What are we really dealing with here?

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Phoneman777

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Therefore the 69 weeks of this prophecy reach to the time of his baptism and anointing, from which time, and not before, he was the Messiah, the Christ, The Anointed. Hence the 69 weeks, or 483 years, ended in the autumn of A.D. 29.

Not 29 A.D., but 27 A.D., for the following reasons:

Artaxerxes' first decree is far more comprehensive fulfillment of "restore and build Jerusalem" than the examples you have given in Nehemiah which pertain only to the construction of "walls". Included in the first decree are:
  • rebuilding the temple - resources provided for construction and sacrifices
  • magistrates and judges - the establishment of a municipal court system
  • institutions charged with teaching the "law of God" (and the king) - both religious AND secular
  • municipal law enforcement - to execute penalties for violations
Also, the prophecy said "the street shall be built again, even the wall in troublous times" which "troublous times" refers to the period following 457 B.C. during the time when Tobias and company were troubling the Jews, and not after the time when the king's word of proclamation went forth and no Tobias or anyone else would dare defy that word.
 
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Harvest 1874

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Not 29 A.D., but 27 A.D., for the following reasons:

Artaxerxes' first decree is far more comprehensive fulfillment of "restore and build Jerusalem" than the examples you have given in Nehemiah which pertain only to the construction of "walls". Included in the first decree are:
  • rebuilding the temple - resources provided for construction and sacrifices
  • magistrates and judges - the establishment of a municipal court system
  • institutions charged with teaching the "law of God" (and the king) - both religious AND secular
  • municipal law enforcement - to execute penalties for violations
Also, the prophecy said "the street shall be built again, even the wall in troublous times" which "troublous times" refers to the period following 457 B.C. during the time when Tobias and company were troubling the Jews, and not after the time when the king's word of proclamation went forth and no Tobias or anyone else would dare defy that word.

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks (69 weeks)…”

Sorry but we must insist on the date 454 B.C. as the 69 symbolic weeks (or 483 years) were to reach unto Messiah the Prince. If we started from 457 B.C. we would come up 3 years short or prior to our Lord’s baptism and anointing.

Our Lord’s ministry covered 3 ½ years, ending with his crucifixion, at the time of the Passover, in the spring of A.D. 33. In this he exactly fulfilled the prophecy concerning the remaining or last week (seven years) of promised favor, which says:

AFTER (“seven weeks and sixty-two weeks”), sixty-nine weeks shall Messiah be cut off [“be slain”, Douay translation] but not for himself, in the midst of the week [the remaining 70th] he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.”

Once again if we accept the date of 457 B.C. not only does that move the date of our Lord’s anointing up 3 years (from Autumn 29 A.D. to Autumn 26 A.D.), but likewise since his ministry only lasted 3 ½ years the time of his crucifixion must likewise be moved up from the spring of 33 A.D. to the spring of 30 A.D.

Sorry but this completely destroys the whole prophecy, especially seeing as the dates of our Lord’s birth, baptism and crucifixion are well established.
 

Naomi25

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yes, you have countries full of leaders in the world, i agree; but my kingdom is not of this world. Not to get all whatever on you.
but i'd be careful making declarations about whom you serve at least
maybe see the diff in Erets and Kosmou, ok
bc one of them is passing away

Okay...at this point I just have to laugh, because it has gotten so bizarre! I do think, bby, that you and I talk 2 different languages!

You see, I would say that "my Kingdom is not of this world" would mean...you know...it's not of this world. That's why Jesus said that no-one from here (his servants) were fighting to rescue him from the cross (Luke 18:36). The kingdom of God is both a heavenly kingdom, and a Kingdom that is present within us, Christians. When God restores heaven and Earth to how they should be, then God's Kingdom will be on Earth.

But as far as our conversation...God's Kingdom has nothing to do with Countries, Nations and Leaders. The bible tells us that the leaders are given to us by God, to help hold back lawlessness, and regardless of how crappy they are, we are to pray for them, and obey them (unless they are trying to get us to do something that expects us to go against God...God comes first, obviously).

ah, that is not the point; as i say, i even agree with you. But we call these beliefs for a reason, see. AT is a diff standard

Seriously? After all that, you're going to tell me you see agree with me?
And...I believe...that was EXACTLY the point. It has been the point all along. :rolleyes:
And yes...we believe in them because they are true. We'd be daft to believe in something not true. And...AT, is, as you say, something that does not change. But then, as your next post admits, the passage says things that will not change! So, o_O
no, but i am saying that that is not AT. No one disagrees with AT, bc they cannot

all bowling balls are spheres
See above.

which you can easily prove, yes; see, no one would disagree with you. If they happened to be a flat earther, the maxim could still be proven with a plastic bag. etc


well, the phrase can be searched, i didn't make it up i guess, someone beat me to it apparently, but that would be "as opposed to life, more abundantly," the way i am using it. The belief that a better life is waiting for you after literal death--the same thing ancient Chinese Emperors and Pharaohs believed, and i guess pretty much the whole rest of the world too

Yes, well, I did search for it, and all I came up with was the phrase "life more abundantly", which to me meant the opposite.
But hang on...are you saying that you DON'T believe that we will have a better 'life' after death (not sure that's what that phrase means, but..)? What the heck do you see happening after death for the Christian? Or the non-Christian?

which you can easily prove, yes; see, no one would disagree with you. If they happened to be a flat earther, the maxim could still be proven with a plastic bag. etc
heck, Muhammad said that, yet you likely do not allow that he knows what he is talking about.
:)

Can't help but notice that once again you don't address the truth behind the analogy...
There is a truth there, isn't there. Despite that tiny word "If" working it's way in. Just because someone comes into the picture....people, capable of making good, or bad decisions, does NOT make the underlying truth of the bigger idea void. Space will still kill you, so will a gun, and so will life without Jesus. Period.
And who cares if Muhammad said something right. Even a stopped clock it right twice a day...even Satan is a 'believer'. Do you really want to dismiss a truth God is putting in front of you, just because that homicidal maniac said it as well?


getting your head blown off does not strike me as a little thing in that context, but i was deliberately trolling (for truth) there, yes.
perhaps a better example
i'll even try to think of one
Troll? You? No! Never!

Naomi, i am not disagreeing with you, i am saying that that is not the standard for Absolute Truth

amen!
And I am completely disagreeing with you...and, by your own admission from above, you can't really prove me wrong. From just one tiny passage that we have beaten to death, you cannot deny that it is untrue or likely to change. That is YOUR definition of AT.
 

Naomi25

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I believe you are attempting to connect the term dispensationalism with futurism as though they were one in the same, this of course is not correct. The term Dispensationalism as given in the New Oxford American Dictionary is: “Christian Theology, a belief in a system of historical progression (Ah! Historicism), as revealed in the Bible, consisting of a series of stages (Dispensations) in God’s self-revelation and plan of salvation.”

From this definition it is apparent that the historian view is much more in line with the dispensationalist view than is futurism. Nevertheless there are still many futurists as well as preterist who believe in dispensationalism, even as there are Trinitarians who believe in dispensationalism.

Yes, but, all Dispensationalist ARE futurists, are they not? And, while Dispensationalism might be loosing numbers, they still are quite prevalent. I know Historical Premil's are there too, but do they hold to dispensations of time? I'm not sure.
I don't know of any Preterist who hold to dispensations of time, nor Amil's or Post mils. Doesn't mean they aren't there, just that I've never heard of them. Mostly those last ones focus on Covenantal theology.
 

Naomi25

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OK, lets deal with the decrees. 4 that I'm aware of: Cyrus, Darius, and two by Artaxerxes. Key is Process of Elimination.

Daniel's prophecy said specifically "...from the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem..." Yet, Cyrus' and Darius' decrees found in Ezra chapters 1-6 are limited to just rebuilding the temple (yes, Artaxerxes' name is mentioned with Cyrus and Darius in 6:14 but that is a climactic verse because at the heart of Hebrew Chiastic composition structure found throughout the Bible is the "bell curve" presentation of the climax in the middle of the story instead of the end).

In chapter 7, "in the seventh year reign of Artaxerxes" his decree not only includes the directive to rebuild the temple, but also the additional mention in verses 25 - 26 the establishment of:
  • magistrates and judges - the establishment of a municipal court system
  • institutions charged with teaching the "law of God" (and the king) - both religious AND secular
  • municipal law enforcement - to execute penalties for violations
Artaxerxes' seventh year reign has been proven with beyond-the-doubt by extra-Biblical archaeology to by 457 B.C. It is argued that 444 B.C should be the date from which to calculate, but that was a resumption of his temporarily suspended original decree in 457 B.C.

With the elimination of the 3, we sit with 457 B.C. as the date to calculate, and incidentally, the only date that doesn't create total confusion with the rest of the prophecies. We can deal with Isaiah 44:28 afterward. What say you?

Well...what say I is something you probably heartily disagree with! I lean towards an Amillennial position. Which means I see the prophecy of Daniel's 70 weeks to be more symbolic in representing the Ultimate Jubilee of God.

However...if I was forced to put my vote behind what you are talking about...pick what I believed to be most biblical in terms of dates, etc. I would have to agree with you. It seems likely, should we look at it from your point of view, that the date of 457BC is the best interpretation of scripture.
 

Harvest 1874

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Yes, but, all Dispensationalist ARE futurists, are they not? And, while Dispensationalism might be loosing numbers, they still are quite prevalent. I know Historical Premil's are there too, but do they hold to dispensations of time? I'm not sure.
I don't know of any Preterist who hold to dispensations of time, nor Amil's or Post mils. Doesn't mean they aren't there, just that I've never heard of them. Mostly those last ones focus on Covenantal theology.

You state: … all Dispensationalist ARE futurists, are they not?

No they are not, I personally believe in dispensationalism that is as it is taught in the scriptures, but I am certainly not a believer in the erroneous doctrine propagated by futurist. My belief is pretty much that which was defined in New Oxford American Dictionary, i.e. a belief in a system of historical progression consisting of a series of stages (ages and dispensations) in which God is progressively working out his plan of the ages. This can easily be shown in the True Bible Chronology.

You state: while Dispensationalism might be losing numbers, they still are quite prevalent.

This is true the vast majority of professed Christians now days tend to align themselves more along futurist ideas, first of all because it’s the easiest thing to do, just put everything off into some far off future date and then you won’t have to worry about it, at least not in your lifetime.

These are naive Christians, lukewarm and asleep it is little wonder the nominal spiritual house is failing in the day of their visitation. Nevertheless the primary reason why most tend to accept futurist ideas is because they have never truly taken the time to study prophecy, an integral part of the Holy Scriptures. Did you ever stop to wonder why God put so much emphasis on prophecy in the bible?

In the Old Testament alone there were sixteen different prophets who authored seventeen books of prophecy; hence one of the three divisions of that work is designated as “The Prophets.” In the New Testament, the book of Revelation (a prophetic book) is devoted entirely to outlining events that would occur all throughout the Gospel Age, culminating in the establishment of the kingdom. In addition, many prophecies are interwoven throughout the other books of this Testament, foremost being the Lord’s Great Prophecy as found in the book of Matthew. The sayings of Jesus were so frequently associated with predictions of future events that some consider him to be among the greatest of the prophets (Acts 3:22, 23).

You state: I know Historical Premil's are there too, but do they hold to dispensations of time?

Yes Premillennialist believe in the dispensation of the ages, I’m a premillennialist myself. I believe the premillennial view is the only view wholly supported by the scriptures the other two Amillennialism and Postmillennialism are not, not without wrestling with the scriptures.

As for preterist although they believe most of the prophecy’s in the bible have already been fulfilled, specifically those mentioned by Daniel, our Lord in his great prophecy and most of Revelation I would hazard to guess that they would have to believe in dispensationalism nevertheless, otherwise how are they to explain all the events which took place prior to these latter prophecies?
 

Harvest 1874

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Well...what say I is something you probably heartily disagree with! I lean towards an Amillennial position. Which means I see the prophecy of Daniel's 70 weeks to be more symbolic in representing the Ultimate Jubilee of God.

However...if I was forced to put my vote behind what you are talking about...pick what I believed to be most biblical in terms of dates, etc. I would have to agree with you. It seems likely, should we look at it from your point of view, that the date of 457BC is the best interpretation of scripture.

If you accept the 457 B.C. date then that means you believe that 483 years later in A.D. 26 our Lord was baptized, anointed the Christ and likewise that our Lord was crucified in the spring of A.D. 30 instead of the generally accepted and well establish date spring A.D. 33

I would advise you go back and reexamine the scriptural account of our Lord’s birth, baptism and crucifixion.

The text is quite implicit, “Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks (69 weeks)…”

Here it is established that the 69 symbolic weeks or 483 years reaches until Messiah the Prince, and when was our Lord anointed the Messiah?

Jesus was not the Anointed, the Messiah, the Christ, until after his baptism. Compare Acts 10:37, 38 and Matt 3:16. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit immediately on coming out of the water. This was when he had attained manhood’s estate, which was at 30 years according to the Law, under which he was born. Our Lord’s ministry lasted 3 1/2 years at the end of which he was crucified.

The fact that his crucifixion occurred at the close of the fourteenth day of the month Nissan, and that this date rarely falls on Friday, but did so in the year A.D. 33, substantiates that date so thoroughly that even Usher, who adopted B.C. 4 as the date of Jesus' birth was forced to admit that his crucifixion was A.D. 33.

One cannot alter the facts of history so easily.
 

Naomi25

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If you accept the 457 B.C. date then that means you believe that 483 years later in A.D. 26 our Lord was baptized, anointed the Christ and likewise that our Lord was crucified in the spring of A.D. 30 instead of the generally accepted and well establish date spring A.D. 33

I would advise you go back and reexamine the scriptural account of our Lord’s birth, baptism and crucifixion.

The text is quite implicit, “Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks (69 weeks)…”

Here it is established that the 69 symbolic weeks or 483 years reaches until Messiah the Prince, and when was our Lord anointed the Messiah?

Jesus was not the Anointed, the Messiah, the Christ, until after his baptism. Compare Acts 10:37, 38 and Matt 3:16. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit immediately on coming out of the water. This was when he had attained manhood’s estate, which was at 30 years according to the Law, under which he was born. Our Lord’s ministry lasted 3 1/2 years at the end of which he was crucified.

The fact that his crucifixion occurred at the close of the fourteenth day of the month Nissan, and that this date rarely falls on Friday, but did so in the year A.D. 33, substantiates that date so thoroughly that even Usher, who adopted B.C. 4 as the date of Jesus' birth was forced to admit that his crucifixion was A.D. 33.

One cannot alter the facts of history so easily.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, sorry. I don't disagree on those dates...I don't think I ever did.
I think my point has been...there are plenty of people...bible believing people who do hold different ideas about the dates. You may disagree with them and how they arrived at their conclusions, but they have not plucked their ideas out of nowhere...they have bible verses and reasons that do make sense...rationally, if not logically to us, if you know what I mean!
I just think it is easier to be dogmatic about labeling Daniel's prophecy about Jesus (because let's face it, all scripture leads to him and his work for us), but we can be less certain of passages that are lacking specific referencing about things like the RCC. You may see it with certainty! And that's great! But understand that End Times is not a salvation issue...it's an open-hand issue. We need to be able to talk about it with a certain grace, allowing that others do not see as we do, but are still our brothers and sisters. We dialogue, not judge. And sometimes on this site, it feels like the Catholics get nothing but name-called. That's weird for me, because while I disagree on many of their doctrines, I know so many committed Christian Catholics. They love Jesus with such a passion, that it makes no sense to me to label them Antichrist.
 

Naomi25

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You state: … all Dispensationalist ARE futurists, are they not?

No they are not, I personally believe in dispensationalism that is as it is taught in the scriptures, but I am certainly not a believer in the erroneous doctrine propagated by futurist. My belief is pretty much that which was defined in New Oxford American Dictionary, i.e. a belief in a system of historical progression consisting of a series of stages (ages and dispensations) in which God is progressively working out his plan of the ages. This can easily be shown in the True Bible Chronology.

You state: while Dispensationalism might be losing numbers, they still are quite prevalent.

This is true the vast majority of professed Christians now days tend to align themselves more along futurist ideas, first of all because it’s the easiest thing to do, just put everything off into some far off future date and then you won’t have to worry about it, at least not in your lifetime.

These are naive Christians, lukewarm and asleep it is little wonder the nominal spiritual house is failing in the day of their visitation. Nevertheless the primary reason why most tend to accept futurist ideas is because they have never truly taken the time to study prophecy, an integral part of the Holy Scriptures. Did you ever stop to wonder why God put so much emphasis on prophecy in the bible?

In the Old Testament alone there were sixteen different prophets who authored seventeen books of prophecy; hence one of the three divisions of that work is designated as “The Prophets.” In the New Testament, the book of Revelation (a prophetic book) is devoted entirely to outlining events that would occur all throughout the Gospel Age, culminating in the establishment of the kingdom. In addition, many prophecies are interwoven throughout the other books of this Testament, foremost being the Lord’s Great Prophecy as found in the book of Matthew. The sayings of Jesus were so frequently associated with predictions of future events that some consider him to be among the greatest of the prophets (Acts 3:22, 23).

You state: I know Historical Premil's are there too, but do they hold to dispensations of time?

Yes Premillennialist believe in the dispensation of the ages, I’m a premillennialist myself. I believe the premillennial view is the only view wholly supported by the scriptures the other two Amillennialism and Postmillennialism are not, not without wrestling with the scriptures.

As for preterist although they believe most of the prophecy’s in the bible have already been fulfilled, specifically those mentioned by Daniel, our Lord in his great prophecy and most of Revelation I would hazard to guess that they would have to believe in dispensationalism nevertheless, otherwise how are they to explain all the events which took place prior to these latter prophecies?


I suspect my using of the term, and your using of the term, Dispensationalist, is different. Yours is probably more accurate, as I use mine to describe the group of people who believe in the 'secret rapture' before the 7 year Tribulation. Usually that's how they identify themselves.
I would have to say that I have not made any study into the End Time beliefs of SDA, so some of the things you are saying are just a little bit different to what I normally read.

I'm aware that a good 1/3 of the Bible is prophetic. And yes, I believe that makes it important, more important than most Churches give time to these days. You get labeled a 'prophecy nut' if you talk too much about it. But really...if Jesus did, doesn't that make us in good company??

As I said before...I tend Amil, but I am, perhaps, a bit of an odd duck. I see value in a lot of ways the "dispensationalists" read prophecy, and often hold the two up side by side. Which...most people would say is impossible. Sometimes it is. I'm still noodling though it. All I can say is that I see both in scripture, and both have strengths.
 
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Harvest 1874

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I'm not sure what you're getting at here, sorry. I don't disagree on those dates...I don't think I ever did.
I think my point has been...there are plenty of people...bible believing people who do hold different ideas about the dates. You may disagree with them and how they arrived at their conclusions, but they have not plucked their ideas out of nowhere...they have bible verses and reasons that do make sense...rationally, if not logically to us, if you know what I mean!
I just think it is easier to be dogmatic about labeling Daniel's prophecy about Jesus (because let's face it, all scripture leads to him and his work for us), but we can be less certain of passages that are lacking specific referencing about things like the RCC. You may see it with certainty! And that's great! But understand that End Times is not a salvation issue...it's an open-hand issue. We need to be able to talk about it with a certain grace, allowing that others do not see as we do, but are still our brothers and sisters. We dialogue, not judge. And sometimes on this site, it feels like the Catholics get nothing but name-called. That's weird for me, because while I disagree on many of their doctrines, I know so many committed Christian Catholics. They love Jesus with such a passion, that it makes no sense to me to label them Antichrist.

As the Apostle Paul once said, “I am set for the defense of the truth”, therefore I cannot in all good conscious support error, nor even give the impression that I condone it.

“The truth is God’s representative, Christ’s representative, and hence our standard; and as true soldiers we must defend our standard even unto death... We are enlisted under a Captain whose command indicates that it is one special line of truth that we are to defend with our lives—the truth of divine revelation—the divine message, the Gospel, the good tidings of redemption through the precious blood, forgiveness of sins, and in general the divine plan of salvation set forth in the inspired Word.”

As we had stated elsewhere “The wisdom which comes from above is FIRST pure, THEN peaceable, gentle, willing to yield to reason (but not to error)…” James 3:17

NOT peace first, but purity first, truth first. God first, his will, his plan, his way, it is earthly wisdom, which suggest “peace at any cost”, which commands the conscience to be silent when others are promoting errors or to be willing to concede and or compromise the truth so that selfish peace may be promoted.

As for any discussions we ourselves may have in regards to Antichrist, the apostate church and/or its representative "heads" (i.e. the Popes, especially those of the past) understand our grievance is not with individual Catholics themselves, we bare no ill will toward these; our anger is directed at the baneful system itself which attempts to counterfeit itself as the true church, the Church of Christ, claiming itself to be his representative, which has for so long entrapped many of the Lord’s true people. Our hope is that they heed the Lord’s call, ‘Come out of her my people’, before it’s too late.
 

Harvest 1874

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I suspect my using of the term, and your using of the term, Dispensationalist, is different. Yours is probably more accurate, as I use mine to describe the group of people who believe in the 'secret rapture' before the 7 year Tribulation. Usually that's how they identify themselves.
I would have to say that I have not made any study into the End Time beliefs of SDA, so some of the things you are saying are just a little bit different to what I normally read.

I'm aware that a good 1/3 of the Bible is prophetic. And yes, I believe that makes it important, more important than most Churches give time to these days. You get labeled a 'prophecy nut' if you talk too much about it. But really...if Jesus did, doesn't that make us in good company??

As I said before...I tend Amil, but I am, perhaps, a bit of an odd duck. I see value in a lot of ways the "dispensationalists" read prophecy, and often hold the two up side by side. Which...most people would say is impossible. Sometimes it is. I'm still noodling though it. All I can say is that I see both in scripture, and both have strengths.

You state: I suspect my using of the term, and you’re using of the term, Dispensationalist, is different. Yours is probably more accurate, as I use mine to describe the group of people who believe in the 'secret rapture' before the 7 year Tribulation. Usually that's how they identify themselves.

Yes it’s true a lot of dispensationalist believe in the rapture of the church prior to the great time of trouble, however the “rapture” of the Church as commonly held is a false idea one not supported by the scriptures. The Scriptures to the contrary implicitly state that those who would be members of the body of Christ, THE Church must make their calling and election sure. Such having entered into covenant relationship with the Father, “a covenant of sacrificePsa 50:5 must be proven (tried), and found “FAITHFUL UNTO DEATHRev 2:10.

The idea that somehow one is going to escape death and still be accounted a member of the body of Christ is erroneous; our covenant (that is those who have fully consecrated themselves to the Lord) is to be found faithful unto death, to be completely and totally consumed upon the Lord’s altar, used up in the service of the Lord and the brethren. When we made our consecration it was with the knowledge that we would forego all of our earthly life rights secured to us through the ransom sacrifice of Christ, these we gladly sacrifice following in the footsteps of the Master in exchange for a heavenly hope. Once we entered into covenant relationship with the Father the contract was sealed, there’s no turning back, our life rights (that is our earthly life rights) were placed upon the Lord’s altar and there they will remain until they have been utterly consumed.

As for the “twinkling of an eye” this refers not to any rapture as is commonly held, but rather to those who will experience an INSTANTANEOUS change of nature (from the human nature to the spirit nature) at the very moment of death, such the Apostle assures us will (at the time of the Lord’s Second Advent) have no need to “sleep” (in the death state), awaiting the Lord’s return, but shortly following the raising of the “dead in Christ” (those saints who have died and have been asleep in Christ some for many centuries, who have already faithfully finished their course), they too will be caught up together with them, and joined with their Lord. (1 Cor 15:50-52; 1 Thess 4:15-17)

The rapture as taught by the church nominal is not only false, but a complete cop-out, a means by which some imagine they will escape the responsibility of faithfully fulfilling their consecration even unto death. Generally such individuals have never truly made a full consecration in the first place nor have they ever entered into covenant relationship with the Father.

The Scriptures are however quite clear on the matter, viz.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrectionRom 6:5

What does this mean “if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death”?

The answer is that, as it was necessary that the Lord, the Captain of our salvation, should not only make consecration unto death as a living sacrifice, but necessary also that he should complete that consecration in actual death. The same principle applies to the entire Church, which is his body, “…It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his Lord…” (Matt 10:25) and so the members of his body "fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ” (Col 1:24), becoming living sacrifices themselves (Rom 12:1), in order to be participators with him in the glory and blessing of "his resurrection," the First Resurrection.

It will be necessary for all those who will have part in the First Resurrection to go down into actual death before participating in that resurrection's blessings, because such was their covenant, and such was the Lord's promise to them: "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Rev 2:10)

You state: I would have to say that I have not made any study into the End Time beliefs of SDA, so some of the things you are saying are just a little bit different to what I normally read.

First of all let me make clear the beliefs we hold in regards to the “End Times” as you refer are based on our study of the scriptures, not on the beliefs of the Seventh Day Adventist, we are not SDA’s, however this does not mean that everything they teach in regards to the end times is wrong.

You state: I'm aware that a good 1/3 of the Bible is prophetic. And yes, I believe that makes it important, more important than most Churches give time to these days. You get labeled a 'prophecy nut' if you talk too much about it. But really...if Jesus did, doesn't that make us in good company?

The Spirit of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy.
 

Phoneman777

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Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks (69 weeks)…”

Sorry but we must insist on the date 454 B.C. as the 69 symbolic weeks (or 483 years) were to reach unto Messiah the Prince. If we started from 457 B.C. we would come up 3 years short or prior to our Lord’s baptism and anointing.

Our Lord’s ministry covered 3 ½ years, ending with his crucifixion, at the time of the Passover, in the spring of A.D. 33. In this he exactly fulfilled the prophecy concerning the remaining or last week (seven years) of promised favor, which says:

AFTER (“seven weeks and sixty-two weeks”), sixty-nine weeks shall Messiah be cut off [“be slain”, Douay translation] but not for himself, in the midst of the week [the remaining 70th] he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.”

Once again if we accept the date of 457 B.C. not only does that move the date of our Lord’s anointing up 3 years (from Autumn 29 A.D. to Autumn 26 A.D.), but likewise since his ministry only lasted 3 ½ years the time of his crucifixion must likewise be moved up from the spring of 33 A.D. to the spring of 30 A.D.

Sorry but this completely destroys the whole prophecy, especially seeing as the dates of our Lord’s birth, baptism and crucifixion are well established.
If we start counting from 457 B.C., we come to 27 A.D, when Jesus was baptized at "about 30 years old".
 

Harvest 1874

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If we start counting from 457 B.C., we come to 27 A.D, when Jesus was baptized at "about 30 years old".

Was our Lord baptized in 27 A.D. or 29 A.D.?

Let’s review the facts.

John the Baptist was six months older than our Lord (Luke 1:26, 36); hence he was of age (thirty years, according to the Law--Num. 4:3; Luke 3:23, etc.) and began to preach six months before our Lord became of age and began his ministry.

The date of the beginning of John's ministry is clearly stated to have been the "fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar," the third emperor of Rome. (Luke 3:1) This is a clearly fixed date of which there can be no reasonable doubt.

Tiberius became emperor at the death of Augustus Caesar, in the year of Rome 767, which was the year A.D. 14. But those misled by the inaccurate statements of Josephus relative to Herod, and who place the birth of Jesus at B.C. 4, in order to harmonize with him, run across a difficulty in this clearly stated date given by Luke, and endeavor to make it also harmonize with their B.C. 4 theory.

To accomplish this end they make the claim that Tiberius began to exercise authority some two to four years before Augustus died, and before he was fully constituted emperor. They claim that possibly his rule might have been reckoned from that date. But such suppositions will be found baseless, by any who will investigate the matter on the pages of history.

It is true that Tiberius was exalted to a very important position by Augustus, but it was not four years before Augustus' death, as their theory would demand, but ten years before, in A.D. 4, and the power then conferred upon him was only such as had been enjoyed by others before his day. It was in no sense of the word imperial power, and in no sense of the word can his "reign" be said to have begun there: he was only the heir-apparent. Even in the most exaggerated use of language, his "reign" could not be said to have commenced before Augustus' death and his own investiture in office at the hands of the Roman Senate, A.D. 14.

History says, "The Emperor, whose declining age needed an associate, adopted Tiberius A.D. 4, renewing his tribunal power." Article TIBERIUS, Rees' Cyclopedia.

"He [Augustus] determined accordingly to devolve upon him [Tiberius] a share in the government, this formal investiture placed him on the same footing as that enjoyed by the veteran Agrippa during his later years, and there can be no doubt that it was universally regarded as an introduction to the first place in the empire, the program for the succession was significantly shadowed out: Tiberius had been ordered to assume his place at the head of the Senate, the people, and the army, the adoption, which took place at the same time, is dated June 27 (A.U.C. 757)--A.D. 4." Merivale's History of the Romans (Appleton's), Vol. IV, pp. 220,221

Thus there is conclusive proof that the first year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar was not two to four years before Augustus died; and that the honors referred to as conferred during Augustus' reign were conferred ten, and not four, years before Augustus' death, and then were in no sense imperial honors.

Nowhere in histories, monuments, or coins of unquestioned authority, is there a trace of any other reckoning of the years of Tiberius Caesar, than from the date of Augustus on the 19th of August 14 A.D.

We may, therefore, consider the date of Luke 3:1 not merely the only one furnished in the New Testament, but an unequivocal one. There can be no doubt about it in the minds of any who have investigated it. Tiberius began to reign in A.D. 14.

The fifteenth year of his reign would therefore be the year A.D. 29, in which year, Luke states (3:1-3), John began his ministry. Since our Lord's 30th birthday and the beginning of his ministry was in October, and since John's birthday and the beginning of his ministry was just six months earlier, it follows that John began his ministry in the spring, about April first--just as soon as he was of age; for God's plans are always carried out on exact time.

So, then, John was thirty years old in A.D. 29, about April first, consequently he was born B.C. 2, (For the benefit of those not much accustomed to calculating dates, we call attention to the fact that in the beginning of the year A.D. 29, only 28 full years had elapsed: the twenty-ninth was only beginning.) about April first.

And Jesus' birth, six months later, would have likewise been B.C. 2, only about October first.

Now it is self-evident that if our Lord were only six months younger than John than he too would have been 30 years of age in 29 A.D., the age in which he began his ministry (Luke 3:23) shortly following his baptism by John at the river Jordan.

Remember my brother, “All scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God (that is the humble and teachable man of God) may be thoroughly furnished unto every good work.” 2 Tim 3:16, 17

May you continue to grow in the graces and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Phoneman777

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Well...what say I is something you probably heartily disagree with! I lean towards an Amillennial position. Which means I see the prophecy of Daniel's 70 weeks to be more symbolic in representing the Ultimate Jubilee of God.

However...if I was forced to put my vote behind what you are talking about...pick what I believed to be most biblical in terms of dates, etc. I would have to agree with you. It seems likely, should we look at it from your point of view, that the date of 457BC is the best interpretation of scripture.
Interesting. I'd bet a bazzillion dollars you feel that way about it pointing to an end of time Jubilee because of where it says "70 weeks are determined (cut off)...to finish the transgression and make an end of sin, to make reconciliation for iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy." Since transgression and sin are still happening, since everlasting righteousness hasn't been set up yet, well then, the fulfillment of the 70 Weeks must be future, right? The key is our perspective on that little word "to".

If I said, "Naomi, thanks for inviting me over for that chick-flick-till-we're-sick marathon, but I'm working overtime tonight to get my kid through college", you wouldn't assume that as soon as I clock out, my kid will don a cap and gown. You'd understand that what follows "to" is merely an explanation why I'm working late. So it is with Daniel 9:24 - The part that follows "to" is a list of reasons why the 70 Weeks are cut off, period. Sure, graduation is the goal, and ending sin and transgression is the goal as well, but both my shift and the 70 Weeks can end without the goals being realized until sometime in the future.
 

Phoneman777

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To accomplish this end they make the claim that Tiberius began to exercise authority some two to four years before Augustus died, and before he was fully constituted emperor...But such suppositions will be found baseless, by any who will investigate the matter on the pages of history..
I have to respectfully disagree for the time being for these reasons:
  • According to Gibbon, Augustus “dictated a law by which the future prince (Tiberius) was invested with an authority equal to his own, over the provinces and the armies.” (Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol 1. p.30.)
  • “all Rome, which hated [Tiberius] for his stern puritanism, resigned itself to the fact that though Augustus was still prince, Tiberius had begun to rule.” (Durant vol.3 p.231.)
  • Augustus’ health had been failing for some years, and he was “an invalid at sixty (2 B.C.)” (See, Durant vol.3, p.231)). Augustus made Tiberius his co-regent, and in Judea, the reign of Tiberius was dated – not from the death of Augustus (as would normally have been the case) – but from that time, two years prior to the death of Augustus, when Tiberius was given legal equality with Augustus .
Secular historians once mocked the Bible's short chronology based on adding up the reigns of kings which added thousands of years to the Bible's chronology...until they discovered that kings and their sons were CO-REGENTS time and time again, so much so that they've had to shave those thousands of years down, down, down, to come alongside with what the Bible says is truth, and that today, if any historian so much as attempts to date something 3,500 B.C., they will be sure to put a +/- next to it, lest God spank them as He did all those earlier historians.
 

Harvest 1874

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I have to respectfully disagree for the time being for these reasons:
  • According to Gibbon, Augustus “dictated a law by which the future prince (Tiberius) was invested with an authority equal to his own, over the provinces and the armies.” (Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol 1. p.30.)
  • “all Rome, which hated [Tiberius] for his stern puritanism, resigned itself to the fact that though Augustus was still prince, Tiberius had begun to rule.” (Durant vol.3 p.231.)
  • Augustus’ health had been failing for some years, and he was “an invalid at sixty (2 B.C.)” (See, Durant vol.3, p.231)). Augustus made Tiberius his co-regent, and in Judea, the reign of Tiberius was dated – not from the death of Augustus (as would normally have been the case) – but from that time, two years prior to the death of Augustus, when Tiberius was given legal equality with Augustus .
Secular historians once mocked the Bible's short chronology based on adding up the reigns of kings which added thousands of years to the Bible's chronology...until they discovered that kings and their sons were CO-REGENTS time and time again, so much so that they've had to shave those thousands of years down, down, down, to come alongside with what the Bible says is truth, and that today, if any historian so much as attempts to date something 3,500 B.C., they will be sure to put a +/- next to it, lest God spank them as He did all those earlier historians.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, no need to get worked up over it, it is not essential to ones salvation.
 

Phoneman777

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We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, no need to get worked up over it, it is not essential to ones salvation.
Sounds good. Though I appreciate reading the nuts and bolts of competing eschatological ideas.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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I consider you a deep-thinker on this site and a diligent searcher of the truth and God, our Father. Please promise yourself and me you will NEVER give up your quest and be as Paul was and said...I have fought the good fight and ran the race....KEEP the FAITH!

Bless you,

APAK

Thank you for the encouraging words. I thought I was finished with the subject but one last question: In Deuteronomy 5:9-10 God commands "Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. In (John 14:21-24) Jesus refers to them as His commandments. If we love Him, we will keep His commandments." Like I said, this is important to me. God is a Jealous God (not our kind of jealousy) but He will not share His glory with another. Which I am sure someone else has brought up already. But to say Jesus was not God in the flesh, "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person," manifested...is two separate and to follow two, not One.
 

APAK

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Thank you for the encouraging words. I thought I was finished with the subject but one last question: In Deuteronomy 5:9-10 God commands "Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. In (John 14:21-24) Jesus refers to them as His commandments. If we love Him, we will keep His commandments." Like I said, this is important to me. God is a Jealous God (not our kind of jealousy) but He will not share His glory with another. Which I am sure someone else has brought up already. But to say Jesus was not God in the flesh, "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person," manifested...is two separate and to follow two, not One.

VictoryinJesus:

When I read or hear of people believing that Jesus as a human being just had to be God himself, three things come to mind:

- They do not understand the purpose of Jesus Christ and why his Father created him as a human being.

- They have provided extra-scriptural evidence from the traditions and theories of men.

- They have not bothered to really understand scripture. They have just ‘winged’ it.

First, we follow God Almighty. Today, to do this with effect, means to also follow his son, our Lord and Savior.

God Almighty has always been worshipped and always shall be worshipped. His son also, since he became transformed to the glorious state with immortality with the power and authority of his Father.

Bless you,

APAK
 
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