What are we really dealing with here?

[Naomi25]

As the Apostle Paul once said, “I am set for the defense of the truth”, therefore I cannot in all good conscious support error, nor even give the impression that I condone it.

“The truth is God’s representative, Christ’s representative, and hence our standard; and as true soldiers we must defend our standard even unto death... We are enlisted under a Captain whose command indicates that it is one special line of truth that we are to defend with our lives—the truth of divine revelation—the divine message, the Gospel, the good tidings of redemption through the precious blood, forgiveness of sins, and in general the divine plan of salvation set forth in the inspired Word.”

As we had stated elsewhere “The wisdom which comes from above is FIRST pure, THEN peaceable, gentle, willing to yield to reason (but not to error)…” James 3:17

NOT peace first, but purity first, truth first. God first, his will, his plan, his way, it is earthly wisdom, which suggest “peace at any cost”, which commands the conscience to be silent when others are promoting errors or to be willing to concede and or compromise the truth so that selfish peace may be promoted.

I'm not suggesting you waver in your belief in what you think to be true...or to validate what others think if you believe it to be in error. As you know, I also see the value in standing your ground on matters of truth. Especially in closed-hand matters (matters essential to salvation).
My point was only that there is a difference between validating them, and acknowledging their right to think something different, and that you can see how they may have arrived there.

As for any discussions we ourselves may have in regards to Antichrist, the apostate church and/or its representative "heads" (i.e. the Popes, especially those of the past) understand our grievance is not with individual Catholics themselves, we bare no ill will toward these; our anger is directed at the baneful system itself which attempts to counterfeit itself as the true church, the Church of Christ, claiming itself to be his representative, which has for so long entrapped many of the Lord’s true people. Our hope is that they heed the Lord’s call, ‘Come out of her my people’, before it’s too late.

Well...the Pope may understand you grievance is with him...but, do do the individuals? I wonder if the time is taken to try and separate out what it is the Pope does and supports, as opposed to the people? Because as it stands, I think when they see you attacking the RCC in general, or the Pope, they still see that as fingers pointed at them. And you can't really blame them...that's their faith, and that's intensely personal and meaningful. If you want them to have a reason to even consider they may need to look at the Catholic Church from a distance...in other words, separate themselves from it while they have an objective look, you may need to try and make an effort to explain that before you pull out all your "anit-catholic" stuff. Just sayin....

 

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

all bowling balls are spheres

Yes and in lawn balls the balls also have a bias, which causes them to swing across a line. Now in 10 pin balling the balls also swing but I am not sure of the reason for that. Maybe they are just made badly and they swing erratically. Well that has been my experience.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Well...the Pope may understand you grievance is with him...but, do do the individuals? I wonder if the time is taken to try and separate out what it is the Pope does and supports, as opposed to the people? Because as it stands, I think when they see you attacking the RCC in general, or the Pope, they still see that as fingers pointed at them. And you can't really blame them...that's their faith, and that's intensely personal and meaningful. If you want them to have a reason to even consider they may need to look at the Catholic Church from a distance...in other words, separate themselves from it while they have an objective look, you may need to try and make an effort to explain that before you pull out all your "anit-catholic" stuff. Just sayin....

Ones faith should not be in an institution or the head of that institution, it should be in the Lord and in his word. The difficulty with many and this includes Protestants as well, is that they worship their organization or sect as much as they claim they worship the Lord, the two become so intertwined that the one can't be separated from the other. So if any errors are pointed out in their organization and its teachings they take this as a personal attack upon their faith.

And yet they cannot see that the Lord no longer speaks through any of these organizations anymore, they have been cast off, "vomited from the Lord's mouth" (Rev 3:16), the light of the lamp (the word of God) no longer shines in them anymore, nor is the voice of the bridegroom (our Lord Jesus Christ) and the bride (the true church) heard in them anymore (Rev 18:23), this is because most of the truly faithful have long since departed as in compliance with the word of the Lord, viz. (Rev 18:4) and yet these organization continue to imagine that they speak for the Lord.

Blind to their true condition they proclaim that they are rich, wealthy and have need of nothing, but the Lord states otherwise saying that they are wretched, miserable, poor (possessing little of the truth and the spirit of the truth), blind (cannot perceive God's plan beyond their own, they cannot see the two salvation's, the high calling of the Church and restitution for the poor world), and naked (they have been stripped of the rope of Christ's righteousness by the clergy in the name of higher criticism and evolution). Rev 3:17

 

[Naomi25]

You state: I suspect my using of the term, and you’re using of the term, Dispensationalist, is different. Yours is probably more accurate, as I use mine to describe the group of people who believe in the 'secret rapture' before the 7 year Tribulation. Usually that's how they identify themselves.

Yes it’s true a lot of dispensationalist believe in the rapture of the church prior to the great time of trouble, however the “rapture” of the Church as commonly held is a false idea one not supported by the scriptures. The Scriptures to the contrary implicitly state that those who would be members of the body of Christ, THE Church must make their calling and election sure. Such having entered into covenant relationship with the Father, “a covenant of sacrifice” Psa 50:5 must be proven (tried), and found “FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH” Rev 2:10.

Ummm. Not sure I agree that we enter into a "covenant of sacrifice". When we put our faith in Christ, we enter into the New Covenant in his blood...the covenant of grace. Hebrews 9:12 tells us that his sacrifice secured for us "eternal redemption". Romans 3:24 says that such grace and redemption is a gift from God through Christ, and Eph 2:8 repeats: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not by your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

So...not a result of works. So...we cannot earn it, or prove it. It is wholly a gift, and it cannot truly be a gift, if we play some part in earning it.
But, once we have it, we must grow in it (sanctification), and be faithful in it (unto death if that is where He calls us). Those who don't grow or endure, prove that the rebirth never really happened. It's a matter of fruit.

The idea that somehow one is going to escape death and still be accounted a member of the body of Christ is erroneous; our covenant (that is those who have fully consecrated themselves to the Lord) is to be found faithful unto death, to be completely and totally consumed upon the Lord’s altar, used up in the service of the Lord and the brethren. When we made our consecration it was with the knowledge that we would forego all of our earthly life rights secured to us through the ransom sacrifice of Christ, these we gladly sacrifice following in the footsteps of the Master in exchange for a heavenly hope. Once we entered into covenant relationship with the Father the contract was sealed, there’s no turning back, our life rights (that is our earthly life rights) were placed upon the Lord’s altar and there they will remain until they have been utterly consumed.

As for the “twinkling of an eye” this refers not to any rapture as is commonly held, but rather to those who will experience an INSTANTANEOUS change of nature (from the human nature to the spirit nature) at the very moment of death, such the Apostle assures us will (at the time of the Lord’s Second Advent) have no need to “sleep” (in the death state), awaiting the Lord’s return, but shortly following the raising of the “dead in Christ” (those saints who have died and have been asleep in Christ some for many centuries, who have already faithfully finished their course), they too will be caught up together with them, and joined with their Lord. (1 Cor 15:50-52; 1 Thess 4:15-17)

I'm not sure that's the most faithful interpretation of that passage. Now...I don't know that I believe we can say that a Rapture will happen 7 years before Jesus' return, but I would say that the passage does talk about people, who are alive at Christ's coming, not having to experience death. Especially when we put together all Paul's teaching on that particular moment:

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. -1 Cor 15:51-52

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. - 1 Thess 4:16-17

"Sleep" is the word often used for dying or being dead, as you say. And these passages clearly state that some of us, those alive when Jesus returns, shall not sleep. We shall be caught up in the air...after the dead have been...and given our new bodies. There is nothing here to suggest that those people must 'fall asleep' to collect those new bodies first. Indeed, the simplest reading of it tells us the opposite. Which leaves us with the conclusion that a Rapture is, indeed, biblical. The question becomes, when? Under what circumstances?

The rapture as taught by the church nominal is not only false, but a complete cop-out, a means by which some imagine they will escape the responsibility of faithfully fulfilling their consecration even unto death. Generally such individuals have never truly made a full consecration in the first place nor have they ever entered into covenant relationship with the Father.

The Scriptures are however quite clear on the matter, viz.

“For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection” Rom 6:5

What does this mean “if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death”?

The answer is that, as it was necessary that the Lord, the Captain of our salvation, should not only make consecration unto death as a living sacrifice, but necessary also that he should complete that consecration in actual death. The same principle applies to the entire Church, which is his body, “…It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his Lord…” (Matt 10:25) and so the members of his body "fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ” (Col 1:24), becoming living sacrifices themselves (Rom 12:1), in order to be participators with him in the glory and blessing of "his resurrection," the First Resurrection.

It will be necessary for all those who will have part in the First Resurrection to go down into actual death before participating in that resurrection's blessings, because such was their covenant, and such was the Lord's promise to them: "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Rev 2:10)

Actually...I disagree with you on two points. One...the bible does not call us to enter into a Covenant directly with the Father, but with the Son (and therefore with the Father, as they are one). As I said before, it is the Covenant of Grace.

The second point is: I think you are missing the point of grace and of Christ's propitiation for us. He died, so that we are free from death. Yes, the Kingdom has not yet been fully consummated while God brings more children into the Kingdom, and so death still has it's "sting". But death is not a part of the 'contract' you sign with God to prove you are serious about following him.

The "planted together in the likeness of his death" reference is talking about our union with Christ. The passage speaks of both his death and resurrection. It reasons that when we are "in Christ" we participate in his death. His death was a means of putting sin to death, releasing his followers from the power of sin and death...Christ paid the price of sin in his own death, and our being united 'in him' means we also, in a substitutionary manner, experience this without having to...well...experience this. That is why it is called the "substitutionary atonement of Christ". He died in our place, for our sins. And likewise, in his resurrection, we have assurance that once this life has passed from us, either through death or through end of the age, that we too shall share in the resurrection of life. That even now we have new life in our ability to live free from the shackles of sin and the knowledge that death cannot hold us, just as it did not hold our Lord.
This passage does not tell us that like Jesus, we too must pass through death like some sort of cultist ritual. In him, we already have.

You state: I would have to say that I have not made any study into the End Time beliefs of SDA, so some of the things you are saying are just a little bit different to what I normally read.

First of all let me make clear the beliefs we hold in regards to the “End Times” as you refer are based on our study of the scriptures, not on the beliefs of the Seventh Day Adventist, we are not SDA’s, however this does not mean that everything they teach in regards to the end times is wrong.

Isn't it funny how everyone thinks their 'end times' version comes straight from their study of the scriptures, and no where else?

You state: I'm aware that a good 1/3 of the Bible is prophetic. And yes, I believe that makes it important, more important than most Churches give time to these days. You get labeled a 'prophecy nut' if you talk too much about it. But really...if Jesus did, doesn't that make us in good company?

The Spirit of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy.

Hmmm. Not gonna go there.

 

[Naomi25]

Interesting. I'd bet a bazzillion dollars you feel that way about it pointing to an end of time Jubilee because of where it says "70 weeks are determined (cut off)...to finish the transgression and make an end of sin, to make reconciliation for iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy." Since transgression and sin are still happening, since everlasting righteousness hasn't been set up yet, well then, the fulfillment of the 70 Weeks must be future, right? The key is our perspective on that little word "to".

If I said, "Naomi, thanks for inviting me over for that chick-flick-till-we're-sick marathon, but I'm working overtime tonight to get my kid through college", you wouldn't assume that as soon as I clock out, my kid will don a cap and gown. You'd understand that what follows "to" is merely an explanation why I'm working late. So it is with Daniel 9:24 - The part that follows "to" is a list of reasons why the 70 Weeks are cut off, period. Sure, graduation is the goal, and ending sin and transgression is the goal as well, but both my shift and the 70 Weeks can end without the goals being realized until sometime in the future.

Actually, no, sorry! It has to do with Daniel's prayer to God and it's covenantal nature, and then God's response in the 70 weeks prophecy.
Daniel, while praying to God about the exile Israel is currently in, reminds God of His covenantal faithfulness. And Gabriel's reply also assumes a covenantal pattern by assuming a sabbatical mold.

Let me explain: We know the Israelites themselves were to rest on the 7th day, and the land also was to rest in the 7th year. When Gabriel spoke of the “sevens,” 70 of which were decreed for Israel, he had in mind the 7 year period, the 7th year of which was a sabbatical year of rest for the land (Lev 25:2-7).

Meredith Kline, a theologian, points out that the sabbath itself, whether for the people or the land, functioned “as a prophetic symbol of the consummation of the covenant order. As elaborated in the Mosaic covenant . . . the sabbath served as a sign of the messianic age of redemptive liberation, restitution, and rest [see esp Heb 4:1-11]”.

This idea seems confirmed when we see that Gabriel spoke of “70” of these units of 7 (490 years). Why did he not choose 30 or 50 or 80 “sevens” instead of “70 sevens”? The reason is found in Lev 25:8-55 when we find God's year of JUBILEE. (Verses 8-12 are particularly important:
“You shall count seven weeks of years, seven times seven years, so that the time of the seven weeks of years shall give you forty-nine years. 9 Then you shall sound the loud trumpet on the tenth day of the seventh month. On the Day of Atonement you shall sound the trumpet throughout all your land. 10 And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, when each of you shall return to his property and each of you shall return to his clan. 11 That fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for you; in it you shall neither sow nor reap what grows of itself nor gather the grapes from the undressed vines. 12 For it is a jubilee. It shall be holy to you. You may eat the produce of the field.

The Jubilee was a year in which pardon and equity, freedom, release, social justice and restoration were emphasized and experienced. The jubilee was a sign for a new beginning, the inauguration of moral, spiritual, and national renewal!
It should be of no surprise to us that the jubilee became a symbol and prefigurement of the ultimate redemption, release, and restoration that God would accomplish spiritually on behalf of his people.

Then...the real deal maker is this: it all takes on special significance when we realize that in Daniel, Gabriel tells him that there is decreed for Israel a total period of seventy sevens of years or 490 years, which is to say 10 JUBILEE ERAS, “an intensification of the jubilee concept pointing to the ultimate, antitypical jubilee”.

That's sort of a brief overview of the idea. It's also interesting when you look at what Jesus said in Luke 4:18-19:
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

 

[Naomi25]

Ones faith should not be in an institution or the head of that institution, it should be in the Lord and in his word. The difficulty with many and this includes Protestants as well, is that they worship their organization or sect as much as they claim they worship the Lord, the two become so intertwined that the one can't be separated from the other. So if any errors are pointed out in their organization and its teachings they take this as a personal attack upon their faith.

And yet they cannot see that the Lord no longer speaks through any of these organizations anymore, they have been cast off, "vomited from the Lord's mouth" (Rev 3:16), the light of the lamp (the word of God) no longer shines in them anymore, nor is the voice of the bridegroom (our Lord Jesus Christ) and the bride (the true church) heard in them anymore (Rev 18:23), this is because most of the truly faithful have long since departed as in compliance with the word of the Lord, viz. (Rev 18:4) and yet these organization continue to imagine that they speak for the Lord.

Blind to their true condition they proclaim that they are rich, wealthy and have need of nothing, but the Lord states otherwise saying that they are wretched, miserable, poor (possessing little of the truth and the spirit of the truth), blind (cannot perceive God's plan beyond their own, they cannot see the two salvation's, the high calling of the Church and restitution for the poor world), and naked (they have been stripped of the rope of Christ's righteousness by the clergy in the name of higher criticism and evolution). Rev 3:17

No. This is a broad categorization that does not do justice to anyone. It is far more complicated than that and you know it. I don't know if you categorize yourself as an SDA, but if you do, I'd hazard a guess you find yourself under a fair bit of fire simply because of that label. But the label symbolizes what you believe. And after a good while, you no longer distinguish so much, you just hear "SDA"s are this, or that, and take it as a direct attack or insult against what you believe. It does not mean you worship your organization, does it?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes and in lawn balls the balls also have a bias, which causes them to swing across a line. Now in 10 pin balling the balls also swing but I am not sure of the reason for that. Maybe they are just made badly and they swing erratically. Well that has been my experience.

lol
lawn balls have a bias? well i'll be, hmm. Must be an interesting game
you do bowl them, huh. But the bias is weight, right?

 

[Harvest 1874]

No. This is a broad categorization that does not do justice to anyone. It is far more complicated than that and you know it. I don't know if you categorize yourself as an SDA, but if you do, I'd hazard a guess you find yourself under a fair bit of fire simply because of that label. But the label symbolizes what you believe. And after a good while, you no longer distinguish so much, you just hear "SDA"s are this, or that, and take it as a direct attack or insult against what you believe. It does not mean you worship your organization, does it?

I will address this post first as your reply to my prior post will require more attention. As I said most emphatically in several post now, we are not Seventh Day Adventist we are Bible Students, that’s it, that’s our nomenclature, of course it’s not actually a title or anything it’s just what we and those familiar with us refer to us as. We don’t refer to ourselves by any of the sectarian names found throughout Christendom as we are not a part of any such, if we were to accept any designation it would Christians, disciples or followers of Christ plain and simple.

Nevertheless as you say because we stand for the word of God, and that only we have and even now continue to be persecuted for our stand for the truth, but this we gladly accept, the Master himself said that if any man would become his disciple he must take up his cross and follow him, and that the disciple cannot be above his Lord, and if they called the Master of the house Beelzebub, still more may it be expected they will say in regards to his inferior servants.

As for worshiping an organization, we have no organization therefore there’s none to worship.

 

[Jay Ross]

lol
lawn balls have a bias? well i'll be, hmm. Must be an interesting game
you do bowl them, huh. But the bias is weight, right?

Yer, like underarm, they are too heavy to bowl like a cricket ball. Oh and they have no finger holes with which to hold the ball either.

In cricket, the ball is given bias by "polishing" one side and roughing up the other. Then the laws of drag take over and swing the ball.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yer, like underarm, they are too heavy to bowl like a cricket ball. Oh and they have no finger holes with which to hold the ball either.

In cricket, the ball is given bias by "polishing" one side and roughing up the other. Then the laws of drag take over and swing the ball.

ah, thought that was considered cheating?

 

[Harvest 1874]

ah, thought that was considered cheating?

Ummm. Not sure I agree that we enter into a "covenant of sacrifice". When we put our faith in Christ, we enter into the New Covenant in his blood...the covenant of grace. Hebrews 9:12 tells us that his sacrifice secured for us "eternal redemption". Romans 3:24 says that such grace and redemption is a gift from God through Christ, and Eph 2:8 repeats: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not by your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

So...not a result of works. So...we cannot earn it, or prove it. It is wholly a gift, and it cannot truly be a gift, if we play some part in earning it.
But, once we have it, we must grow in it (sanctification), and be faithful in it (unto death if that is where He calls us). Those who don't grow or endure, prove that the rebirth never really happened. It's a matter of fruit.

It is evident from this response that your knowledge of the various covenants mentioned in the scriptures is somewhat limited therefore we should probably begin with a review of some of these. A clear appreciation of the divine covenants is important and valuable to the Christian. In the knowledge of these he possesses the key to the understanding of the entire plan of God.

The first covenant (literally the first) is the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 17:1-7)

Gen. 22:16-18: “...By myself have I sworn, for because thou hast...not withheld thy son, thy only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”

It is important to note here that there are two distinct classes here that are to be ultimately bless, an earthly seed, “as the sand upon the sea shore”, and a heavenly seed, “as the stars of the heavens”

The next covenant was the “Law covenant”, Gal. 3:19, 17: “...It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise (of the first covenant) of none effect.”

The Law covenant...was an addition to the previous covenant, the Abrahamic covenant being the original had stood for four hundred and thirty years before the Law covenant was added. The Jewish nation was the only nation that was in direct covenant relationship with the Lord. “Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” Amos 3:1, 2

The Law Covenant was given ONLY to the Jewish nation and they alone were bound by it, it was NOT given to any of the Gentile nations (peoples), that is why we are in no way under the Law Covenant. Never allow any one to convince you other wise.

Gal. 4:22, 23: “...Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman (Hagar, a type of the Law Covenant) was born after the flesh; and he of the freewoman (Sarah a type of the Abrahamic Covenant) was by promise.”

Gal. 4:24,” Which things are an allegory: (symbolic, type and antitype) for these (two women) are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gave birth (bore children, fleshly Israel) to bondage (a covenant of bondage, saying you must do this or you must not do that, i.e. the Law Covenant), which is Agar (Hagar).”

Gal. 4:25, “And this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is (the earthly capital), and is in bondage with her children (under the Law).”

Gal. 4:26, “But Jerusalem which is above is free (Spiritual Zion the heavenly Jerusalem), which is the mother of us all. (Sarah, the mother of the promised seed, to which Isaac, was typical of Christ Jesus the Head and the Church his Body.)

Thus the Church is developed under the same Covenant-Mother, as was Christ. His was a Covenant of sacrifice. We will get back to this “Covenant of Sacrifice” in a little bit, but first let us look at the remainder of our scriptures.”

Gal. 4:27, “For it is written, (in Isa 54:1), Rejoice, thou barren that bears not (As Sarah was barren, so the primary, or chief, Covenant of God, the Abrahamic, was barren for a long time, until Jesus came.); break forth and cry, thou that travails not, for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.”

Gal. 4:28, “Now we, brethren, (The Apostle's argument based on the allegory, we taking the place of Isaac as the antitype)…are the children of the promise (As Isaac was the heir of Abraham and child of the promise, by Sarah, so we, like Isaac, are children of God, of the Sarah Covenant. See Gal 3:29).

Gal. 4:29,30, but as then he that was born after the flesh, (Ishmael, a type of the Jew under the Law Covenant.) persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, (by the promise, Isaac a type of The Christ.) even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman (As Hagar and her son were outcast for a time only, so the Law Covenant and the Jews have been cut off from divine favor only for a time.) and her son (When Isaac was born, Sarah repudiated Ishmael and no longer acknowledged him as her son, but, instead, claimed everything for Isaac, In antitype, when God began the development of spiritual Israel, it was clearly manifest that the chief portion of the promise was to be fulfilled through the Isaac seed, typified by the Christ, head and Body.)…for the son (Ishmael, type of the Jew under the Law.) of the bondwoman shall not be heir (shall not be the true seed, and inherited the promise) with the son of the freewoman.”

Gal. 4:31, so then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman (under the Law Covenant), but of the free (Sarah, type of the Abrahamic Covenant, the Grace Covenant, the Covenant of sacrifice.).” So in essence these last three are all related to the same thing.

I must brake here due to character limits, but I will cover the Covenant of Sacrifice and the New Covenant in my next post.

 

[Harvest 1874]

The question now is what is this “Covenant of Sacrifice” that the true followers of Christ are supposed to be under?

Where is it mentioned in the scriptures, and what are its requirements?

The call to sacrifice, “Gather my saints together to me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.” Psa 50:5

The Apostle Paul likewise mentions this covenant (although not by name), and its requirements when in Rom 12:1 speaking to the brethren he exhorts:

“I beseech (I entreat) you therefore, brethren (fellow believers), by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service (Nowhere does God command anyone to make a consecration to sacrifice, it is completely voluntary).”

Not all believers have responded to this call or invitation. The great majority have simply been satisfied being reconciled to God through faith in Christ, and as such have ignored Paul's exhortation. They believe in Christ and in the assurance of their salvation and that good enough for them, they have no desire for anything else least of all to sacrifice.

God demands that all of his creatures shall approve of righteousness and hate iniquity, but he does not demand that any should sacrifice their lives in his service, nor for any other cause. Sacrifice is a voluntary act and not demanded by the law.

However you cannot become a member of the Body of Christ unless you do sacrifice. The requirements regarding discipleship (a follower) of Christ are that we take up our cross and follow in the Masters footsteps that if we would obtain the reward (the heavenly calling) for which we are called we must be willing to tread the same path as he did, to enter the narrow way that leads to self-denial and sacrifice.

As with our Lord this begins with a full consecration or surrender of one’s self to the will of God. The moment we consecrate ourselves fully to the Father and upon his acceptance we enter into covenant arrangement with the Lord, a “covenant by sacrifice”. This covenant once entered is binding there’s no turning back, this is why we are admonished by the Lord that we “count the cost” first before taking this step. It is at this point that we are baptized (made participators) in Christ death, that is “being made conformable to his death” (Rom 6:3; Phil 3:10) we willingly laid down all our earthly rights and privileges as human beings, including our restitution (life) rights reckoned ours at the moment when we were fully justified.

Having been counted in as a member of his body, our Lord (the Christ as a whole) has been dying now for a little over 2000 years. Sharing in the sufferings of Christ, we “fill up that which remains of the afflictions of Christ”.

None are saints without sacrifice. Rev 11:18 makes this abundantly clear by distinguishing between those who fear God's name (believers in general) and the Saints (the sanctified in Christ Jesus).

“To render all we have to the Lord’s service is not only a reasonable thing, but an offering far too small, far less than we would like to render to him who has manifested such compassion and grace toward us. And we should feel thus, even if there were no rewards and blessings we should feel not only that a refusal to accept would be an indication also of weakness of mind, of judgment, which is unable to balance the trifling and transitory pleasures of self-will for a few short years, with an eternity of joy and blessing and glory, in harmony with the Lord.”

Now to our last covenant, the “New Covenant”

“The New Covenant, was represented in Abraham’s family by a woman, for after the death of Sarah, Abraham married again, his wife’s name being Keturah; and by her we are told that he had...sons... whereas there was but one son by Hagar, and one by Sarah. The intimation thus clearly is that under the New Covenant God will bring many into the relationship of sons, as it is written of Abraham, who typified God, “I have constituted thee a father of many nations.” Gen. 17:4”

“This New Covenant is to be made with Israel alone; for God never purposed to make a covenant with the Gentiles,

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke (the Law covenant), although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jer 31:31-34

After Israel shall have been fully established under their New Covenant, all other nations will be privileged to come into this relationship after the manner set forth in the Law. The entire world will eventually be blessed thereby. That is to say that all the future blessing to come to the world will come to them once they too come under the requirements set forth in the Kingdom, but the blessings come first to Israel, as the Apostle Paul says, “…it is to the Jew first, and also the Greek.”

And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mount (Messiah's Kingdom, represented on earth by Israel, as the divine channel of blessing,) of the LORD'S house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it (The New covenant will be inaugurated with natural Israel and gradually the whole world will become attached to Israel as part of Abraham's earthly seed.). And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob (The New covenant will be made only with Israel. The only way other nations can receive a share of restitution favors will be by becoming Israelites.); and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion (The spiritual phase of the Kingdom, the glorified Christ, Head and Body.) shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem (The seat of the earthly phase of the Kingdom, Fleshly Israel, recovered from blindness, shall be used as a medium through which the streams of salvation, issuing from glorified, spiritual Israel shall flow to all the families of the earth.) And he will judge among the nations, and will rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” Isa 2:2-4

Thus for two reasons you could not be under the New Covenant 1) because it has not yet even gone into effect, and 2) if you were then you could not be a part of the church not only because the Church is not under that covenant, but likewise because The Christ (Head and body) are to be the mediators of that covenant. A mediator is one who stands between two parties in disagreement. The church has already been reconciled to God and therefore has no need of mediation.

 

[bbyrd009]

ah ty, i'm looking for the plate now, where is the plate, what do i owe you here lol

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Goodness, why is everyone so narrow sighted to think that the Catholics are the big bad wolf! Look deeper and wider...you have just bought the same old, same old thing that we were sold and cut our teeth on as young immature Christians...

no like for you this time.

 

[amadeus]

ah, thought that was considered cheating?

Sounds to me something like a 'spitball' in baseball.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sounds to me something like a 'spitball' in baseball.

i guess there was just a big scandal about this, a couple guys banned for life, etc.

 

[amadeus]

i guess there was just a big scandal about this, a couple guys banned for life, etc.

Either in cricket or baseball it got by me, but then I never was much of a hitter. Now I am no longer an observer, much less a follower, any more.

I guess the world of men keep moving along their own established pathways. Polishing the ball or spitting on it is not likely to change much of anything ultimately.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Ummm. Not sure I agree that we enter into a "covenant of sacrifice". When we put our faith in Christ, we enter into the New Covenant in his blood...the covenant of grace. Hebrews 9:12 tells us that his sacrifice secured for us "eternal redemption". Romans 3:24 says that such grace and redemption is a gift from God through Christ, and Eph 2:8 repeats: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not by your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

So...not a result of works. So...we cannot earn it, or prove it. It is wholly a gift, and it cannot truly be a gift, if we play some part in earning it.
But, once we have it, we must grow in it (sanctification), and be faithful in it (unto death if that is where He calls us). Those who don't grow or endure, prove that the rebirth never really happened. It's a matter of fruit.

You state: I'm not sure that's the most faithful interpretation of that passage. Now...I don't know that I believe we can say that a Rapture will happen 7 years before Jesus' return…

The foregoing statement give evidence that you are not yet “established in the truth” (2 Pet 1:12), upon this subject, that you are still unsure as to the true interpretation. It is important that our faith be founded, establish on those things which we have studied and proven by the Word of God for ourselves otherwise we leave ourselves open to false teachings (doctrines) and being blown about by every wind of doctrine (or teaching upon the subject).

Now generally we would say that this prophecy spoken by the prophet Daniel (the only direct prophecy in regards to our Lord’s first advent) would be of little importance to the believer especially to the early church, but now (at present) it becomes of vital importance. Why you ask?

We have reached the end of the age, and the thief (symbolically speaking, i.e. our Lord) has broken into the “strong man’s house” (Satan’s house) and is preparing to “plunder his goods” (his “goods” being all the various present evil and deceptive institutions of this world, both civil and religious), the Lord is about to “plunder his house”, overturn his arrangements (this “present evil world”) in order to establish a better house or kingdom, the kingdom of righteousness. However Satan realizing that his house has been violated and that shortly he is to be bound by one stronger than he is going to do everything in his power to resist and disrupt this preceding.

As it is written, the Lord’s presence (his second advent) “is to be accompanied by an energetic operation of Satan [Satanic energy and action] with ALL power, and signs, and lying delusions.” (2 Thess 2:9)

In other words these lying and deceitful wonders will be the “inventions of the spirit world, which shall usher in the most dangerous and deceptive time of the harvest here at the end of the age.”

“If the very nature of these varied wonders and miracles (lying deceptions) were understood in explicit detail in advance of their happening, then of course their deceptive influence would be severely undercut. Indeed Divine Providence has seen fit NOT to obstruct or prevent such delusions, but to allow (not sanction) them as a test upon all Christendom (both believers and nonbelievers alike) and as a means of specially exposing the worthiness or unworthiness of those professing Christianity to inherit the promises held out to footstep followers of the Master.”

“It is to be expected that we shall see the unexpected, the unexplained -- manifestations from the spirit world in support of the old order which, IF we were not well --informed, would deceive us, it will not be a time to believe the eyes and ears, but rather the promises, the Word of God (1 Cor 3:13).”

Not being properly establish in the truth concerning this prophecy (as well as that in regards to the true Antichrist) leaves one open to the Adversaries deceptions, how so you say? Well since a great majority of professed believers have already fallen for the deceptive teaching concerning a rapture of the church, a seven year tribulation and a literal antichrist what better way for the Adversary to complete his deception and attempt to thwart God’s plans than giving those who believe such things just what they want. Remember Satan is not called the Master deceiver for no reason.

In fact this is exactly what the Lord intends to permit, returning once again to our text we read:

“The coming (parousia, presence of the Lord) “is to be accompanied by an energetic operation of Satan [Satanic energy and action] with ALL power, and signs, and lying delusions, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth (all truth, but partially that dealing with these events) they did not welcome (did not accept, nor heed) that they might be saved (spared from these deceptions). And, (it is) for this reason God will send them (permit to come upon them) strong delusion, to the end that they should (or will) believe the lie (The various lying signs and wonders performed by Satan and the fallen spirits, shall be so convincing to those who preferred error and who refused to accept the truth on this subject, that they will be totally overcome by them, believing them to be the works of the Father and of his Son) This so that they all should be judged who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness (in falsehoods and errors).”

The Lord not only sends the sickle of truth to gather the wheat, but he also sends the strong delusions to gather the tares.

You state: I would say that the passage (1 Cor 15:50-52; 1 Thess 4:15-17) does talk about people, who are alive at Christ's coming, not having to experience death. Especially when we put together all Paul's teaching on that particular moment…"Sleep" is the word often used for dying or being dead, as you say.

And these passages clearly state that some of us, those alive when Jesus returns, shall not sleep. We shall be caught up in the air...after the dead have been...and given our new bodies. There is nothing here to suggest that those people must 'fall asleep' to collect those new bodies first. Indeed, the simplest reading of it tells us the opposite. Which leaves us with the conclusion that a Rapture is, indeed, biblical. The question becomes, when? Under what circumstances?

The rapture as taught by the church nominal is not only false, but a complete cop-out, a means by which some imagine they will escape the responsibility of faithfully fulfilling their consecration even unto death. Generally such individuals have never truly made a full consecration in the first place nor have they ever entered into covenant relationship with the Father.

In reply, first of all dying and death are two separate things, dying is a process and death is the end results.

The hope of each generation of the Church in early times, was, that they would be of those mentioned by Paul who would be alive when the Lord would return; that they might not be obliged to sleep in death. Nevertheless they understood that due to their covenant that they had to physically die for that was the final requirement of their covenant, viz. “Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee the crown of life.” (Rev 2:10) They had no thought of escaping physical death only that they would not have to remain in the state of death (“sleep”) for any length of time, as had those who preceded them.

“…We shall not all sleep (in the state of death), but we shall all be changed (translated to our spiritual bodies), in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead (those who sleep in Christ) will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed (at the very moment we finish our covenant “unto death”).” 1 Cor 15:51-52

“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven (at his second advent) with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ (the Church, those previously proven faithful unto death) will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left (upon the faithful completion of our covenant), will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. - 1 Thess 4:16-17

There’s no skipping out on one’s covenant here, we made the same contract with the Lord as did our brethren before us, to be found faithful unto death, nothing more, nothing less. Once a sacrifice has been laid upon the Lord’s alter it cannot be taken back, it must be totally consume, any failure to do so would be a breach of contract, and would lead to second death. You will notice the injunction of the scriptures was "unto" death, not merely "till" death. Any evasion of persecution or death is a denial of our covenant.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Actually...I disagree with you on two points. One...the bible does not call us to enter into a Covenant directly with the Father, but with the Son (and therefore with the Father, as they are one). As I said before, it is the Covenant of Grace.

The second point is: I think you are missing the point of grace and of Christ's propitiation for us. He died, so that we are free from death. Yes, the Kingdom has not yet been fully consummated while God brings more children into the Kingdom, and so death still has it's "sting". But death is not a part of the 'contract' you sign with God to prove you are serious about following him.

The "planted together in the likeness of his death" reference is talking about our union with Christ. The passage speaks of both his death and resurrection. It reasons that when we are "in Christ" we participate in his death. His death was a means of putting sin to death, releasing his followers from the power of sin and death...Christ paid the price of sin in his own death, and our being united 'in him' means we also, in a substitutionary manner, experience this without having to...well...experience this. That is why it is called the "substitutionary atonement of Christ". He died in our place, for our sins. And likewise, in his resurrection, we have assurance that once this life has passed from us, either through death or through end of the age, that we too shall share in the resurrection of life. That even now we have new life in our ability to live free from the shackles of sin and the knowledge that death cannot hold us, just as it did not hold our Lord.
This passage does not tell us that like Jesus, we too must pass through death like some sort of cultist ritual. In him, we already have.

You state: Actually...I disagree with you on two points. One...the bible does not call us to enter into a Covenant directly with the Father, but with the Son (and therefore with the Father, as they are one). As I said before, it is the Covenant of Grace.

In Reply, Psa 50: 1, 5 seems pretty clear to me, “The Mighty One [El Elohim], God the LORD [Yahweh], has spoken and called the earth from the rising of the sun to its going down... Gather My saints together to Me, those who have made a covenant with ME by sacrifice.”

In our previous post on the covenants, “we called special attention to the fact that the covenant of Christ is a covenant of sacrifice. We saw that Jesus, the great Captain and Forerunner of our salvation, entered into such a covenant with the Father--that he sacrificed his earthly life, all earthly hopes and interests, that he might become the great Prophet, Priest, King, Mediator, between God and man, and that as a reward he was highly exalted to the divine nature, necessary for him before he could accomplish the great work of blessing the world, as the spiritual Seed of Abraham.

We called special attention also to the fact that the Church's covenant, like that of her Lord, is a covenant of sacrifice. We are to walk in the Redeemer's footsteps. We are to take up the cross and follow him. We are to suffer with him if we would reign with him. We are to join with him in his covenant of sacrifice. This is the Apostle's exhortation, "I beseech you, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies living sacrifices, holy, acceptable unto God and your reasonable service."--Rom. 12:1. We sought to specially impress the great truth that only those who thus suffer with Christ, sacrificing earthly interests, will gain the great prize of the high calling.”

There’s nothing left here for speculation.

You state: The second point is: I think you are missing the point of grace and of Christ's propitiation for us. He died, so that we are free from death. Yes, the Kingdom has not yet been fully consummated while God brings more children into the Kingdom, and so death still has it's "sting". But death is not a part of the 'contract' you sign with God to prove you are serious about following him.

In Reply, although it’s true that death is not a prerequisite for the mere believer, it is however if one is to be a follower of Christ. All who have fully consecrated themselves have covenanted to be faithful until death, to follow the Lord’s example and be fully used up in the service of the Lord and the brethren to the last drop of life. If you are not willing to do this, to make this sacrifice than you can’t be a follower of Christ.

You state: The "planted together in the likeness of his death" reference is talking about our union with Christ. The passage speaks of both his death and resurrection. It reasons that when we are "in Christ" we participate in his death. His death was a means of putting sin to death, releasing his followers from the power of sin and death...Christ paid the price of sin in his own death, and our being united 'in him' means we also, in a substitutionary manner, experience this without having to...well...experience this. That is why it is called the "substitutionary atonement of Christ". He died in our place, for our sins. And likewise, in his resurrection, we have assurance that once this life has passed from us, either through death or through end of the age, that we too shall share in the resurrection of life. That even now we have new life in our ability to live free from the shackles of sin and the knowledge that death cannot hold us, just as it did not hold our Lord. This passage does not tell us that like Jesus, we too must pass through death like some sort of cultist ritual. In him, we already have.

In Reply, Those who would share in Christ future glory must likewise share in his suffering and in his baptism, be made joint participators in his death. What does this imply, how was our Lord baptized into death?

“During the three and a half years of his earthly ministry our Lord continually laid down his life in his preaching, in his journeying and in his healing of the sick, when "virtue" or life went out from him to heal them. This laying down of his life was completed at Calvary; it was only then that his baptism was finished. Note that this is our Lord's own explanation of the matter. Just before his crucifixion he said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful— even unto death. I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I straitened until it [my death-baptism] be accomplished." It was accomplished the very next day, when, on the cross, our Master cried, "It is finished" (John 19:30). What was finished? His sacrifice was finished; his baptism into death was finished.

As it is written: "I have said, Ye are gods [elohim--mighty Ones] all of you sons of the Highest -yet ye shall die like men, ye shall fall like one of the princes"--not like Prince Adam, convicts; but like Prince Jesus--participators in His death. (Psa. 82:6, 7) 'This faithfulness, this daily dying, is requisite to our making our calling and election sure; and it is to such as faithfully walk in the footsteps of the Lord that He promises the glory, honor and immortality reserved for the faithful over-comers who shall constitute the "Very Elect" members of the New Creation. Our Lord's words are, "Be thou faithful unto death. and I will give thee a crown of life."--Rev. 2:10.

The difficulty is a failure to distinguish between the doctrine of Election and what that entails and the doctrine of Free-grace, likewise when precisely these two doctrines apply that is the proper times and seasons, an election according to favor during the Gospel age, and Free and complete favor to all during the Millennial age.

So also the doctrines of Faith and Works–BELIEF as a ground of salvation, and SACRIFICE as a ground of salvation. Both are true: When we rightly divide the word of truth. As in the doctrine of Election, the harmony is seen by observing the two ages, so with this doctrine, the beauty and force can only be distinguished by recognizing the TWO SALVATIONS.

 

[Naomi25]

I will address this post first as your reply to my prior post will require more attention. As I said most emphatically in several post now, we are not Seventh Day Adventist we are Bible Students, that’s it, that’s our nomenclature, of course it’s not actually a title or anything it’s just what we and those familiar with us refer to us as. We don’t refer to ourselves by any of the sectarian names found throughout Christendom as we are not a part of any such, if we were to accept any designation it would Christians, disciples or followers of Christ plain and simple.

Nevertheless as you say because we stand for the word of God, and that only we have and even now continue to be persecuted for our stand for the truth, but this we gladly accept, the Master himself said that if any man would become his disciple he must take up his cross and follow him, and that the disciple cannot be above his Lord, and if they called the Master of the house Beelzebub, still more may it be expected they will say in regards to his inferior servants.

As for worshiping an organization, we have no organization therefore there’s none to worship.

And, you completely missed my point.
I don't particularly care what you designate yourself as. My point was that you are designating us incorrectly. Just because we choose to come under a "label" as such, does not mean that we worship that organization. That is a total misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what we believe and how we live.