to know what we were praying, but how many of us can handle all of those things now?

Is THAT your explanation for why the Holy Spirit is praying in tongues through the believers in making His intercessions known to God?

" If " it is, you haven't fully considered with Jesus Christ at that throne of grace the truth about the Holy Spirit in John 16:13 in how He will not speak His own words nor utter His own intercessions, but only speaks what He hears. That limits God's gift of tongues as being of other men's lips to speak unto the people as 1 Corinthians 14:21 prophesied its usage. To turn it around is confusion and thus proof that supernatural tongue is not His gift of tongues.