What are we really dealing with here?

[Naomi25]

It is evident from this response that your knowledge of the various covenants mentioned in the scriptures is somewhat limited therefore we should probably begin with a review of some of these. A clear appreciation of the divine covenants is important and valuable to the Christian. In the knowledge of these he possesses the key to the understanding of the entire plan of God.

Wow. What an incredibly...interesting way, to tell me I know nothing. Of course, I'd beg to differ, I'd just say I understand it somewhat differently.

The first covenant (literally the first) is the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 17:1-7)

Gen. 22:16-18: “...By myself have I sworn, for because thou hast...not withheld thy son, thy only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”

It is important to note here that there are two distinct classes here that are to be ultimately bless, an earthly seed, “as the sand upon the sea shore”, and a heavenly seed, “as the stars of the heavens”

Ah...no. No there is no mention of "heavenly seed" in this verse or this covenant. The covenant promise is to multiply Abraham's seed, his earthly seed, so they will number as the stars in the heaven or the sand upon the shore. That's talking about numbers, not a "class". You're pulling that out of nowhere.

The next covenant was the “Law covenant”, Gal. 3:19, 17: “...It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise (of the first covenant) of none effect.”

The Law covenant...was an addition to the previous covenant, the Abrahamic covenant being the original had stood for four hundred and thirty years before the Law covenant was added. The Jewish nation was the only nation that was in direct covenant relationship with the Lord. “Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” Amos 3:1, 2

The Law Covenant was given ONLY to the Jewish nation and they alone were bound by it, it was NOT given to any of the Gentile nations (peoples), that is why we are in no way under the Law Covenant. Never allow any one to convince you other wise.

I agree with you here, although perhaps for different reasons. The Law was given to the Jews. Not to the Gentiles.

Gal. 4:22, 23: “...Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman (Hagar, a type of the Law Covenant) was born after the flesh; and he of the freewoman (Sarah a type of the Abrahamic Covenant) was by promise.”

Gal. 4:24,” Which things are an allegory: (symbolic, type and antitype) for these (two women) are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gave birth (bore children, fleshly Israel) to bondage (a covenant of bondage, saying you must do this or you must not do that, i.e. the Law Covenant), which is Agar (Hagar).”

Gal. 4:25, “And this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is (the earthly capital), and is in bondage with her children (under the Law).”

Gal. 4:26, “But Jerusalem which is above is free (Spiritual Zion the heavenly Jerusalem), which is the mother of us all. (Sarah, the mother of the promised seed, to which Isaac, was typical of Christ Jesus the Head and the Church his Body.)

Thus the Church is developed under the same Covenant-Mother, as was Christ. His was a Covenant of sacrifice. We will get back to this “Covenant of Sacrifice” in a little bit, but first let us look at the remainder of our scriptures.”

Gal. 4:27, “For it is written, (in Isa 54:1), Rejoice, thou barren that bears not (As Sarah was barren, so the primary, or chief, Covenant of God, the Abrahamic, was barren for a long time, until Jesus came.); break forth and cry, thou that travails not, for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.”

Gal. 4:28, “Now we, brethren, (The Apostle's argument based on the allegory, we taking the place of Isaac as the antitype)…are the children of the promise (As Isaac was the heir of Abraham and child of the promise, by Sarah, so we, like Isaac, are children of God, of the Sarah Covenant. See Gal 3:29).

Gal. 4:29,30, but as then he that was born after the flesh, (Ishmael, a type of the Jew under the Law Covenant.) persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, (by the promise, Isaac a type of The Christ.) even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman (As Hagar and her son were outcast for a time only, so the Law Covenant and the Jews have been cut off from divine favor only for a time.) and her son (When Isaac was born, Sarah repudiated Ishmael and no longer acknowledged him as her son, but, instead, claimed everything for Isaac, In antitype, when God began the development of spiritual Israel, it was clearly manifest that the chief portion of the promise was to be fulfilled through the Isaac seed, typified by the Christ, head and Body.)…for the son (Ishmael, type of the Jew under the Law.) of the bondwoman shall not be heir (shall not be the true seed, and inherited the promise) with the son of the freewoman.”

Gal. 4:31, so then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman (under the Law Covenant), but of the free (Sarah, type of the Abrahamic Covenant, the Grace Covenant, the Covenant of sacrifice.).” So in essence these last three are all related to the same thing.

I must brake here due to character limits, but I will cover the Covenant of Sacrifice and the New Covenant in my next post.

I think at this stage, before we go any further, I need to find out what you mean by "covenant of sacrifice". Do you mean Christ's sacrifice? Or are you talking about a sacrifice of our lives to God? Because one of those the Bible talks about specifically in terms of the new Covenant, and the other is only the outworking of the New Covenant. And that is a fairly significant difference.

 

[Naomi25]

The question now is what is this “Covenant of Sacrifice” that the true followers of Christ are supposed to be under?

Where is it mentioned in the scriptures, and what are its requirements?
The call to sacrifice, “Gather my saints together to me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.” Psa 50:5

The Apostle Paul likewise mentions this covenant (although not by name), and its requirements when in Rom 12:1 speaking to the brethren he exhorts:

This Psalm is interesting, isn't it. Because it does speak of 'covenant', but we do not see, any time before it, when such a "covenant of sacrifice" was specifically instigated. This is widely believed to be because this 'covenant of sacrifice' that God speaks of is not favors that people bestow upon God, or rituals that we must complete in order to survive. Rather, this 'covenant of sacrifice' is a heartfelt response from every Christian, of gratitude and love, for God; for who he is and what he has done for his people. This covenant applies to people in both OT and NT, under the covenant of Law or Grace. God desires attitudes of thanksgiving...not ritual.
This is clearly in mind in Rom 12:1 as well. Are we saved by offering our bodies to God as "living sacrifices"? No. Clearly that will not do. The bible tells us salvation only comes through faith in Jesus' salvific work on the cross. The implication then is clear: our offer of ourselves comes in response to the gift of salvation. If regeneration is true, then offering ourselves up as living sacrifices out of gratitude and love, and yes...obedience, is the next step in sanctification.

Not all believers have responded to this call or invitation. The great majority have simply been satisfied being reconciled to God through faith in Christ, and as such have ignored Paul's exhortation. They believe in Christ and in the assurance of their salvation and that good enough for them, they have no desire for anything else least of all to sacrifice.

God demands that all of his creatures shall approve of righteousness and hate iniquity, but he does not demand that any should sacrifice their lives in his service, nor for any other cause. Sacrifice is a voluntary act and not demanded by the law.

However you cannot become a member of the Body of Christ unless you do sacrifice. The requirements regarding discipleship (a follower) of Christ are that we take up our cross and follow in the Masters footsteps that if we would obtain the reward (the heavenly calling) for which we are called we must be willing to tread the same path as he did, to enter the narrow way that leads to self-denial and sacrifice.

As with our Lord this begins with a full consecration or surrender of one’s self to the will of God. The moment we consecrate ourselves fully to the Father and upon his acceptance we enter into covenant arrangement with the Lord, a “covenant by sacrifice”. This covenant once entered is binding there’s no turning back, this is why we are admonished by the Lord that we “count the cost” first before taking this step. It is at this point that we are baptized (made participators) in Christ death, that is “being made conformable to his death” (Rom 6:3; Phil 3:10) we willingly laid down all our earthly rights and privileges as human beings, including our restitution (life) rights reckoned ours at the moment when we were fully justified.

Yeah, see... you had me for most of that. I agree that it is not a necessary act for salvation (although it should be considered an appropriate response to it!). And I'd even say that a high degree of self sacrifice was necessary for growth and function within the Body...for many different reasons. And...if you want to see that as making a certain pledge, fine. But this idea of it being an actual "covenant".... I don't see that in scripture. Not in terms of the other covenants. It's not taught that way at all. If you are just using the term covenant to express how you think a Christian should dedicate themselves to God, that's fine. But other than that, I believe you are building a doctrine on something that does not call for it. And that is a dangerous thing to do. We know the Pharisees did similar things, pulled out tiny things from scripture and made their own important rules based on them. The bible does not teach that there is a "Covenant of sacrifice" that one must enter into to join the Body of Christ. It's not there. So, either you need to get more specific about you are saying, so I don't misunderstand you, or else you are reading scripture incorrectly.

Having been counted in as a member of his body, our Lord (the Christ as a whole) has been dying now for a little over 2000 years. Sharing in the sufferings of Christ, we “fill up that which remains of the afflictions of Christ”.

None are saints without sacrifice. Rev 11:18 makes this abundantly clear by distinguishing between those who fear God's name (believers in general) and the Saints (the sanctified in Christ Jesus).

“To render all we have to the Lord’s service is not only a reasonable thing, but an offering far too small, far less than we would like to render to him who has manifested such compassion and grace toward us. And we should feel thus, even if there were no rewards and blessings we should feel not only that a refusal to accept would be an indication also of weakness of mind, of judgment, which is unable to balance the trifling and transitory pleasures of self-will for a few short years, with an eternity of joy and blessing and glory, in harmony with the Lord.”

Again: there's a big difference between the very real expectation of hardship and tribulation this life will hand us because we are followers of Christ, and the Bible teaching this is a Covenantal expectation that we must enter into.

 

[Naomi25]

Now to our last covenant, the “New Covenant”

“The New Covenant, was represented in Abraham’s family by a woman, for after the death of Sarah, Abraham married again, his wife’s name being Keturah; and by her we are told that he had...sons... whereas there was but one son by Hagar, and one by Sarah. The intimation thus clearly is that under the New Covenant God will bring many into the relationship of sons, as it is written of Abraham, who typified God, “I have constituted thee a father of many nations.” Gen. 17:4”

“This New Covenant is to be made with Israel alone; for God never purposed to make a covenant with the Gentiles,

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke (the Law covenant), although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jer 31:31-34

After Israel shall have been fully established under their New Covenant, all other nations will be privileged to come into this relationship after the manner set forth in the Law. The entire world will eventually be blessed thereby. That is to say that all the future blessing to come to the world will come to them once they too come under the requirements set forth in the Kingdom, but the blessings come first to Israel, as the Apostle Paul says, “…it is to the Jew first, and also the Greek.”

And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mount (Messiah's Kingdom, represented on earth by Israel, as the divine channel of blessing,) of the LORD'S house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it (The New covenant will be inaugurated with natural Israel and gradually the whole world will become attached to Israel as part of Abraham's earthly seed.). And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob (The New covenant will be made only with Israel. The only way other nations can receive a share of restitution favors will be by becoming Israelites.); and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion (The spiritual phase of the Kingdom, the glorified Christ, Head and Body.) shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem (The seat of the earthly phase of the Kingdom, Fleshly Israel, recovered from blindness, shall be used as a medium through which the streams of salvation, issuing from glorified, spiritual Israel shall flow to all the families of the earth.) And he will judge among the nations, and will rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” Isa 2:2-4

Thus for two reasons you could not be under the New Covenant 1) because it has not yet even gone into effect, and 2) if you were then you could not be a part of the church not only because the Church is not under that covenant, but likewise because The Christ (Head and body) are to be the mediators of that covenant. A mediator is one who stands between two parties in disagreement. The church has already been reconciled to God and therefore has no need of mediation.

And.... now we're just not seeing eye to eye at all. Tell me this: if the New Covenant has not come to the Gentiles yet, why was Paul taking it to them? (1 Cor 11:25, 2 Cor 3:6).
Plus, let us consider for a moment.
The New Covenant is made in Jesus blood: And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. - Luke 22: 20
Jesus then commands his disciples to take the news of this Covenant, the good new of the Kingdom, out: But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” - Acts 1: 8

Then we see that God sends Peter to the house of Cornelius, a Gentile, where Peter preaches:
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), ... 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. - Acts 10:34-45

Now... I ask you. What IS the New Covenant, other than the forgiveness of sins (I will remember their sins no more) through the work of Christ (this is the new covenant in my blood)?

 

[Naomi25]

You state: Actually...I disagree with you on two points. One...the bible does not call us to enter into a Covenant directly with the Father, but with the Son (and therefore with the Father, as they are one). As I said before, it is the Covenant of Grace.

In Reply, Psa 50: 1, 5 seems pretty clear to me, “The Mighty One [El Elohim], God the LORD [Yahweh], has spoken and called the earth from the rising of the sun to its going down... Gather My saints together to Me, those who have made a covenant with ME by sacrifice.”

In our previous post on the covenants, “we called special attention to the fact that the covenant of Christ is a covenant of sacrifice. We saw that Jesus, the great Captain and Forerunner of our salvation, entered into such a covenant with the Father--that he sacrificed his earthly life, all earthly hopes and interests, that he might become the great Prophet, Priest, King, Mediator, between God and man, and that as a reward he was highly exalted to the divine nature, necessary for him before he could accomplish the great work of blessing the world, as the spiritual Seed of Abraham.

We called special attention also to the fact that the Church's covenant, like that of her Lord, is a covenant of sacrifice. We are to walk in the Redeemer's footsteps. We are to take up the cross and follow him. We are to suffer with him if we would reign with him. We are to join with him in his covenant of sacrifice. This is the Apostle's exhortation, "I beseech you, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies living sacrifices, holy, acceptable unto God and your reasonable service."--Rom. 12:1. We sought to specially impress the great truth that only those who thus suffer with Christ, sacrificing earthly interests, will gain the great prize of the high calling.”

There’s nothing left here for speculation.

Oh my yes, much speculation. But...read my posts that I just put up, they give you my replies on this "covenant of sacrifice". No point going over it again.

You state: The second point is: I think you are missing the point of grace and of Christ's propitiation for us. He died, so that we are free from death. Yes, the Kingdom has not yet been fully consummated while God brings more children into the Kingdom, and so death still has it's "sting". But death is not a part of the 'contract' you sign with God to prove you are serious about following him.

In Reply, although it’s true that death is not a prerequisite for the mere believer, it is however if one is to be a follower of Christ. All who have fully consecrated themselves have covenanted to be faithful until death, to follow the Lord’s example and be fully used up in the service of the Lord and the brethren to the last drop of life. If you are not willing to do this, to make this sacrifice than you can’t be a follower of Christ.

You're still missing the point totally. It's different, isn't it, to be willing to die for something, if you need to, and having to die for you to gain it in the first place. You are putting too much emphasis on the need to die for Christ. And his death was so we didn't need to. It was to rescue us from that. Why would the bible make such a show of saying that the final enemy Christ will defeat is death..."where, o' death, is your victory, where o'death, is your sting?" if we must all line up and embrace it just as we embrace Christ? No! As Christians we say that everything is worth giving up for Jesus...even our lives if needed, but in truth? Death is but one more foe who is already defeated and doesn't realise it yet.

You state: The "planted together in the likeness of his death" reference is talking about our union with Christ. The passage speaks of both his death and resurrection. It reasons that when we are "in Christ" we participate in his death. His death was a means of putting sin to death, releasing his followers from the power of sin and death...Christ paid the price of sin in his own death, and our being united 'in him' means we also, in a substitutionary manner, experience this without having to...well...experience this. That is why it is called the "substitutionary atonement of Christ". He died in our place, for our sins. And likewise, in his resurrection, we have assurance that once this life has passed from us, either through death or through end of the age, that we too shall share in the resurrection of life. That even now we have new life in our ability to live free from the shackles of sin and the knowledge that death cannot hold us, just as it did not hold our Lord. This passage does not tell us that like Jesus, we too must pass through death like some sort of cultist ritual. In him, we already have.

In Reply, Those who would share in Christ future glory must likewise share in his suffering and in his baptism, be made joint participators in his death. What does this imply, how was our Lord baptized into death?

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! The whole point of Jesus dying on the cross, was that it was in our place!! You know...so that we didn't have to as well? Golly...this is why they call it good news! When we put our faith in him, a transaction takes place on a spiritual level. His perfect life is placed in our 'account', while our sinful ones were placed in his...on his shoulders while he hung on that cross for us. That is why when God looks at us, he sees no sin, no life that needs to pass through death to be redeemed. The only...hear me...only reason a Christian may die for their faith, is because this world is still fallen and death, the final enemy will not be defeated until God calls time on it and wraps the sky up like a scroll. Since the world and most of it's inhabitants are fallen and hostile towards us, we are persecuted, just as our Lord was. We accept this, and persevere...how can we not? But death, if it comes, is not a prerequisite for gaining access to Jesus and his work to save us.

“During the three and a half years of his earthly ministry our Lord continually laid down his life in his preaching, in his journeying and in his healing of the sick, when "virtue" or life went out from him to heal them. This laying down of his life was completed at Calvary; it was only then that his baptism was finished. Note that this is our Lord's own explanation of the matter. Just before his crucifixion he said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful— even unto death. I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I straitened until it [my death-baptism] be accomplished." It was accomplished the very next day, when, on the cross, our Master cried, "It is finished" (John 19:30). What was finished? His sacrifice was finished; his baptism into death was finished.

As it is written: "I have said, Ye are gods [elohim--mighty Ones] all of you sons of the Highest -yet ye shall die like men, ye shall fall like one of the princes"--not like Prince Adam, convicts; but like Prince Jesus--participators in His death. (Psa. 82:6, 7) 'This faithfulness, this daily dying, is requisite to our making our calling and election sure; and it is to such as faithfully walk in the footsteps of the Lord that He promises the glory, honor and immortality reserved for the faithful over-comers who shall constitute the "Very Elect" members of the New Creation. Our Lord's words are, "Be thou faithful unto death. and I will give thee a crown of life."--Rev. 2:10.

The difficulty is a failure to distinguish between the doctrine of Election and what that entails and the doctrine of Free-grace, likewise when precisely these two doctrines apply that is the proper times and seasons, an election according to favor during the Gospel age, and Free and complete favor to all during the Millennial age.

So also the doctrines of Faith and Works–BELIEF as a ground of salvation, and SACRIFICE as a ground of salvation. Both are true: When we rightly divide the word of truth. As in the doctrine of Election, the harmony is seen by observing the two ages, so with this doctrine, the beauty and force can only be distinguished by recognizing the TWO SALVATIONS.

Nope, sorry. "Sacrifice as a grounds for salvation"....is something that you must do. Which means it is works based. If I do this, then God will give me that. The bible is exceedingly clear that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, through his work on the cross alone. The end. Anything that comes after that falls into the category of sanctification and the Christian walk, NOT salvation.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Wow. What an incredibly...interesting way, to tell me I know nothing. Of course, I'd beg to differ, I'd just say I understand it somewhat differently.

We didn’t mean to imply that you knew nothing, only that from what we have gathered thus far it is apparent that your understanding of the various covenants is deficient.

Ah...no. No there is no mention of "heavenly seed" in this verse or this covenant. The covenant promise is to multiply Abraham's seed, his earthly seed, so they will number as the stars in the heaven or the sand upon the shore. That's talking about numbers, not a "class". You're pulling that out of nowhere.

If you had truly studied the issue I believe you would find that it’s “pulled” directly from the scriptures.

An appreciation of the two phases of the kingdom, those called to a heavenly inheritance presently and those who will be called to an earthly inheritance in the next age is a prerequisite to a proper understanding of our text (Gen 22:16-18).

Here God used two symbols to describe the promised seed of Abraham, sand and stars. It appears to be no coincidence that one of these elements is found on earth and the other in the heavens—the sand of the seashore and the stars of the heavens. One of these seeds, the spiritual (or heavenly), is identified as Jesus Christ and his Church in two verses in the book of Galatians.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ."—Gal 3:16

"And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."—Gal 3:29

There is just a suggestion as to who the earthly seed will be in Gen 12:3— "I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses’ you I will curse; and by you (or “in you”) shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”

We understand that this is in reference to Israel. Israel itself only needed God's one vote to be considered the "elect" of God. "As touching the election, they [Israel] are beloved for the fathers' sakes" (Rom 11:28). What purpose does God's election of Israel serve? To the first father of Israel, Abraham, was given the promise, "In blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is upon the sea shore…In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Gen. 22:18). Passed down to Isaac, then Jacob and then his twelve sons the nation of Israel inherited this special choosing of God. "O children of Israel...you only have I known of all the families of the earth..." (Amos 3:1, 2) This election of Israel meant not only special care by God, but also special responsibility and therefore special chastisements through history.

What is not generally comprehended is that the choosing of the seed of Abraham was not just for the blessing of the seed of Abraham. The selected "seed" was and is to "bless all the families of the earth." In other words, Israel was elected to be an instrument of blessing to the non-elect!

To say Israel had lost their chance to be the blesser of nations by not accepting Jesus Christ is to ignore the Apostle Paul's powerful discourse in Romans 11. Yes, "the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Verse 7). Only a few accepted the call to become Christians, but Paul concludes that this blindness would only last until the Church was complete, "Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Verse 25). After that time, "Thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, the Deliverer will come from Zion, and he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Verse 25, 26)

What is also not appreciated generally is just who is this chosen, elected "seed"? The promise is that the seed would be as the "stars of heaven" as well as the "sands of the seashore." The elect seed would be both spiritual and earthly. Most Christians usually only see half of the promise, that is in regards to the heavenly seed (with others like yourself apparently only the earthly seed). But the spiritual "seed" is to work together with the earthly "seed" to bless all the families of the earth. The Christian elect (the spiritual seed, Zion) will work through the earthly elect (the earthly seed, Israel) to bless all the nations.

“Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.” For out of Zion (the spiritual phase of the kingdom) shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem (the earthly phase of the kingdom).” Isaiah 2:2, 3

God's promises concerning the two seeds, those whom He elects are not an exaggeration!

I agree with you here, although perhaps for different reasons. The Law was given to the Jews. Not to the Gentiles.

Ah! Something we agree on, who would have guessed?

I think at this stage, before we go any further, I need to find out what you mean by "covenant of sacrifice". Do you mean Christ's sacrifice? Or are you talking about a sacrifice of our lives to God? Because one of those the Bible talks about specifically in terms of the new Covenant, and the other is only the outworking of the New Covenant. And that is a fairly significant difference.

In essence it is Christ’s sacrifice (NOT the ransom sacrifice itself, the one sacrifice once for all, mind you), but Christ’s covenant of sacrifice. All who would are privileged to join Christ in this same covenant, a “covenant by sacrifice”, that they may be joint sacrificers with their Lord, permitted to consecrate their justified lives (justified through faith) as sacrifices in the Lord's service--joint-sacrificers with their Lord, in whose foot-steps they are called to follow. These, in their consecration, are reckoned as dying to the human nature entirely, and their new minds are reckoned as having been transformed, as being no longer human minds or wills, but spiritual minds or wills--"We have the mind of Christ." This will, still exercised through a human body, is by the Lord and by his children accounted as the beginning of the new nature, the nucleus or new will of the "new creature."

“It was Jehovah's purpose to have a prepared company to be associated with His Son in His great work for the restoration of the world. This class is called the Bride of Christ, the members of His Body. As they were sinners, under the same death penalty as the remainder of the world, it was necessary that the merit of Christ's sacrificial death be first utilized for them. Instead of being justified actually, as will the world during the Age to come, these have perfect righteousness imputed to them instantaneously, when they accept Christ's sacrificial work on their behalf AND consecrate themselves wholly to God. Thus they are enabled to become joint-sacrificers with their Lord and Head that they may be sharers in His future Reign.”

Most believers have taken the first step and have accepted of the sacrificial work of Christ on their behalf, but few have gone on and taken the second step of fully consecrating themselves and joining their Lord in sacrifice.

The Church is now called to a "heavenly calling" under the Abrahamic Covenant--to the members of the Body of Christ, who, with Jesus her Head, will constitute the Mediator of the New Covenant. The Church is "not under Law, but under grace," not judged according to the flesh and earthly restitution, but judged according to the heart and intention; and required to sacrifice restitution rights to the attainment of "the high calling" life and glory on the spirit plane as members of the Mediator of the New Covenant.

Get this in your mind clearly, the Church is not under the New Covenant, nor will they ever be, instead they are being prepared as priest to be the go-between, the Mediator of the New Covenant between God and mankind.

There could be no covenant without Christ and the Church, because it is the blood of Christ that constitutes the sealing value of the new covenant. That new covenant must be sealed, and it is to be sealed by the blood of Christ. While the ransom feature is all in the Lord Jesus and his death, yet the Church is counted in as his Body, and the blood of the whole Church is counted in as a part of that blood that will seal the new covenant, or make it operative.

Since it is self-evident that the Church is not yet complete, it is evident that the New Covenant has not yet been sealed, and therefore has not been made active nor applicable to any.

 

[Harvest 1874]

This Psalm is interesting, isn't it. Because it does speak of 'covenant', but we do not see, any time before it, when such a "covenant of sacrifice" was specifically instigated. This is widely believed to be because this 'covenant of sacrifice' that God speaks of is not favors that people bestow upon God, or rituals that we must complete in order to survive. Rather, this 'covenant of sacrifice' is a heartfelt response from every Christian, of gratitude and love, for God; for who he is and what he has done for his people. This covenant applies to people in both OT and NT, under the covenant of Law or Grace. God desires attitudes of thanksgiving...not ritual.
This is clearly in mind in Rom 12:1 as well. Are we saved by offering our bodies to God as "living sacrifices"? No. Clearly that will not do. The bible tells us salvation only comes through faith in Jesus' salvific work on the cross. The implication then is clear: our offer of ourselves comes in response to the gift of salvation. If regeneration is true, then offering ourselves up as living sacrifices out of gratitude and love, and yes...obedience, is the next step in sanctification.

You state: This Psalm is interesting, isn't it? Because it does speak of 'covenant', but we do not see, any time before it, when such a "covenant of sacrifice" was specifically instigated.

In Reply, Actually a type of this covenant was shown when Abraham offered up his son Isaac in sacrifice, in offering up his son to the Lord, Abraham was entering into covenant with God.

You state: This is widely believed to be because this 'covenant of sacrifice' that God speaks of is not favors that people bestow upon God, or rituals that we must complete in order to survive. Rather, this 'covenant of sacrifice' is a heartfelt response from every Christian, of gratitude and love, for God; for who he is and what he has done for his people.

In Reply, we agree with part of this statement but not all of it. Yes it’s true that after one has taken the time to truly appreciate all that the Lord has done for them in regards to their salvation and reconciliation with himself that they (some) cannot but be filled with such gratitude and love for God that they wonder what they might do in appreciation for this unmerited kindness. This reciprocation (sacrifice) on the part of the individual is not something one renders to God in order to insure their salvation, (or as you put it their survival) that has already been accomplished through Christ.

You state: This covenant applies to people in both OT and NT, under the covenant of Law or Grace. God desires attitudes of thanksgiving...not ritual.

In Reply, actually the privilege of joining in this covenant, a covenant by sacrifice was only first made applicable following our Lord having made this covenant first, and this he made when at the river Jordan he fully consecrated himself to the Father, agreeing to fulfill all that was required of him in respects to the Fathers great plan of the ages. No one preceded the Lord in this covenant of sacrifice because no one was ever proven worthy of being accepted as such a sacrifice. Our worthiness to participate in this covenant comes only by means of our first having received of the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and our being joined to the body.

Consecration to righteousness (to right living) has always been required of all God’s creature from ages past to the future to be, but never before and never again will sacrifice be required of any. "Behold, now is the accepted time (for sacrifices); behold, now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor 6:2; Isa 49:8

"Now," or the accepted time, did not commence until the Gospel Age began, at Pentecost; or rather in the fullest sense it began with Jesus' sacrifice, dating from his consecration at baptism. The sacrifice of Christ, which actually takes away sin, was THE ACCEPTABLE sacrifice; and it must be an accomplished fact, before any of the condemned sinners could be actually legally justified, so as to be ACCEPTED as joint sacrificers and joint heirs with him.

Though justified thus by faith in Christ's redemptive work, none of those justified in this age have been permitted to reach actual restitution to human perfection, that being the privilege not of this the Gospel Age, but of the coming Millennial Age. But that right to human perfection and lasting life, having been secured for all, those who now by faith accept it, are reckoned as now possessing that perfection--as though now perfect men. Such during the Gospel Age have been invited to present themselves as living SACRIFICES to be used up in God's service (Rom 12:1), and the assurance is given that whoever thus sacrifices "NOW" during the acceptable time, is accepted of God, and shall in due time receive the reward of the crown, the throne, and the divine nature, as joint-heirs with Jesus Christ whose example they thus follow--AFTER being justified by faith in his sacrifice for their sins.

Those who before the death of Jesus our ransom, trusted in God's promises, and walked in obedience to God, were not actually justified until the only sacrifice, which could take away sin, was actually offered. Nevertheless their faith shall receive a reward in the times of restitution. But living before the "acceptable" time, they were not informed of the "high-calling" of the divine nature and joint-heirship, and therefore were not invited to thus offer themselves as members of the body of Christ and joint-sacrificers with him. "Behold now [the Gospel Age] is the accepted (or receivable) time (for sacrifice); behold now is a day of salvation, (THE day of [the "great"] salvation)."

You state: Are we saved by offering our bodies to God as "living sacrifices"? No. Clearly that will not do. The bible tells us salvation only comes through faith in Jesus' salvific work on the cross.

In Reply, It is evident here that you seem to think we are implying that our becoming joint sacrifices with our Lord somehow applies to our salvation, if this is the case you are clearly mistaken. Our becoming joint sacrificers with our Lord neither applies to nor adds in any way to the all sufficiency of Christ’ sacrifice once for all.

“The invitation to each prospective member of the body of Christ is, that after having been justified by faith through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, he should sacrifice his all, and thus be reckoned a joint-sacrificer with the great Redeemer, as having fellowship with Him in His sufferings, that he might also share in His glory. (Rom. 8:17) This is the particular feature of this Gospel Age: it is the Age of sacrifice and self-denial as respects all earthly blessings and privileges and advantages. And the object or hope inspiring to such sacrifices of present things is that all such shall be made partakers of far greater riches of glory, honor, immortality, and eternal life in the Kingdom. While our sacrifice is no part of the ransom price, it is a filling up of "that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ for his body's sake." (Col. 1:24) Our sacrifice would avail nothing were it not for Christ's sacrifice and the sweet odor of his personal merit ascending to God with our prayers for a share in his meritorious covering.

Some may ask, what has the Church to do with the Sin-offering?

The Church has nothing to do with the Sin-offering, as a Church. It is the Lord Jesus who is the responsible One in the whole matter. In the type it was not the under priests that did the offering, but the high priest. So it was the Lord Jesus that offered up Himself. He offers us up as members of His body, but He does not do this contrary to our wills. We desire that He will offer us up as parts of Himself, that we may thus have a share in "the sufferings of Christ and the glory that shall follow." It is His merit alone that gives virtue to our sacrifice.

The whole responsibility, therefore, is in the hands of the great High Priest, our Lord. We share with Him in the world's Sin-offering, as His members. We participate in the sufferings which are counted as His sufferings. You and I could not atone for sins by our sufferings--either for our own sins or for those of others. That is all in the Lord's hands.

You state: The implication then is clear: our offer of ourselves comes in response to the gift of salvation. If regeneration is true, then offering ourselves up as living sacrifices out of gratitude and love, and yes...obedience, is the next step in sanctification.

In Reply, here you have just about grasps the true idea, only after we have accepted the gift of salvation and the forgiveness of sins are we in the condition in which we may offer an acceptable sacrifice upon the Lord’s altar. The next step is indeed sanctification (the setting apart) of ourselves to God and to his will in full consecration.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Yeah, see... you had me for most of that. I agree that it is not a necessary act for salvation (although it should be considered an appropriate response to it!). And I'd even say that a high degree of self sacrifice was necessary for growth and function within the Body...for many different reasons. And...if you want to see that as making a certain pledge, fine. But this idea of it being an actual "covenant".... I don't see that in scripture. Not in terms of the other covenants. It's not taught that way at all. If you are just using the term covenant to express how you think a Christian should dedicate themselves to God, that's fine. But other than that, I believe you are building a doctrine on something that does not call for it. And that is a dangerous thing to do. We know the Pharisees did similar things, pulled out tiny things from scripture and made their own important rules based on them. The bible does not teach that there is a "Covenant of sacrifice" that one must enter into to join the Body of Christ. It's not there. So, either you need to get more specific about you are saying, so I don't misunderstand you, or else you are reading scripture incorrectly.

Again: there's a big difference between the very real expectation of hardship and tribulation this life will hand us because we are followers of Christ, and the Bible teaching this is a Covenantal expectation that we must enter into.

You state: Yeah, see... you had me for most of that. I agree that it is not a necessary act for salvation (although it should be considered an appropriate response to it!). And I'd even say that a high degree of self-sacrifice was necessary for growth and function within the Body...for many different reasons. And if you want to see that as making a certain pledge, fine. But this idea of it being an actual "covenant".... I don't see that in scripture. Not in terms of the other covenants. It's not taught that way at all.

In Reply, then you have failed to grasps this truth.

“An actual covenant relationship is one that is fully established--not merely suggested, or proposed, but accomplished. As Israel approached Mt. Sinai, God proposed to make a covenant with them. When all was in readiness, the Covenant was made through Moses as the mediator. The work of mediation was twofold; the first part was the sprinkling of the Law, representing the satisfaction of Justice; the second part was the sprinkling of the people, representing the bringing of the people into covenant relationship with God. That Covenant was then fully made, and has remained in operation ever since. -- Exod. 24:3-8

The Abrahamic Covenant, as it was given to Abraham, is a complete covenant, whose provisions include all mankind; for it reads, "In thee and in thy Seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed." (Gen. 12:3; 28:14.) Its promise is to THE SEED: (1) Jesus; (2) The Christ, Head and Body; (3) the earthly seed through them. Its provisions extend to all who have the faith of Abraham. The promise of God was that a blessing shall come to all the families of the earth. This promise was confirmed by an oath on the part of God, so that by two immutable things--the oath and the promise of God--the heirs of the promise may be sure of its fulfilment.--Heb. 6:13-18.

The Seed of Abraham, which is to bless all the families of the earth, was intended to be a Spiritual Seed. Since Abraham and his posterity were natural men, the only way by which they could become the Spiritual Seed was by the sacrifice of the earthly nature and the attaining to the spirit nature. The opportunity for making this sacrifice was first given to our Lord Jesus. By carrying out His covenant of sacrifice, He became the Head of the Seed which is to bring the blessing.--Psa. 50:5; 40:7-10.

During the Gospel Age, Jehovah has been selecting the members of this Spiritual Seed that they may lay down their human life and earthly interests in order to attain to the spirit nature. The selection of this Seed has been the work of the Gospel Age. Soon the Seed will be all gathered; then the work of blessing the natural seed will begin, and through them the blessing will subsequently spread to all nations, as these shall accept the Divine favor.

The Church will always be in covenant relationship with the Father. The fact that He calls them sons implies that they are bound to Him. (John 1:12.) Every father is in covenant relationship with his children, and they with him. Every child has a responsibility to its father, and the father to the child. The fact that God has received the Lord Jesus and the Church as sons (Heb. 3:6) signifies that they are in covenant relationship with Him. The Apostle Paul says, "We are the children of God; and if children, then heirs." (Rom. 8:16, 17.) His statement not only implies that relationship, but proves it; for the sons have a right to the things which the father has provided for his children.

All who hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt. 5:6), all whose souls long for God "as the hart pants after the water brook" (Psa. 42:1), and who, having found Him, have consecrated themselves to Him--these have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, witnessing with their spirit that they are sons of God. (Rom. 8:14-16.) As anointed sons these can discover in themselves the worthy traits of true sons--loyalty, zeal, energy, discretion, faithfulness, obedience.

There are, however, conditions attached to this covenant of sacrifice; there are certain requirements which must be fulfilled. All must become partakers of the sufferings of Christ, if they would participate with Him in the glories to follow (and this begins with following in the Master’s footsteps by entering into the same covenant as he did with the Father, a “covenant by sacrifice” Psa 50:5; Rom 12:1). But the arrangements for keeping our contract are complete in Christ. Therefore if we put ourselves under His care, this covenant will be everlasting with us, and we shall have "the sure mercies of David."-- Isa. 55:3. (R5163)

You state: If you are just using the term covenant to express how you think a Christian should dedicate themselves to God, that's fine. But other than that, I believe you are building a doctrine on something that does not call for it. And that is a dangerous thing to do. We know the Pharisees did similar things, pulled out tiny things from scripture and made their own important rules based on them. The bible does not teach that there is a "Covenant of sacrifice" that one must enter into to join the Body of Christ. It's not there. So, either you need to get more specific about you are saying, so I don't misunderstand you, or else you are reading scripture incorrectly.

In Reply, I’m sorry that it is hidden from you; nevertheless it is fully taught in the Leviticus types, you might try giving them a study some time. As the Apostle Paul stated the Tabernacle with its various services, ceremonies and etc. are a shadow or representation of the heavenly things, of the Divine Plan itself showing not only the means by which one may be joined to the body of Christ, made a joint sacrifice with their Lord, (participate in the sin-offering), but likewise how such will bless the world in the age to come. (Heb 8:5; 9:23)

 

[Harvest 1874]

Again: there's a big difference between the very real expectation of hardship and tribulation this life will hand us because we are followers of Christ, and the Bible teaching this is a Covenantal expectation that we must enter into.

There is a distinctive difference between the true followers of Christ and the nominal professors. The Lord’s declaration is that all who would follow Him must, like Him, be willing to take up their cross and walk in His steps, to be baptized with the same baptism that He was baptized with, and to drink with Him of His cup. This implies much more than a mere professing of faith.

There are many believers who imagine themselves persecuted, that they are enduring hardship for Christ when in fact their persecutions are of their own imaginings and of their own making these are not sufferings for Christ sake. Many of these imagine they suffer because they are restrained from indulging in many of the illicit activities which the rest of the world partakes. Restraining oneself from sin is not sacrifice, suffering for Christ; this is a requirement of all mankind regardless of their faith. Some are busy bodies meddling in the affairs of this world, imagining it their responsibility to impose the dictates of Christ upon the world forgetting that as sinners, men "are not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can they be." (Rom. 8:7), nevertheless they vainly attempt to usher in the kingdom of God by force and in so doing they incur the wrath of men, and thus suffer tribulation.

But, "If any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God." (1 Pet. 4:16)

Any sufferings (tribulations) that we have because of our membership in the body of Christ are a part of the sufferings of Christ.

The world suffers, but this is not suffering for Christ, nominal believers suffer, but this is not suffering for Christ, only those who have been joined to the body, the fully consecrated who then endure sufferings, tribulations, suffer for Christ.

Every member of "the Church of the first-born" was called "to suffer with Christ" that he may be also later glorified with him in the Millennial Kingdom. Only those who will stand the test of faithfulness under sufferings, trials, crosses, self-sacrifices have the promise of sharing with Christ the glories of the Church Triumphant. "If we be dead with him, we shall also live with him; if we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us." (2 Tim 2:11, 12.)

 

[Harvest 1874]

And.... now we're just not seeing eye to eye at all. Tell me this: if the New Covenant has not come to the Gentiles yet, why was Paul taking it to them? (1 Cor 11:25, 2 Cor 3:6).
Plus, let us consider for a moment.
The New Covenant is made in Jesus blood: And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. - Luke 22: 20
Jesus then commands his disciples to take the news of this Covenant, the good new of the Kingdom, out: But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” - Acts 1: 8

Then we see that God sends Peter to the house of Cornelius, a Gentile, where Peter preaches:
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), ... 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. - Acts 10:34-45

Now... I ask you. What IS the New Covenant, other than the forgiveness of sins (I will remember their sins no more) through the work of Christ (this is the new covenant in my blood)?

You state: And.... now we're just not seeing eye to eye at all. Tell me this: if the New Covenant has not come to the Gentiles yet, why was Paul taking it to them? (1 Cor 11:25, 2 Cor 3:6).

In Reply, you are reading into these verses that which is not intended. Let us take a look at the scriptures you believe support your position.

“In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 1 Cor 11:25

It is by the giving up of his life as a ransom for the life of the Adamic race, which sin had forfeited, that a right to LIFE comes to men. (Rom. 5:18, 19) Jesus’ shed blood was the “ransom for ALL,” but his act of handing the cup to the disciples, and asking them to drink of it, was an invitation to them to become partakers of his sufferings, or, as Paul expresses it, to “fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ.” (Col. 1:24) “The cup of blessing, for which we bless God, is it not a participation of the blood [shed blood—death] of the Anointed one?” (1 Cor. 10:16—Diaglott) Would that all could realize the value of the cup, and could bless God for an opportunity, sharing it with Christ that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 8:17) Jesus attaches this significance to the cup elsewhere, indicating that it is the cup of sacrifice, the death of our humanity.

“When our Lord set before his disciples the first Memorial Supper he declared of the cup, "This is the blood of the New Testament, shed for many for the remission of sins." Notice that the blood of the New Covenant was shed for the many, the world of mankind; but only a few, the "little flock," the disciples, "the Body of Christ," were invited to drink of it, to participate with him in that cup.

For over 2000 years that cup has been passed to all of the consecrated. Those who drink of it have the promise that they shall share with their Lord and Head in all of his great work as the Seed of Abraham. Thus our Lord said to his disciples who asked to sit on his Throne, "Are ye able to drink of the cup that I drink of, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" (Mark 10:38.) Will you carry out fully the covenant of consecration to death which you made and on account of which you are reckoned as members of my Body? If this is your will, I will test you, to make your calling and election sure.

Those to whom it is given to know the "Mystery" of the Kingdom of God (and no others) may see that this entire Gospel Age, from the time of our Lord's baptism at Jordan to the present time and to the completion of the Church, is the one great Day of Atonement, the one great day of sharing the Sufferings of Christ, that we may have part also in his glory to follow.

All of our work, therefore, is merely the "filling up of that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ." When all of those afflictions shall have been filled up, the glorious work of the Millennial Age will follow. That work comes under the New Covenant, Israel being first to participate and subsequently all nations. The world in the next age will not be blessed under our Sarah Covenant, the Seed of which is spiritual--no more than we are now blessed under the Keturah Covenant, the New Covenant, whose seed is natural, earthly.

When our Lord said, "This cup is the blood of the New Covenant," we should understand that, primarily the cup is his, and secondarily it is ours, who are his Body, sharing it and drinking it with him. There will be none of it left for others to drink of afterwards, for his command is, "Drink ye all of it." It was, therefore, primarily, our Lord's blood or death which was necessary to the sealing of the New Covenant, but by Divine arrangement the blood or death of his Church is also made necessary (as part of the Sin-offering). Hence the New Covenant cannot be sealed, finished, made operative, until all the "members of the Body" shall have died, when the Great High Priest's "better sacrifice" shall be finished.

It is, therefore, quite proper that our Lord's death or blood should be mentioned as the blood of the New Covenant, even though it is not applied until all the members of his Body shall have been sacrificed by him. Then he will apply all the blood, all the sacrifice, all the death merit, as his own on behalf of the world and seal the Covenant with God on behalf of men.

After having sealed the Covenant with the Father, Christ with his Church will at once enter upon the great work of reconciling the world (mediating the New Covenant), restoring the world to harmony with the Father.”

Your second text: “… who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” 2 Cor 3:6

In Reply, the prospective members of the Church, the body of him are being prepared as the Mediator, ministers of the New Covenant, and of reconciliation. Being made a minister or servant of something does not necessarily imply its being put into place right now.

The Apostle declares, "He hath made us able ministers (servants) of the New Covenant." This work of qualifying the Church, the members of the Body of the Mediator, prepares them for a future service in helping Israel and the world under and through the terms of the New Covenant. All the Lord's faithful ones are ministers or servants of this New Covenant now, in that they are engaged, as the Lord's mouth-pieces, in calling the members of the Body of Christ, and engaged also as the Lord's representatives in edifying one another and building one another up in the "most holy faith," preparing one another as members of the Body of the Mediator, the Body of Christ, to be associated with him in the work of his Mediatorial Kingdom.

You ask: What IS the New Covenant, other than the forgiveness of sins (I will remember their sins no more) through the work of Christ (this is the new covenant in my blood)?

In Reply, as we said preaching the “good news”, the “gospel of reconciliation”, that "Christ died for our sins"; that by him "we have redemption through his blood, even the remission of sins", does not in any way imply that the New Covenant is being put into effect, that it is being made operative now.

 

[Harvest 1874]

You're still missing the point totally. It's different, isn't it, to be willing to die for something, if you need to, and having to die for you to gain it in the first place. You are putting too much emphasis on the need to die for Christ. And his death was so we didn't need to. It was to rescue us from that. Why would the bible make such a show of saying that the final enemy Christ will defeat is death..."where, o' death, is your victory, where o'death, is your sting?" if we must all line up and embrace it just as we embrace Christ? No! As Christians we say that everything is worth giving up for Jesus...even our lives if needed, but in truth? Death is but one more foe who is already defeated and doesn't realize it yet.

There’s a big difference between dying for Christ and dying with Christ, we DO NOT die for Christ, it was he who died for us. However in God’s plan which was laid out before the very foundation of the world He intended from the start that the Christ would be composed of many members all shaped, fitted, and conformed to the image of his dear Son, the head of this body. This is not something new he added later during the Gospel age it was His plan from the very beginning.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members being many are one body, so also is Christ."

And just as the head was tested in all points (Heb 4:15), tried through the things he suffered, and proved faithful unto death, so too those who would be members of this body must pass this same test. The servant is not above his Lord, and so those who would share in the Lord’s reward must likewise share in his sufferings, filling up that which remains of the afflictions of Christ, they must be willing to lay down their lives (actual lives) even as he did, and if proven faithful unto death they shall share in his reward, and in his inheritance. (Rev 2:10)

No my sister I believe it is you who are missing the point here, you have not yet properly understood what the fellowship in the sufferings of Christ truly consist of, what it means to be made conformable to his death (made participators with him in his sacrificial death). Phil 3:10

This implies more than just a passive conformity to his disposition or spirit, but an actual participation in his baptism, his death. This of course is only possible for those who have been joined to the body of Christ.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! The whole point of Jesus dying on the cross, was that it was in our place!! You know...so that we didn't have to as well? Golly...this is why they call it good news! When we put our faith in him, a transaction takes place on a spiritual level. His perfect life is placed in our 'account', while our sinful ones were placed in his...on his shoulders while he hung on that cross for us. That is why when God looks at us, he sees no sin, no life that needs to pass through death to be redeemed. The only...hear me...only reason a Christian may die for their faith, is because this world is still fallen and death, the final enemy will not be defeated until God calls time on it and wraps the sky up like a scroll. Since the world and most of it's inhabitants are fallen and hostile towards us, we are persecuted, just as our Lord was. We accept this, and persevere...how can we not? But death, if it comes, is not a prerequisite for gaining access to Jesus and his work to save us.

Nope, sorry. "Sacrifice as a grounds for salvation"....is something that you must do. Which means it is works based. If I do this, then God will give me that. The bible is exceedingly clear that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, through his work on the cross alone. The end. Anything that comes after that falls into the category of sanctification and the Christian walk, NOT salvation.

Your difficulty is in rightly dividing the word of God, in this case a failure to distinguish between the two salvation's and their distinctive requirements and the rewards each brings.

“The Scriptures set forth two salvation's, entirely separate and distinct. They are different as respects time, in that the one "salvation began to be spoken by our Lord" at His First Advent, and began to be applicable to His Church at Pentecost, and will wholly cease at His Second Coming in the end of this Age. The other salvation neither applied before our Lord's First Advent nor during this Gospel Age, but will apply to all mankind, except the Church, during the Millennium, the thousand years of the reign of Christ and the Church, specially designed for the blessing of the world and it’s uplifting out of sin and death conditions.

This salvation the “common salvation”, spoken of in Jude 3 provides not only for the restitution and restoration of all that was lost in Adam, specifically human perfection and glory, but likewise for another test or opportunity for life, this time an individual test which if faithfully completed and passed will reap its reward of eternal life. This salvation comes to Adam and all his posterity it is the free gift of God, no one merits it, it is solely of God’s grace and the great sacrifice of his Son. The only conditions for the common salvation are recognition of Jesus who bought us with his own precious blood and an acceptance of the salvation provided (believe and accept) coupled with their best endeavors to abstain from sin.

Now the salvation which the Church receives they receive now during this Gospel age this salvation referred to in the scriptures as “THE salvation,” “YOUR salvation,” “OUR salvation,” “so GREAT salvation,” and etc. (Luke 3:6; Eph 1:13; Phil 2:12; Rom 13:11; Heb 2:3; 1 Pet 1:10) is also from sin and death, but it includes a change of nature, so that the life enjoyed when this salvation is fully accomplished will be not a restoration of human nature, but a transforming to the “divine nature,” no longer earthly beings, but heavenly or spiritual beings.

Those who will share in the “great salvation” and be “especially” saved to heavenly conditions must first share by faith in the common salvation. These during the Gospel Age have accepted Jesus and his atoning sacrifice as the ground and substance of restored rights and privileges as men, not getting that restoration to perfect manhood actually, as the world will during the Millennium, but accepting it now by faith it is to such, a reckoned perfection; an imputed justification, a reckoned recovery from all that was lost to all that human perfection and blessing which Jesus’ ransom [corresponding price] recovered for all. But if such would accept of the “heavenly calling,” they must do more than thus believe and accept.

All such who would participate in this salvation are called to sacrifice. This “service” of “sacrifice” after having been justified from sin and death by Jesus’ ransom alone, is the condition upon which any shall be “accounted worthy” of the heavenly prize, the great salvation. Only upon the condition of sacrificing with the Master, sharing in and filling up of that sacrifice for the world, are any promised a part in that “little flock” which shall share Jesus’ resurrection [the same sort] because they share his sacrifice.

 

[Naomi25]

We didn’t mean to imply that you knew nothing, only that from what we have gathered thus far it is apparent that your understanding of the various covenants is deficient.

Oh. That's so much better. Deficient. Thanks.
I suppose we can beg to differ on that.
And... who is "we"?

If you had truly studied the issue I believe you would find that it’s “pulled” directly from the scriptures.

An appreciation of the two phases of the kingdom, those called to a heavenly inheritance presently and those who will be called to an earthly inheritance in the next age is a prerequisite to a proper understanding of our text (Gen 22:16-18).

Here God used two symbols to describe the promised seed of Abraham, sand and stars. It appears to be no coincidence that one of these elements is found on earth and the other in the heavens—the sand of the seashore and the stars of the heavens. One of these seeds, the spiritual (or heavenly), is identified as Jesus Christ and his Church in two verses in the book of Galatians.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ."—Gal 3:16

"And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."—Gal 3:29

There is just a suggestion as to who the earthly seed will be in Gen 12:3— "I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses’ you I will curse; and by you (or “in you”) shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”

Okay, because this threatens to become super long and complicated, I'm going to try and really pare down my answers.
To this, it seems simple, you are hanging your whole argument on their being 2 elements in this promise to Abraham, 'earth and star'. The problem is, when we read to the text, God is using both star and sand only in reference to examples of number. Which means you are reading into the text something you want to be there, but is not. Which sort of makes your whole point moot.

We understand that this is in reference to Israel. Israel itself only needed God's one vote to be considered the "elect" of God. "As touching the election, they [Israel] are beloved for the fathers' sakes" (Rom 11:28). What purpose does God's election of Israel serve? To the first father of Israel, Abraham, was given the promise, "In blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is upon the sea shore…In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Gen. 22:18). Passed down to Isaac, then Jacob and then his twelve sons the nation of Israel inherited this special choosing of God. "O children of Israel...you only have I known of all the families of the earth..." (Amos 3:1, 2) This election of Israel meant not only special care by God, but also special responsibility and therefore special chastisements through history.

What is not generally comprehended is that the choosing of the seed of Abraham was not just for the blessing of the seed of Abraham. The selected "seed" was and is to "bless all the families of the earth." In other words, Israel was elected to be an instrument of blessing to the non-elect!

To say Israel had lost their chance to be the blesser of nations by not accepting Jesus Christ is to ignore the Apostle Paul's powerful discourse in Romans 11. Yes, "the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Verse 7). Only a few accepted the call to become Christians, but Paul concludes that this blindness would only last until the Church was complete, "Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Verse 25). After that time, "Thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, the Deliverer will come from Zion, and he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Verse 25, 26)

What is also not appreciated generally is just who is this chosen, elected "seed"? The promise is that the seed would be as the "stars of heaven" as well as the "sands of the seashore." The elect seed would be both spiritual and earthly. Most Christians usually only see half of the promise, that is in regards to the heavenly seed (with others like yourself apparently only the earthly seed). But the spiritual "seed" is to work together with the earthly "seed" to bless all the families of the earth. The Christian elect (the spiritual seed, Zion) will work through the earthly elect (the earthly seed, Israel) to bless all the nations.

“Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.” For out of Zion (the spiritual phase of the kingdom) shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem (the earthly phase of the kingdom).” Isaiah 2:2, 3

God's promises concerning the two seeds, those whom He elects are not an exaggeration!



Ah! Something we agree on, who would have guessed?



In essence it is Christ’s sacrifice (NOT the ransom sacrifice itself, the one sacrifice once for all, mind you), but Christ’s covenant of sacrifice. All who would are privileged to join Christ in this same covenant, a “covenant by sacrifice”, that they may be joint sacrificers with their Lord, permitted to consecrate their justified lives (justified through faith) as sacrifices in the Lord's service--joint-sacrificers with their Lord, in whose foot-steps they are called to follow. These, in their consecration, are reckoned as dying to the human nature entirely, and their new minds are reckoned as having been transformed, as being no longer human minds or wills, but spiritual minds or wills--"We have the mind of Christ." This will, still exercised through a human body, is by the Lord and by his children accounted as the beginning of the new nature, the nucleus or new will of the "new creature."

You are, I think, talking about sanctification. But, as I understand what you are saying, we see it slightly differently. You see it as a "all or nothing" commitment that should be entered into as soon as a life is given to Christ, where I see it as a process that takes a life time of faithfully walking with Christ to become more like him.

“It was Jehovah's purpose to have a prepared company to be associated with His Son in His great work for the restoration of the world. This class is called the Bride of Christ, the members of His Body. As they were sinners, under the same death penalty as the remainder of the world, it was necessary that the merit of Christ's sacrificial death be first utilized for them. Instead of being justified actually, as will the world during the Age to come, these have perfect righteousness imputed to them instantaneously, when they accept Christ's sacrificial work on their behalf AND consecrate themselves wholly to God. Thus they are enabled to become joint-sacrificers with their Lord and Head that they may be sharers in His future Reign.”

Most believers have taken the first step and have accepted of the sacrificial work of Christ on their behalf, but few have gone on and taken the second step of fully consecrating themselves and joining their Lord in sacrifice.

I think, perhaps you are fundamentally mixing up salvation and sanctification as they are spelled out in scripture. Both are important, but are very different. Salvation is what puts us right with God...Christ's work on the cross...yes, that which instantly imputes his righteousness onto us, and our sins onto him. And in that work, we can do nothing! There is no "joint work" or "sacrificial nature" that we can hold hands with him for to achieve in this. Even the faith we receive to believe in him is a gift of God, we are told. Every part of salvation is a gift a God, so that we can boast in nothing. Nothing.
Sanctification is what comes afterwards and will last for the rest of our lives. Now that involves some cooperation on our behalf, but even that must be empowered by the Holy Spirit. And I think you'll find, despite your claim, that any genuine Christian is embarking on this walk, even if it is slowly. Is this a covenant? The bible doesn't talk about it in this way. It talks about it in the form of a race... we run with endurance, keeping our eyes on the finish line; Jesus. And I believe the bible talks about it this way because even once we are "saved", we do not become sinless. It is impossible to all at once drop everything from our lives that cause us to stumble. It is a process. But when a person is saved, they do make a very real commitment to becoming more Christ-like. The presence of the Holy Spirit within us demands it.

 

[Naomi25]

The Church is now called to a "heavenly calling" under the Abrahamic Covenant--to the members of the Body of Christ, who, with Jesus her Head, will constitute the Mediator of the New Covenant. The Church is "not under Law, but under grace," not judged according to the flesh and earthly restitution, but judged according to the heart and intention; and required to sacrifice restitution rights to the attainment of "the high calling" life and glory on the spirit plane as members of the Mediator of the New Covenant.

Get this in your mind clearly, the Church is not under the New Covenant, nor will they ever be, instead they are being prepared as priest to be the go-between, the Mediator of the New Covenant between God and mankind.

I'm sorry, but I see this as just incorrect. As I've mentioned before, the New Covenant, which is God "remembering our sins no more"... the forgiveness of sins by the spilling of Christ's blood... which is something Paul teaches to the Gentile Church... is clearly for us. Paul also spends a good portion of time making it clear that the wall of division between Israel and Gentile has come down due to Christ and this New Covenant that he has established. In this new covenant, believing gentiles have been grafted into God's elect people...
It's fairly clear and simple.

There could be no covenant without Christ and the Church, because it is the blood of Christ that constitutes the sealing value of the new covenant. That new covenant must be sealed, and it is to be sealed by the blood of Christ. While the ransom feature is all in the Lord Jesus and his death, yet the Church is counted in as his Body, and the blood of the whole Church is counted in as a part of that blood that will seal the new covenant, or make it operative.

Since it is self-evident that the Church is not yet complete, it is evident that the New Covenant has not yet been sealed, and therefore has not been made active nor applicable to any.

And...I see this absolutely nowhere in scripture. First...our blood completing Christ's sacrifice and New Covenant? Seriously? Where did that come from? And it hasn't been made active yet? Wow...so, for 2000 years when we take communion, as Christ told us to...to remember when he died and began the New Covenant ("this IS the New Covenant" he said), that was what? Wishful thinking? Forward thinking? Positive thinking? Again, you are reading into scripture what is simply not there. At all! I must shake my head in wonder. You take tiny snippets of biblical truth, but then swing out wide from them with ideas that just aren't there; they aren't in the text and clearly the text isn't talking about it.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I'm sorry, but I see this as just incorrect. As I've mentioned before, the New Covenant, which is God "remembering our sins no more"... the forgiveness of sins by the spilling of Christ's blood... which is something Paul teaches to the Gentile Church... is clearly for us. Paul also spends a good portion of time making it clear that the wall of division between Israel and Gentile has come down due to Christ and this New Covenant that he has established. In this new covenant, believing gentiles have been grafted into God's elect people...
It's fairly clear and simple.




And...I see this absolutely nowhere in scripture. First...our blood completing Christ's sacrifice and New Covenant? Seriously? Where did that come from? And it hasn't been made active yet? Wow...so, for 2000 years when we take communion, as Christ told us to...to remember when he died and began the New Covenant ("this IS the New Covenant" he said), that was what? Wishful thinking? Forward thinking? Positive thinking? Again, you are reading into scripture what is simply not there. At all! I must shake my head in wonder. You take tiny snippets of biblical truth, but then swing out wide from them with ideas that just aren't there; they aren't in the text and clearly the text isn't talking about it.

It is evident that we see things differently in respects to this subject, perhaps in time the Lord willing things may change, for now we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on to other subjects.

 

[Naomi25]

You state: This Psalm is interesting, isn't it? Because it does speak of 'covenant', but we do not see, any time before it, when such a "covenant of sacrifice" was specifically instigated.

In Reply, Actually a type of this covenant was shown when Abraham offered up his son Isaac in sacrifice, in offering up his son to the Lord, Abraham was entering into covenant with God.

Actually, this is not how Covenants tend to work. Both parties enter into a Covenant by making promises and also making it clear what will happen if the promise is broken. For example: when God made the Covenant with Abraham about the land, it was one sided, but it still held those particulars. God made his promise; the land will ultimately be his and his descendants, and should God break his covenant, be to him, as was to the animal carcasses he passed through. He did not require Abraham to pass through the animals, because Abraham wasn't beholden to the Covenant. Now...remaining in the land...that one was conditional, on the Israelites following God's laws and statutes.
Anyway...when Abraham took his son up onto the Mountain to sacrifice him as the Lord commanded, it was not because he was entering into a Covenant. It was about obedience and faith. And it was a foreshadowing event. God himself, centuries later, sacrificed his own son on a Mountain.

You state: This is widely believed to be because this 'covenant of sacrifice' that God speaks of is not favors that people bestow upon God, or rituals that we must complete in order to survive. Rather, this 'covenant of sacrifice' is a heartfelt response from every Christian, of gratitude and love, for God; for who he is and what he has done for his people.

In Reply, we agree with part of this statement but not all of it. Yes it’s true that after one has taken the time to truly appreciate all that the Lord has done for them in regards to their salvation and reconciliation with himself that they (some) cannot but be filled with such gratitude and love for God that they wonder what they might do in appreciation for this unmerited kindness. This reciprocation (sacrifice) on the part of the individual is not something one renders to God in order to insure their salvation, (or as you put it their survival) that has already been accomplished through Christ.

You state: This covenant applies to people in both OT and NT, under the covenant of Law or Grace. God desires attitudes of thanksgiving...not ritual.

In Reply, actually the privilege of joining in this covenant, a covenant by sacrifice was only first made applicable following our Lord having made this covenant first, and this he made when at the river Jordan he fully consecrated himself to the Father, agreeing to fulfill all that was required of him in respects to the Fathers great plan of the ages. No one preceded the Lord in this covenant of sacrifice because no one was ever proven worthy of being accepted as such a sacrifice. Our worthiness to participate in this covenant comes only by means of our first having received of the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and our being joined to the body.

And yet, the bible often speaks of OT saints being saved by the faith they had in God, knowing of his promised Messiah. In fact we're often told it's faith they're saved by, not the following of the law that they lived under. That sounds very "new covenant-y" really, doesn't it? God using them as examples in the NT of what faithful men look like, even though we are quite aware of their sins. God "remembers there sins no more".
Makes you think...

Consecration to righteousness (to right living) has always been required of all God’s creature from ages past to the future to be, but never before and never again will sacrifice be required of any. "Behold, now is the accepted time (for sacrifices); behold, now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor 6:2; Isa 49:8

"Now," or the accepted time, did not commence until the Gospel Age began, at Pentecost; or rather in the fullest sense it began with Jesus' sacrifice, dating from his consecration at baptism. The sacrifice of Christ, which actually takes away sin, was THE ACCEPTABLE sacrifice; and it must be an accomplished fact, before any of the condemned sinners could be actually legally justified, so as to be ACCEPTED as joint sacrificers and joint heirs with him.

Though justified thus by faith in Christ's redemptive work, none of those justified in this age have been permitted to reach actual restitution to human perfection, that being the privilege not of this the Gospel Age, but of the coming Millennial Age. But that right to human perfection and lasting life, having been secured for all, those who now by faith accept it, are reckoned as now possessing that perfection--as though now perfect men. Such during the Gospel Age have been invited to present themselves as living SACRIFICES to be used up in God's service (Rom 12:1), and the assurance is given that whoever thus sacrifices "NOW" during the acceptable time, is accepted of God, and shall in due time receive the reward of the crown, the throne, and the divine nature, as joint-heirs with Jesus Christ whose example they thus follow--AFTER being justified by faith in his sacrifice for their sins.

Those who before the death of Jesus our ransom, trusted in God's promises, and walked in obedience to God, were not actually justified until the only sacrifice, which could take away sin, was actually offered. Nevertheless their faith shall receive a reward in the times of restitution. But living before the "acceptable" time, they were not informed of the "high-calling" of the divine nature and joint-heirship, and therefore were not invited to thus offer themselves as members of the body of Christ and joint-sacrificers with him. "Behold now [the Gospel Age] is the accepted (or receivable) time (for sacrifice); behold now is a day of salvation, (THE day of [the "great"] salvation)."

Okay. Not sure I like how you just pop in your word to make that verse say what you want it to. Paul is saying that this time of salvation...the time that Israel can receive the blessings of salvation, is now! They do not have to wait until the next age to start to experience those blessings. Putting the word "sacrifice" in there is uncalled for.
The notion of 'Already, Not Yet' is not new. Clearly we are taught that while Jesus instigated the Kingdom, we will have to wait for it to be fully consummated and fulfilled, and all that that entails.
Also, the idea of giving ourselves as "a living sacrifice" is not a new one, or one that contradicts the notion of sanctification. But, as I said, sanctification is not a "Covenant" and the bible clearly talks about the process as a daily walk that will last our lives.

 

[Naomi25]

You state: Are we saved by offering our bodies to God as "living sacrifices"? No. Clearly that will not do. The bible tells us salvation only comes through faith in Jesus' salvific work on the cross.

In Reply, It is evident here that you seem to think we are implying that our becoming joint sacrifices with our Lord somehow applies to our salvation, if this is the case you are clearly mistaken. Our becoming joint sacrificers with our Lord neither applies to nor adds in any way to the all sufficiency of Christ’ sacrifice once for all.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.

“The invitation to each prospective member of the body of Christ is, that after having been justified by faith through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, he should sacrifice his all, and thus be reckoned a joint-sacrificer with the great Redeemer, as having fellowship with Him in His sufferings, that he might also share in His glory. (Rom. 8:17) This is the particular feature of this Gospel Age: it is the Age of sacrifice and self-denial as respects all earthly blessings and privileges and advantages. And the object or hope inspiring to such sacrifices of present things is that all such shall be made partakers of far greater riches of glory, honor, immortality, and eternal life in the Kingdom. While our sacrifice is no part of the ransom price, it is a filling up of "that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ for his body's sake." (Col. 1:24) Our sacrifice would avail nothing were it not for Christ's sacrifice and the sweet odor of his personal merit ascending to God with our prayers for a share in his meritorious covering.

Okay, perhaps at this point I should ask: what do you mean, exactly, when you say we must become "joint-sacrificers" with Christ? What things must we suffer, like he did, for us to be a part of this covenant that you are talking about?

Some may ask, what has the Church to do with the Sin-offering?

The Church has nothing to do with the Sin-offering, as a Church. It is the Lord Jesus who is the responsible One in the whole matter. In the type it was not the under priests that did the offering, but the high priest. So it was the Lord Jesus that offered up Himself. He offers us up as members of His body, but He does not do this contrary to our wills. We desire that He will offer us up as parts of Himself, that we may thus have a share in "the sufferings of Christ and the glory that shall follow." It is His merit alone that gives virtue to our sacrifice.

The whole responsibility, therefore, is in the hands of the great High Priest, our Lord. We share with Him in the world's Sin-offering, as His members. We participate in the sufferings which are counted as His sufferings. You and I could not atone for sins by our sufferings--either for our own sins or for those of others. That is all in the Lord's hands.

You state: The implication then is clear: our offer of ourselves comes in response to the gift of salvation. If regeneration is true, then offering ourselves up as living sacrifices out of gratitude and love, and yes...obedience, is the next step in sanctification.

In Reply, here you have just about grasps the true idea, only after we have accepted the gift of salvation and the forgiveness of sins are we in the condition in which we may offer an acceptable sacrifice upon the Lord’s altar. The next step is indeed sanctification (the setting apart) of ourselves to God and to his will in full consecration.

I think before I comment further, I need to confirm the above...

 

[Harvest 1874]

Oh. That's so much better. Deficient. Thanks.
I suppose we can beg to differ on that.
And... who is "we"?

Who are “We”?

“WE” are the church, the body of Christ,

“For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.” (1 Cor 12:12-14)

The same thought is pictured by “grapes” Grapes are produced by the branches, which abide in the vine for their life. "Ye are the branches . . . the same brings forth much fruit" (John 15:5).

As the branches have no life except they be in the vine, so all merit comes from our Lord Jesus Christ. The church has no intrinsic merit at all. It is Christ’s merit that passes through the church giving her justification, making her right in God’s eyes. IT is one cup, though it be the juice of many grapes, even as IT is one loaf, though it be from many grains. The grains cannot maintain their INDIVIDUALITY and their own life if they would become bread for others; the grapes cannot maintain THEMSELVES as grapes if they would constitute the life-giving spirit; and thus we see the beauty of the apostle's statement that the Lord's people are participants in the one loaf and cup.... There is no other way that we can attain the new nature than by accepting the Lord's invitation to drink of His cup, and be broken with Him as members of the one loaf, and to be buried with Him in baptism into His death, and thus to attain with Him resurrection glory, honor and immortality.

Thus when I refer to “we” I am speaking of the body as a whole, not as any one member, for there is no schism in the body of Christ. Notice the way in which the Apostle Paul addresses those to whom he is speaking in his epistles, notice he rarely mentions himself, as “self” is to be crucified (deaden with Christ), “I die daily” (1 Cor 15:31) thus he addresses the church in the plural sense, as the body is composed of many members and no individuals save that of the head of the body which is Christ.

Some scriptural examples:

“Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.” 2 Cor 5:20

“But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses…” 2 Cor 6:4

“I assure you, we (those begotten of the spirit) tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you (the natural man) won't believe our testimony.” John 3:11

Okay, because this threatens to become super long and complicated, I'm going to try and really pare down my answers.
To this, it seems simple, you are hanging your whole argument on their being 2 elements in this promise to Abraham, 'earth and star'. The problem is, when we read to the text, God is using both star and sand only in reference to examples of number. Which means you are reading into the text something you want to be there, but is not. Which sort of makes your whole point moot.

You state: The problem is, when we read the text, God is using both star and sand only in reference to examples of number, which means you are reading into the text something you want to be there, but is not, which sort of makes your whole point moot.

In Reply, of course this is only your opinion, viz. that “God is using both star and sand only in reference to examples of number.”

We however see this analogy of sand and stars as being applied in two senses, 1) in respects to numbers as you have suggested, and 2) in regards to the nature of the seeds produced.

Now there is no argument here that the analogy used viz. sand of the seashore and stars of the heavens implies a multitudinous number of these two different seeds.

On Several occasions the promise was reiterated in various forms, and with several additions. On the second occasion, in Gen 13:15, 16, the allusion to the “dust of the earth” is added.

“For all the land which thou sees, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed forever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.”

Just two chapters later, in Gen 15:5 the additional metaphor of “the stars of heaven” is also included.

“Look now toward heaven and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them; and He said unto him, so shall thy seed be.”

The question thus presents itself, were these allusions to “sand” and “stars” just to present the concept of a multitude, or was there a deeper reason?

Once again we turn to Gal 3:16.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ.”

But who is this Christ of whom Paul speaks? Certainly not Jesus, for he is an individual and the seed was to be uncountable. The term “Christ” merely means “the anointed,” and refers not to Jesus alone, but his followers as well. Note the testimony of 1 Cor 12:27.

“Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.”

It is with this larger “Christ,” Head and Body, in mind that Paul continues his argument in Gal 3:29:

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

In these passages, then, the Apostle Paul identifies not only Jesus Christ, but also all of his followers as the “seed of Abraham.”

Yet, speaking of this same class in Luke 12:32, Jesus speaks of them as a “little flock.” This is hardly a term that harmonizes well with the Genesis expression “if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.”

A careful examination of Gen 22:18, in fact, suggest that the ultimate size of this seed is “all the nations of the earth.”

Notice the implication: Paul, in Galatians, identifies the seed as the followers of Christ, who will share a heavenly inheritance with their bridegroom and Redeemer. Moses, in Genesis, on the other hand, suggests a seed large enough to encompass “all the nations of the earth.” These nations, as many texts show, are destined to inhabit a perfected earth.

Who is right: Paul or Moses? The obvious answer is, both, for the writings of both are in the Bible. But how? We suggest the answer lies in, Gen 22:17, which implies that the “seed of Abraham” would be divided into two portions. First, the followers of Christ, would be like “the stars of heaven,” a spiritual or heavenly class; and second, mankind, would be like “the sand which is upon the sea shore.”

How harmonious this is with Paul’s words in Eph 1:10:

“That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth.”

How fitting that Christians continue to pray, as Jesus commended in Matt 6:10: “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.”

[/QUOTE]

 

[Harvest 1874]

You are, I think, talking about sanctification. But, as I understand what you are saying, we see it slightly differently. You see it as a "all or nothing" commitment that should be entered into as soon as a life is given to Christ, where I see it as a process that takes a life time of faithfully walking with Christ to become more like him.

Actually in a sense when one enters into covenant relationship with the Father it is “all or nothing”, that is to say there is no turning back, once the contract (the covenant) of sacrifice has been made it cannot be rescinded, that which has been accepted of the Lord and laid upon his altar must remain there until it has been completely consumed, thus the admonishment that we “count the cost” before entering into such an agreement.

I can see here that you are still mixing the “common salvation” (Jude 3), that which is by grace alone with that of the special salvation which is offered only now during the “acceptable time” and only to those willing to do more than simply believe, but who are willing to join with their Lord in sacrifice, this salvation, "THE salvation," "YOUR salvation," "OUR salvation," "so GREAT salvation," and etc. is that which is mentioned in Luke 3:6; Eph 1:13; Phil 2:12; Rom 13:11; Heb 2:3; 1 Pet 1:10.

Those who will share in the “great salvation” and be “especially” saved to heavenly conditions must of course first share by faith in the common salvation.

Both of these salvation's, according to the Bible, result from the death of Jesus our Redeemer, who died in obedience to the Divine will, “Died, the Just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” (1 Pet 3:18). The Scriptures clearly show not only the two salvation's, but also two parts of the Redeemer’s work, distinctly separating his work for the Church from his work for the world. In his death there was a Divine general provision for the sins of the whole world and a special provision for the sins of the Church. The two thoughts are frequently brought out in the Scriptures. One text distinctly declares, “He is the propitiation [satisfaction] for our sins [the Church’s sins], and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” His death constituted the satisfaction price. The Redeemer applied that merit for the Church’s sins, “for us,” long ago, a little over twenty centuries before we were born. Only when we became believers and entered into a Covenant of sacrifice did we obtain our share in the merit of that great sacrifice. The world has not yet received its share of that promised blessing, but the operation of the Divine Plan is sure and will bring it to them “in due time,” as the Apostle Paul declares (1 Tim 2:6).

The conditions governing the salvation of the Church are wholly different from those which will appertain to the world.

The Church is called out of the world (sanctified or “set apart”) under a Divine invitation to suffer with Christ in the present life during this Gospel Age and then to reign with Christ during the Millennial Age, participating in his Mediatorial Kingdom for the blessing, uplifting, salvation of the world. It is not in vain, therefore, that our Lord and the apostles, in setting forth the call of the Church during this Age, specified particularly and frequently the necessity for all who would share in this salvation to participate with the Redeemer in his sacrificing, in “his death,” and consequently participate in “his resurrection” and in his reign of glory. Hark to the words, “Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life;” “To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my Throne;” “And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:27).

Let us remember our Lord’s words to the disciples James and John, respecting a place in His Millennial Throne. He intimated that the getting to the Throne at all, in any place, would imply great humility and self-sacrifice. He asked the disciples, “Are ye able (willing) to drink of the cup that I shall drink of and to be baptized with the baptism (into death) that I am baptized with?” (Mark 10:38) Hearken again; this cup of which he tells us we must drink, if we would sit in his Throne, is his communion cup. It is offered, not to the world, but to his consecrated followers. It is not another cup, but “My Cup.” The invitation was, “This is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Drink ye all of it” (Matt 26:28, 27) It must all be drunk before the many, the world, can get their share of the intended blessing through the New Covenant, which this blood seals. And only the Disciples of Christ, only those who desire to walk in his steps, are invited to drink of that cup. All of them are so invited and they will drink all of it. None of it will be left for the world during the Millennial Age to drink. It is a special privilege to drink of this cup. With the drinking of it goes the special blessing of the special salvation of this Gospel Age. Except we eat of his flesh (appropriate the merit of his sacrifice), and unless we drink his blood (join in sacrifice with him), we have no life in us —inherent life, immortality.” (Harvest Gleanings 2, Page 769)

You state: You see it as an "all or nothing" commitment that should be entered into as soon as a life is given to Christ, where I see it as a process that takes a life time of faithfully walking with Christ to become more like him.

In Reply, you are correct in this last with respects to sanctification being a process that takes a life time to accomplish, it truly takes a life time to develop the character likeness of our Lord and not only must it be developed but likewise maintained till the end of our course. We will address the issue of sanctification a bit more when we respond to your next comment.

Sorry for the delay in response time, but being a member of this forum as well as another, plus having to maintain two separate blogs and a Website keeps me rather busy these days, not to mention work. I will however address the remainder of your comments and get them posted as soon as I can.

 

[Jay Ross]

It is evident from this response that your knowledge of the various covenants mentioned in the scriptures is somewhat limited therefore we should probably begin with a review of some of these. A clear appreciation of the divine covenants is important and valuable to the Christian. In the knowledge of these he possesses the key to the understanding of the entire plan of God.

The first covenant (literally the first) is the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 17:1-7)

<snip>

Literally, the first covenant between God and mankind was not the Abrahamic Covenant. It is found in Genesis 2.

Genesis 2: 15-17 : - 15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

It can loosely be paraphrased as: - If you do not do well, in our relationship, then you will be a candidate for the second death.

This is a covenant of life and death for all of mankind.

It is the first recorded covenant in scripture in my humble opinion.

 

[Naomi25]

Who are “We”?

“WE” are the church, the body of Christ,

“For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.” (1 Cor 12:12-14)

The same thought is pictured by “grapes” Grapes are produced by the branches, which abide in the vine for their life. "Ye are the branches . . . the same brings forth much fruit" (John 15:5).

As the branches have no life except they be in the vine, so all merit comes from our Lord Jesus Christ. The church has no intrinsic merit at all. It is Christ’s merit that passes through the church giving her justification, making her right in God’s eyes. IT is one cup, though it be the juice of many grapes, even as IT is one loaf, though it be from many grains. The grains cannot maintain their INDIVIDUALITY and their own life if they would become bread for others; the grapes cannot maintain THEMSELVES as grapes if they would constitute the life-giving spirit; and thus we see the beauty of the apostle's statement that the Lord's people are participants in the one loaf and cup.... There is no other way that we can attain the new nature than by accepting the Lord's invitation to drink of His cup, and be broken with Him as members of the one loaf, and to be buried with Him in baptism into His death, and thus to attain with Him resurrection glory, honor and immortality.

Thus when I refer to “we” I am speaking of the body as a whole, not as any one member, for there is no schism in the body of Christ. Notice the way in which the Apostle Paul addresses those to whom he is speaking in his epistles, notice he rarely mentions himself, as “self” is to be crucified (deaden with Christ), “I die daily” (1 Cor 15:31) thus he addresses the church in the plural sense, as the body is composed of many members and no individuals save that of the head of the body which is Christ.

Some scriptural examples:

“Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.” 2 Cor 5:20

“But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses…” 2 Cor 6:4

“I assure you, we (those begotten of the spirit) tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you (the natural man) won't believe our testimony.” John 3:11

I'm sorry....you're referring to yourself as "the Church"? Not just a member of the church, but, when speaking to me, you are actually using the pronoun to imply you are the church? Let me just break it to you. You are not Paul. Paul wrote the majority of the NT. Paul was caught up to heaven and shown things most men cannot dream of. Paul was given direct instructions and visions from Christ himself. You are not Paul. And I would argue you are not even representative of the majority of "the Church". To speak like you speak with all of their authority...nay...their mind as one, is just...well, nuts. This is not the bible...this is a forum for conversation among people. Drop the 'we'.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Literally, the first covenant between God and mankind was not the Abrahamic Covenant. It is found in Genesis 2.

Genesis 2: 15-17 : - 15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

It can loosely be paraphrased as: - If you do not do well, in our relationship, then you will be a candidate for the second death.

This is a covenant of life and death for all of mankind.

It is the first recorded covenant in scripture in my humble opinion.

In the general sense it is true that the Abrahamic covenant was not the first covenant God ever made with man, but it is this covenant with Abraham around which all other covenants revolve. The first covenant that God ever made with man was with Noah, when He swore that He would never again destroy the earth with a flood of water.

“But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee”. Gen 6:18

“And God spoke unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; and with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there anymore be a flood to destroy the earth And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations; I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth...” Gen 9:11-13

The Covenant made with Noah was declared to be everlasting and "for perpetual generations". The subsequent covenant with Abraham again introduced no limit. "Thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him." I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed. And I will give unto thee and to thy seed after thee all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession."

The Covenant with Noah, which included all the families of the earth, and all that it takes to make up this world was to be an everlasting covenant, very much similar to that which was made with Abraham which likewise was made an everlasting covenant one which would include all the families of the earth. In essence the covenant with Noah merged into that with was made with Abraham.

As for your statement: If you do not do well, in our relationship, then you will be a candidate for the second death.

It should be understood that no one could come under the sentence of the second death, pictured by Gehenna, until he has first gotten out from under the sentence of the first death, Adamic death, and at present the only ones who have come out from under this death are those who have been reconciled to God, the spirit begotten, the Church, these are the only ones on trial for life or death at present. As it is written: Judgement begins at the house of God.

The first death at present is not consider the destruction of the being; Adamic death is but a sleep as it is the Lord’s intention is to awaken the dead in due time. It is actually death, but it is likened to a sleep in view of the resurrection. (Dan 12:2; 1 Thess 4:14) The first death (held against the individual) must be abrogated or set aside before the second death could be possible, the Lord purposes to do this by means of the ransom sacrifice and the New Covenant arrangement.

However the ransom has not yet been applied to the world and won't be until the completion of the Church and the establishment of the kingdom, thus they have not yet passed over the first death (or penalty) and as such are not susceptible to the second penalty, or second death.

To do so, to make them accountable to second death presently would be unjust, double jeopardy especially seeing as the Lord intends the release of the prisoners (Isa 61:1) by means of the ransom, eventually but not yet.