Baptism ?

[epostle1]

There are 3 kinds of baptism:
1) water
2) desire (thief on the cross)
3) blood. Martyrs, who didn't get a chance to be baptized with water, receive the baptism of blood when they are killed.

 

[Grams]

I guess I was baptized ............... I grew up with / born from Catholic parents...

 

[Triumph1300]

Did Cornelius receive the Holy spirit prior to his Water Baptism - or was he BAPTIZED in the Holy Spirit?

As far as I see it, he received the Holy Spirit baptism before he was baptized in water.

 

[BreadOfLife]

As far as I see it, he received the Holy Spirit baptism before he was baptized in water.

Are you sure about that?

Did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit on the night after Jesus rose from the dead (John 20:21-23) - or were they BAPTIZED in the Holy Spirit that night??

 

[Grams]

Do they still baptize baby's ?

 

[Triumph1300]

Are you sure about that?

Did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit on the night after Jesus rose from the dead (John 20:21-23) - or were they BAPTIZED in the Holy Spirit that night??

We were talking about Cornelius baptism with the Holy Spirit.
I personally received it the same way as Cornelius did, before water baptism.
Others received it during water baptism or after water baptism.
God can pour out His Spirit anyway He wants.

 

[Grams]

We no longer need to be Baptized ........ We have it all upon belief...

We are now all Gentiles !
Eph.2;
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Marymog]

There are many who claim that when the Lord said "born of water and of the Spirit" He was speaking about Christian baptism.

But when we study the New Testament, we discover that water is also a metaphor for the Word of God, and in this case the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation). So this "water" is the Gospel, since sinners are regenerated BEFORE they are baptized.

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Peter 1)

Hi,

I may be misunderstanding you. It seems you are saying that "water" = Gospel (the written word)?

What I see is that in John 1 Jesus is baptized with water.

Jesus then goes on to talk about water baptism in John 3:5 being necessary to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus and his disciples then put into action what He has been preaching and what he did himself when they go out and baptize others with water. The NT is rife with water baptism. When one looks at the totality of John, and the rest of the NT, we can easily see that He was referring to water baptism.

All historical Christian writings from the time show that they practiced water baptism even building baptismal fonts.

I can not see the connection with 1Peter 1 23:25 having anything to do with water baptism. Could you elaborate?

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

That was before JESUS went to the CROSS..... now we have it , with out the water !

Sooooo, what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:5 was only a TEMPORARY prescription??
Is that what you're saying??

Are you saying that when Jesus said in Mark 16:16 that ONLY the one who believes and is BAPTIZED is saved - that this was null and void after He died on the cross??

Are you telling me that when Peter told the crowds at Pentecost to be BAPTIZED for the forgiveness of their sins (Acts 2:38) - that he was just "kidding"??

When Peter stated that BAPTIZED now SAVES us (1 Pet. 3:21) - was he lying or was he just making a joke??

 

[BreadOfLife]

We no longer need to be Baptized ........ We have it all upon belief...
We are now all Gentiles !

Really??
Show me where the BIBLE makes this claim.

Chapter and Verse, please . . .

 

[H. Richard]

Hi,

I may be misunderstanding you. It seems you are saying that "water" = Gospel (the written word)?

What I see is that in John 1 Jesus is baptized with water.

Jesus then goes on to talk about water baptism in John 3:5 being necessary to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus and his disciples then put into action what He has been preaching and what he did himself when they go out and baptize others with water. The NT is rife with water baptism. When one looks at the totality of John, and the rest of the NT, we can easily see that He was referring to water baptism.

All historical Christian writings from the time show that they practiced water baptism even building baptismal fonts.

I can not see the connection with 1Peter 1 23:25 having anything to do with water baptism. Could you elaborate?

Mary

***
Mary, show me where it says baptism in water. In this whole dialogue there is no mention of baptism.

The following is a quote from my study on water baptism. You would do well to at least think about what is says before you write your reply against it.

""" Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?

**** Scripture
John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
**** end scripture

It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPLIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)

Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God to fit into the theologies of men.

It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.

 

[Grams]

Maybe this will help you to understand BreadOfLife ! I sure hope and pray it will ............
Eph. 3:

1
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph4;
22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24


And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8


Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:



EPH 4:


30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do they still baptize baby's ?

Absolutely - as the Early Church did.
This promise is not only for adults but for their CHILDREN as well (Acts 2:39).

The Early Church unanimously believed in and taught Infant Baptism - and called it a practice of the APOSTLES. The question is - why don't YOU??

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to INFANTS. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

 

[BreadOfLife]

***
Mary, show me where it says baptism in water. In this whole dialogue there is no mention of baptism.

The following is a quote from my study on water baptism. You would do well to at least think about what is says before you write your reply against it.

""" Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?

**** Scripture
John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
**** end scripture

It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPLIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)

Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God to fit into the theologies of men.

It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.

I understand how you are twisting this passage - so let me ask YOU:

As to being born of WATER and SPIRIT - what does this "Water" pertain to?

If you tell me that it pertains to amniotic fluid - not ONE Early Church Father agrees with you. Not ONE Protestant Father agrees with you, either. Sooooo, where did this teaching come from??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Maybe this will help you to understand BreadOfLife ! I sure hope and pray it will ............
Eph. 3:
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph4;
22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

EPH 4:
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Amen.
Now where do ANY of these passages say that you are saved for eternity no matter what you do??
Answer: They DON'T.

Salvation is conditional. NOWHERE does Scripture ever make the claim that is it NOT conditional - unless you cherry-pick like so many of you do. It is conditional on our obedience and faithfulness . . .
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

 

[Grams]

EPH 4:


30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

30

 

[BreadOfLife]

EPH 4:
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Amen. That's good - for cherry-picking.

NOW - what do yo do when you take the following verses in CONTEXT with the ONE verse you presented??
Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19

ALL of the above verses talk about the possibility of LOSING your secure place with God and being eternally damned.

 

[epostle1]

We no longer need to be Baptized ........ We have it all upon belief...

Acts 9:18 – Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

We are now all Gentiles !
Eph.2;
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It doesn't say "saved through faith alone."[/quote]

9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:9, "works" is works of the law. James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Ephesians 2:9 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Ephesians 2:9, Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment.
The Greek word for "works of the law" is “ergon nomou”, mostly used by Paul.
The Greek word for "good works" is “ergois agathois" mostly used by James
Therefore James "works" and Paul's' "works" are entirely different words with different meanings.

 

[H. Richard]

I understand how you are twisting this passage - so let me ask YOU:

As to being born of WATER and SPIRIT - what does this "Water" pertain to?

If you tell me that it pertains to amniotic fluid - not ONE Early Church Father agrees with you. Not ONE Protestant Father agrees with you, either. Sooooo, where did this teaching come from??

***
It comes from John 3:1-6. Now answer my question, where do you see the word baptism in John 3:1-6??

I have shown you what John 3:1-6 actually says but you reject it.

When you add words to scriptures to make them say what you want them to say, you are twisting the scriptures and are a false teacher.

You never will admit that the word baptism is not in John 3:1-6 because you must add it to make it support your ideas.

 

[BreadOfLife]

***
It comes from John 3:1-6. Now answer my question, where do you see the word baptism in John 3:1-6??

I have shown you what John 3:1-6 actually says but you reject it.

When you add words to scriptures to make them say what you want them to say, you are twisting the scriptures and are a false teacher.

You never will admit that the word baptism is not in John 3:1-6 because you must add it to make it support your ideas.

I will answer YOUR question when you answer mine.
I asked you WHAT the "water" Jesus spoke of in John 3:5 pertains to. In other words, what is He talking about when He mentions "Water".

I will be more than happy to discuss this with you - but please answer the question.