Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion

[Taken]

Yes, "born again" means "converted"

Yes.

- just as later rejecting Christ means "Apostasy".

Believe, then reject, yes is Apostasy.

Believe, Become Converted, THEN Apostate, is not possible.

As for the "maintenance" of salvation - that is up to US.

No, that is not true.

A converted man Has Received Salvation and a Quickened spirit.

Part of a man BECOMING Converted is the mans WILLING CHOICE TO GIVE HIS LIFE TO CHRIST!

Christ MAINTAINS...."KEEPS" the man Converted, in Faith-FULLNESS to God Forever.

AFTER Conversion, what you do TO Glorify Gods Name, He shall reward you.

What you do that DOES NOT glorify Gods Name, shall be burned.

What you do that Trespasses Against men...
YOU have to deal with and suffer the consequences.

God gives us the grace to faithfully endure - but it is ultimately up to US to cooperate with that grace in order to faithfully endure. God doesn't do it FOR you - He gives you the tools . . .

Absolutely God KEEPS the Converted man....Converted.
Jude 1:21

The Lord provides a Converted man with more knowledge, His Understanding, and His Power TO SERVE HIM according to His Desires.

A Gentiles mans WORKS ARE ONLY acceptable ONCE a man IS Converted (saved AND Born again) and IF any unacceptable works are burned.

You teach Works are Cooperating....and Salvation depends on Cooperation of a born again man.....not true.

 

[Taken]

Yes, "born again" means "converted"

Yes.

- just as later rejecting Christ means "Apostasy".

Believe, then reject, yes is Apostasy.

Believe, Become Converted, THEN Apostate, is not possible.

As for the "maintenance" of salvation - that is up to US.

No, that is not true.

A converted man Has Received Salvation and a Quickened spirit.

Part of a man BECOMING Converted is the mans WILLING CHOICE TO GIVE HIS LIFE TO CHRIST!

Christ MAINTAINS...."KEEPS" the man Converted, in Faith-FULLNESS to God Forever.

AFTER Conversion, what you do TO Glorify Gods Name, He shall reward you.

What you do that DOES NOT glorify Gods Name, shall be burned.

What you do that Trespasses Against men...
YOU have to deal with and suffer the consequences, between men.
Gal 6:5

God gives us the grace to faithfully endure - but it is ultimately up to US to cooperate with that grace in order to faithfully endure. God doesn't do it FOR you - He gives you the tools . . .

Absolutely God KEEPS the Converted man....Converted.
Jude 1:21

The Lord provides a Converted man with more knowledge, His Understanding, and His Power TO SERVE HIM according to His Desires.

A Gentiles mans WORKS ARE ONLY acceptable ONCE a man IS Converted (saved AND Born again) and any unacceptable works are burned.

You teach Works are Cooperating....and Salvation depends on Cooperation of a born again man.....not true.

Cooperation of a man, IS the requirement OF A SINFUL UNCONVERTED man, TO BECOME Converted.

Reasonable service of ANY Converted man IS, to present his wholly Converted, holy, whole, body, soul, spirit TO the Lord.

 

[epostle1]

Calvin often confused physical death with spiritual death, so I worded the type of death with precision. You might notice it when you study his Instigatortutes.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Yes.

A repeated post after ten minutes? Is this evidence of a rupture in the space time continuum? Pardon the humor there.

Believe, then reject, yes is Apostasy.

Believe, Become Converted, THEN Apostate, is not possible.

It is possible to be seduced and led astray by false prophets ( 1 John 2:18-28 & Matthew 7:13-27 ) as well as false spirits. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

No, that is not true.

A converted man Has Received Salvation and a Quickened spirit.

John 1:12-13 testifies how one is born again by believing in Him. It is up to His disciples to make disciples of new believers. That has nothing to do with covernsion, but running that race by faith in Jesus Christ.

Part of a man BECOMING Converted is the mans WILLING CHOICE TO GIVE HIS LIFE TO CHRIST!

Christ MAINTAINS...."KEEPS" the man Converted, in Faith-FULLNESS to God Forever.

AFTER Conversion, what you do TO Glorify Gods Name, He shall reward you.

What you do that DOES NOT glorify Gods Name, shall be burned.

That includes works of iniquity that denies Him and thus including apostasy and so a born again believer as in a converted believer can be led astray.

What you do that Trespasses Against men...
YOU have to deal with and suffer the consequences, between men.
Gal 6:5

Unless you ask for forgiveness and if God provides the opportunity, to make restitution, but otherwise, let it rest in Jesus that He has forgiven you as promised in 1 John 1:9.

Absolutely God KEEPS the Converted man....Converted.
Jude 1:21

The Lord provides a Converted man with more knowledge, His Understanding, and His Power TO SERVE HIM according to His Desires.

A Gentiles mans WORKS ARE ONLY acceptable ONCE a man IS Converted (saved AND Born again) and any unacceptable works are burned.

You teach Works are Cooperating....and Salvation depends on Cooperation of a born again man.....not true.

Cooperation of a man, IS the requirement OF A SINFUL UNCONVERTED man, TO BECOME Converted.

Reasonable service of ANY Converted man IS, to present his wholly Converted, holy, whole, body, soul, spirit TO the Lord.

Not every converted man will be discerning by Him nor applying knowledge given by Him unto him or her in following Him, but He still keeps them as saved and His... even former believers as part of the faithful saying about Him in 2 Timothy 2:13 but former believers are still called to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes at the pre great trib rapture event ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ). As it is, unrepentant saints are left behind as castaways and damned to be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House to testify to His faithfulness in keeping the souls of His saints left behind.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then get a black marker and cross James 2:19 out of your Bible. It illustrates the futility and uselessness of faith alone, faith in your faith. Justification by faith alone is a man made tradition, the verse has nothing to do with refuting OSAS. Faith without works is dead faith. James 2:24, which refutes "faith alone" stronger than James 2:19. It's not a slogan, it's scripture. JBFA is a slogan.

Justification is by faith alone.
It's a work done by God. We cannot contribute to it.
No amount of works will get us saved. From the beginning God has wanted our hearts.
Romans 3:25-26
Proverbs 23:28
Psalm 51:16-17

 

[BreadOfLife]

And nowhere in Heb 11 is the word "justification" found. In fact, it's only mentioned four times in the NT, and all these passages are OSAS.

Act 13:39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Rom 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Rom 5:16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.



And being baptized is through the Holy Spirit by believing and confessing only, not H2O. Only the blood of Jesus can wash away sin. BOL, you're not sacrificing goats for sin in your backyard are you?

Rev 7:14 "Sir," I answered, "you know." So he replied, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 12:11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

Again, you show a complete ignorance of Scripture - and this is ALL due to your cherry-picking of it.
Let's not forget about the following verses regarding WATER (H20) and Baptism . . .

Ezekiel 36:25
“I will sprinkle clean water (H20) upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”

John 3:5
"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water (H20) AND Spirit”.
He doesn't say "spiritual water" or "spirit-filled" water. He says water AND spirit.


Acts 10:47
"Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water (H2O). They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
These people had ALREADY received the Holy Spirit - but they STILL needed WATER (H2O) Baptism.
Water AND Spirit (John 3:5).

Now, read this next one CAREFULLY because I'm giving you the WHOLE context:
1 Pet. 3:19-22
After being made alive, he (Christ) went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water (H20), and this water (H20) symbolizes BAPTISM that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Water AND Spirit (John 3:5).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes.
Believe, then reject, yes is Apostasy.
Believe, Become Converted, THEN Apostate, is not possible.

And I've been waiting for thousands of posts on TWO threads now for a verse from you that proves this.
Ummmmm, I'm STILL waiting . . .

The fact is that I've given you no less than NINE passages that SQUASH your false doctrine.

No, that is not true.
A converted man Has Received Salvation and a Quickened spirit.
Part of a man BECOMING Converted is the mans WILLING CHOICE TO GIVE HIS LIFE TO CHRIST!
Christ MAINTAINS...."KEEPS" the man Converted, in Faith-FULLNESS to God Forever.
AFTER Conversion, what you do TO Glorify Gods Name, He shall reward you.
What you do that DOES NOT glorify Gods Name, shall be burned.
What you do that Trespasses Against men...
Gal 6:5
YOU have to deal with and suffer the consequences.

Maintenance of our secure state with God is ABSOLUTELY up to US.
This is what Paul means by "working out your salvation with fear and trembling."
God gives is the tools (grace, sacraments) - and WE either cooperate with them or reject them.

Apostasy isn't about faithless people becoming "more" faithless.
It's about faithful people LOSING faith.

He doesn't abandon US - it is WE that abandon HIM.
And that is what "Apostasy" is all about, Charlie Brown . . .

Absolutely God KEEPS the Converted man....Converted.
Jude 1:21
The Lord provides a Converted man with more knowledge, His Understanding, and His Power TO SERVE HIM according to His Desires.

A Gentiles mans WORKS ARE ONLY acceptable ONCE a man IS Converted (saved AND Born again) and IF any unacceptable works are burned.

You teach Works are Cooperating....and Salvation depends on Cooperation of a born again man.....not true.

Your use of Jude 1:21 absolutely PROVES my point that our security with God is up to US:

Jude 1:21
"...keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Notice that it DOESN'T say that GOD will keep you in His love.
It is an admonishment to COOPERATE with His grace.

 

[Nancy]

One verse Hebrews 3:12 kills your opinion on this issue.

Hi Ernest,
I myself have changed my views about this verse. Here is a small excerpt from a commentary from bibleref.com:
"It's especially important to see the full context of this verse, since it uses two particular Greek words, apistias and apostēnai. These are translated in the ESV as "unbelieving" and "fall away," respectively. Apostēnai is the word from which we get the term "apostasty," which means a rebellion or defiance of authority. It is most frequently used to describe those who completely leave the Christian faith. However, like most such terms, there are varied levels and meanings of "falling away." In this case, the meaning is that of sin and faithlessness, not open rejection of God.
Once again, the context makes it clear that salvation is not at stake. The Promised Land is not a metaphor for heaven—Israel's rescue from Egypt is the symbol of salvation. God's wrath against the Jewish people in the wilderness was not to send them back to Egypt (symbolizing a return to an un-saved state). Rather, it was to deny them the blessings of the promised inheritance. Parts of chapter 4 will further support the idea that the author is speaking of sin in the life of a saved believer, not the potential loss of salvation.
Context Summary
Hebrews 3:7–14 uses the example of Israel's forty years in the wilderness (Numbers 13—14) as a warning. This is directed at Christians who fail to ''hold fast'' their faith in God during persecution. Israel was saved from Egypt, as believers are saved from eternal death through salvation. Israel was offered the Promised Land, as believers are promised victory through our spiritual inheritance. Israel lost faith and didn't trust God against the ''giants'' of Canaan, as believers can be tempted to lose faith in the face of persecution. The ancient Israelites were not sent back to Egypt, just as God does not revoke the salvation of Christian believers. However, both can expect hardship and a loss of fellowship if they fail to trust in God.
Be blessed,
-nancy

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Justification is by faith alone.
It's a work done by God. We cannot contribute to it.
No amount of works will get us saved.

I am in agreement.

From the beginning God has wanted our hearts.
Romans 3:25-26
Proverbs 23:28
Psalm 51:16-17

None of those verses cites God has wanted our hearts.

I'm not sure where you get that from when scripture tells us our that which defiles us comes from the heart and comes out of our mouths.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man:....

But we can rest in that Jesus Christ can be in our hearts with His help.

2 Corinthians 4:6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

So if any one out there is fearing that they cannot give their sinful hearts to God, they can trust Him that He will give them a new heart to love Him.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Taken]

A repeated post after ten minutes? Is this evidence of a rupture in the space time continuum? Pardon the humor there.

Didn't see the humor. My replies are according to my disgression....oh and when God moves a cloud so I can stay connected on my phone.

It is possible to be seduced and led astray by false prophets ( 1 John 2:18-28 & Matthew 7:13-27 ) as well as false spirits. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

Of course, and have said so. That occurs when an UNConverted man does not bother to verify. He can be duped.

John 1:12-13 testifies how one is born again by believing in Him.

Yet, to NOT ignore what has already been Established .... True Belief from a mans heart and Confession of that True Belief.

It is up to His disciples to make disciples of new believers.

That is a Pleasing WORK a "prepared" man CAN do. When a man DOES such WORK, he shall be Rewarded BY God.

That has nothing to do with covernsion,

Well, yes it does. A converted man, is a man WITH the internal Power and Truth of God, who is Prepared to DO WORKDS that Please the Lord.

but running that race by faith in Jesus Christ.

^THAT has to do with what a Converted man DOES .... His own behavior and works.

That includes works of iniquity that denies Him and thus including apostasy and so a born again believer as in a converted believer can be led astray. [/It is the QUOTE]

A converted man Lead astray? From God? From Christ? From His Truth? NO!

Lest you forget, It is the Lords INDWELLING POWER that KEEPS a man UNTO HIM forever.

Unless you ask for forgiveness

Is the Lords FORGIVENESS insufficient, that you must ask Him over and over?

Do you ask the Lord to Forgive you for trespassing AGAINST men? Why? When He already taught, you as a man, go settle your differences/ trespasses Against men, with men.

and if God provides the opportunity, to make restitution, but otherwise, let it rest in Jesus that He has forgiven you as promised in 1 John 1:9.

Go settle your trespasses Against men. You bear the burden of restitution and consequence. Yes the Lord has Forgiven men as a part of their CONVERSION.

Not every converted man will be discerning by Him nor applying knowledge given by Him unto him or her in following Him, but He still keeps them as saved and His...

AGREE and have not said otherwise.

even former believers as part of the faithful saying about Him in 2 Timothy 2:13 but former believers are still called to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes at the pre great trib rapture event ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ).

No.
2 Tim 2:13
is about the Lord IS Faithful, even when a man is not.

2 Tim 2:18 - 21
is not about saved and born again men falling away. It is about men preaching other than the Lords Truth. And should such men STOP falsely preaching, they also can become saved, born again, sealed.

As it is, unrepentant saints are left behind as castaways and damned to be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House to testify to His faithfulness in keeping the souls of His saints left behind.

Uh no. Saints are they who ARE Converted and kept unto God by Christ, thee Power of God, forever.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

And I've been waiting for thousands of posts on TWO threads now for a verse from you that proves this.
Ummmmm, I'm STILL waiting . . .

The fact is that I've given you no less than NINE passages that SQUASH your false doctrine.

Maintenance of our secure state with God is ABSOLUTELY up to US.
This is what Paul means by "working out your salvation with fear and trembling."
God gives is the tools (grace, sacraments) - and WE either cooperate with them or reject them.

Apostasy isn't about faithless people becoming "more" faithless.
It's about faithful people LOSING faith.

He doesn't abandon US - it is WE that abandon HIM.
And that is what "Apostasy" is all about, Charlie Brown . . .

Your use of Jude 1:21 absolutely PROVES my point that our security with God is up to US:

Jude 1:21
"...keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Notice that it DOESN'T say that GOD will keep you in His love.

Uh, Keeping in Love was not the point.

Keeping one Converted, from every falling away was the point. See Jude 1:24


Jude 1:24
Psalm 121:5
Psalm 32:7
Psalm 121:3
Psalm 31:23
Psalm 97:10
Psalm 145:20
John 14:16

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Didn't see the humor. My replies are according to my disgression....oh and when God moves a cloud so I can stay connected on my phone.

That explains post #281 & 282. Thanks.

Of course, and have said so. That occurs when an UNConverted man does not bother to verify. He can be duped.

You mean when a converted man does not bother to verify since any believer can be duped. Otherwise, the warnings given to saved believers would fall flat if you are only giving the warnings to the unconverted sinners who has not believed in Him yet.

Yet, to NOT ignore what has already been Established .... True Belief from a mans heart and Confession of that True Belief.

Paul cites an error by which some had their faith overthrown in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 and I can see how that error can be "verified" by Matthew 27:52-53. So that is how and why former believers are still saved believers.

There are many that had their faith overthrown by the lies of that false science, the evolution theory, but they are still saved. They think the errors are verified in "science" but His words do not verified those errors as it is a false science that does not even pass the laws of science to be true, but many follow the white rabbit down the rabbit hole in following that false science that is the evolution theory as if evolutionists knows what they are talking about.... but they do not. They fail to see how the laws of science disprove the evolution theory from ever happening, ignoring how spontaneous generation has been disproven, but that is what the evolution theory is, as happening without man's observation, but by his imagination over millions of years ago and spread out through out unproven time periods.

So even a christian can search the matter to verify it, but by error when verifying by men, rather than by the Lord and His word.

Would you say that a pastor is a CONVERTED MAN? I had worked with a son whose father is a pastor that no longer believes because of the evolution theory. I left a book, "The Collapse of Evolution" by Huse but I do not know if the Lord had used that book to restore his faith in Him or not.

Anyway, I suppose it can be insulting when someone says that he never was saved or converted. It would be a cop out to say so when the Lord warned believers... not those seeking to be converted, but the converted believers about false prophets.

So I reckon you will need to verify with Him that what I have shared here with you, was Him saying so to you. I am nothing in His ministry.

 

[GodsGrace]

None of those verses cites God has wanted our hearts.

Here they are:

Romans 3:25-26
25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

We were discussing how God is the one who justifies us.

Psalms 51:16-17
16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

We were discussing how God wants our heart.

I'm not sure where you get that from when scripture tells us our that which defiles us comes from the heart and comes out of our mouths.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man:....

The Jews used the word Heart to mean the Soul.
What you describe above come from the soul, not the heart.
The heart pumps blood through the body.

But we can rest in that Jesus Christ can be in our hearts with His help.

2 Corinthians 4:6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

So if any one out there is fearing that they cannot give their sinful hearts to God, they can trust Him that He will give them a new heart to love Him.

Christ dwells in our spirit, not in our heart. It's just a way of speaking. And the spirit affects the soul.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Thanks for sharing.

Amen.

 

[Taken]

That explains post #281 & 282. Thanks.

:)

You mean when a converted man does not bother to verify since any believer can be duped.

No. I meant Not converted.
No. A converted believer can not be duped.
They have the Power of God IN THEM.

Otherwise, the warnings given to saved believers would fall flat if you are only giving the warnings to the unconverted sinners who has not believed in Him yet.

What warnings given to saved believers are you speaking of?

Paul cites an error by which some had their faith overthrown in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 and I can see how that error can be "verified" by Matthew 27:52-53. So that is how and why former believers are still saved believers.

Unconverted men;
...Can believe in their mind;
...AND Stop believing.
.....Can believe in their heart;
.....Will receive a measure of the gift of Faith
.........from the Lord.
..........AND CAN Stop believing.
..........AND WILL Stop receiving Faith.
..........THEY have fallen from Faith, fallen away.

Converted men;
...WHO....
Believe in their Heart;
Confess their Belief to the Lord;
Repent of their Sin of Disbelief;
SHALL Become FORGIVEN and Filled with Faith and Kept in Faith Forever, BY the Power of God.

There are many that had their faith overthrown by the lies of that false science, the evolution theory, but they are still saved. They think the errors are verified in "science" but His words do not verified those errors as it is a false science that does not even pass the laws of science to be true, but many follow the white rabbit down the rabbit hole in following that false science that is the evolution theory as if evolutionists knows what they are talking about.... but they do not. They fail to see how the laws of science disprove the evolution theory from ever happening, ignoring how spontaneous generation has been disproven, but that is what the evolution theory is, as happening without man's observation, but by his imagination over millions of years ago and spread out through out unproven time periods.

Converted men GIVE their life TO the Lord, and greater is He that is IN YOU, than he that is IN the World.

About Science...Which is at it very basic essence, IS Discovery. God instituted Science for man to Discover and Use for GOOD, all the treasures He provided in and on mans Earthly habitat. It has become corrupt, by mankind, through, greed, power, prestige, etc. as has everything God has provided for mankind's existence and well being on his earthly habitat.

So even a christian can search the matter to verify it, but by error when verifying by men, rather than by the Lord and His word.

The Lord has a very Unique Gift for a Converted man. Which is to say, A personal relationship with His God, and an Eager God desiring to give such a man HIS Spiritual Understanding of HIS own Word.

The KEY IS....with ALL of Gods Gifts, a man has to seek them, reach out and take them, ask, Let God know you read, you study, you desire to Know and Understand ACCORDING to His Under Understanding......NOT the World's....particularly after being WARNED repeatedly of the Philosophers and Corrupt and False Teachers that abound.

Would you say that a pastor is a CONVERTED MAN?

I would say a Title, is simply to relay an "impression", an "indication" of what another man "presents" himself "as".

TO flat out say....hey, this guy has a degree, an acknowledgement from other men that he is to be Titled.....a Pastor, Reverand, Priest, Vicar, etc..... thus that man IS Converted...
Eh, no. Titles are not the protocal for Conversion.

And "indication", yes, but there are FAKES and FRAUDS in every walk of life.

I had worked with a son whose father is a pastor that no longer believes because of the evolution theory. I left a book, "The Collapse of Evolution" by Huse but I do not know if the Lord had used that book to restore his faith in Him or not.

I know noone personally in that situation, but have heard of Pastors, some with quite a large congregation, announcing they never really believed.

Anyway, I suppose it can be insulting when someone says that he never was saved or converted. It would be a cop out to say so when the Lord warned believers... not those seeking to be converted, but the converted believers about false prophets.

Do you also consider when reading Scripture, the 11 Apostles were chosen by Jesus to go and do what Jesus started....seek the Lost Jews? Many Committed after hearing VERY LITTLE about Jesus. A couple of Sermons, a couple of Letters??

For them it was a bit different, than for a Gentile. "THEY" were learning HOW THEIR, 4,000 year old Laws "were applicable to them" with this NEW teaching OF their Messiah Christ Jesus.

It was sort of backward ...Commit, then learn how it all applies and fits together.

Gentiles on the other hand didn't have God, or the Word of God, or a Messiah....they had to learn ABOUT God and His Messiah....before they had a clue what they were Committing to.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

We were discussing how God wants our heart.

Yes!

Our Natural Life IS "our blood".
Gen 9:4

God "quickened" our life, with His Breath, BY Imparting a Living Soul into our Flesh Body.

And we who are "born", are born via a corrupt seed, thus have "corrupt blood" (ie our life) and promptly corrupt our soul IN our flesh body.

God REQUIRES the Life (our blood) of every earthly man.
Gen 9:5

For the man WHO from Confession From His true Hearts thoughts, "GIVES" his Life TO the Lord.....

The Lord CONVERTS the man ....
Forgives the man his corruption and Sin against God.
Killing his flesh, crucified with Christ.
Restores his soul, From Corruption.
Rebirths the mans natural spirit (truth) from a mans seed, to a Spiritual spirit (Gods Truth), from Gods Seed.

And thereafter Forever that man IS KEPT unto the Lord God Almighty in Faithfulness to Him only, BY His Power.

AND BTW...during the Conversion....that man is given a NEW HEART, where His NEW TRUTH, Christ the Lords Spirit Dwells,with the mans new spirit.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Uh, Keeping in Love was not the point.

Keeping one Converted, from every falling away was the point. See Jude 1:24

Jude 1:24
Psalm 121:5
Psalm 32:7
Psalm 121:3
Psalm 31:23
Psalm 97:10
Psalm 145:20
John 14:16

Let's take a closer look at these verses - shall we?

Jude 1:24
To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--
Of COURSE God is ABLE to keep us from stumbling - but that doesn't mean we won't stumble.
We stumble when we don't trust in him completely.

Psalm 121:5
The LORD watches over you-- the LORD is your shade at your right hand;
Of COURSE the Lord watches over us. That doesn't mean that we can't refuse His protection.
That's WHY we stumble

Psalm 32:7
You are my hiding place; you will protect me from trouble and surround me with songs of deliverance.
Of COURSE the Lord watches over us.
That doesn't mean we can't refuse His protection.

Psalm 121:3
He will not let your foot slip-- he who watches over you will not slumber;
Sooooo, David didn't stumble??
Samson didn't stumble?
Peter didn't Stumble??
Israel wasn't unfaithful to Him??

Psalm 31:23
Love the LORD, all his faithful people! The LORD preserves those who are true to him, but the proud he pays back in full.
Of COURSE the Lord preserves those who are TRUE to Him (faithful, obedient).
It's when we walk away from Him that we won't be preserved.

Psalm 97:10
Let those who love the Lord hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
Of COURSE the Lord guards the lives of His FAITHFUL (obedient) ones.
It's the UNFAITHFUL ones that have a problem . . .

Psalm 145:20
The LORD watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.
Of COURSE the Lord watches over those who LOVE Him.
It's when we STOP loving Him that we get ourselves into trouble . . .

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another to help you and be with you forever
And taking the CONTEXT of ALL of the verses above, we can conclude with certainty that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever - unless WE reject Him later . . .

As I have stated MANY times - CONTEXT is where you always fall off the tracks . . .

 

[epostle1]

Justification is by faith alone.
It's a work done by God. We cannot contribute to it.
No amount of works will get us saved. From the beginning God has wanted our hearts.
Romans 3:25-26
Proverbs 23:28
Psalm 51:16-17

Of course we are justified by faith, that is not contested. But faith alone is nowhere to be found in scripture, except James 2:24, where it is refuted. It's true that no amount of works will get us saved, but those are works done apart from the grace of Christ. Faith without works is dead. James 2:24.

Heb. 11:6 – faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace. But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Gal. 5:6 – the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I said:
Heb. 11:6 But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification

You're still on OT justification. The ancients in Heb 11:2 are OT.

The only way to receive the promise is through "the better covenent" which is through the blood of Christ. It's one thing to be commended for your faith, it's another to be saved through it.

Heb 7:22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

Heb 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

God bless.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Again, you show a complete ignorance of Scripture - and this is ALL due to your cherry-picking of it.
Let's not forget about the following verses regarding WATER (H20) and Baptism . . .

Ezekiel 36:25
“I will sprinkle clean water (H20) upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”

John 3:5
"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water (H20) AND Spirit”.
He doesn't say "spiritual water" or "spirit-filled" water. He says water AND spirit.


Acts 10:47
"Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water (H2O). They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
These people had ALREADY received the Holy Spirit - but they STILL needed WATER (H2O) Baptism.
Water AND Spirit (John 3:5).

Now, read this next one CAREFULLY because I'm giving you the WHOLE context:
1 Pet. 3:19-22
After being made alive, he (Christ) went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water (H20), and this water (H20) symbolizes BAPTISM that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Water AND Spirit (John 3:5).

Ezekiel 36:25 - Benson Commentary I will sprinkle clean water upon you — The expression here alludes to those legal purifications which were made by sprinkling water upon the unclean persons: see Numbers 8:7; Numbers 19:13. But the cleansing intended is plainly that of the soul, by the blood of Christ sprinkled upon men’s consciences to take away their guilt, (see Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 12:24,) and by the grace of the Holy Spirit sprinkled on the whole soul, to purify it from all corrupt inclinations and dispositions; both which blessings are received by faith in Christ, and in the promises of God made through him:

John 3:5 - Go to Biblehub commentaries and type in holy spirit, figurative, metaphorical and expression

Acts 10:47 - Go to Biblehub commentaries and type in holy spirit and expression

1 Pet. 3:19-22 - After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Stay away from the goats BOL, they ain't do nothin for ya. God bless

 

[APAK]

Hi Ernest,
I myself have changed my views about this verse. Here is a small excerpt from a commentary from bibleref.com:
"It's especially important to see the full context of this verse, since it uses two particular Greek words, apistias and apostēnai. These are translated in the ESV as "unbelieving" and "fall away," respectively. Apostēnai is the word from which we get the term "apostasty," which means a rebellion or defiance of authority. It is most frequently used to describe those who completely leave the Christian faith. However, like most such terms, there are varied levels and meanings of "falling away." In this case, the meaning is that of sin and faithlessness, not open rejection of God.
Once again, the context makes it clear that salvation is not at stake. The Promised Land is not a metaphor for heaven—Israel's rescue from Egypt is the symbol of salvation. God's wrath against the Jewish people in the wilderness was not to send them back to Egypt (symbolizing a return to an un-saved state). Rather, it was to deny them the blessings of the promised inheritance. Parts of chapter 4 will further support the idea that the author is speaking of sin in the life of a saved believer, not the potential loss of salvation.
Context Summary
Hebrews 3:7–14 uses the example of Israel's forty years in the wilderness (Numbers 13—14) as a warning. This is directed at Christians who fail to ''hold fast'' their faith in God during persecution. Israel was saved from Egypt, as believers are saved from eternal death through salvation. Israel was offered the Promised Land, as believers are promised victory through our spiritual inheritance. Israel lost faith and didn't trust God against the ''giants'' of Canaan, as believers can be tempted to lose faith in the face of persecution. The ancient Israelites were not sent back to Egypt, just as God does not revoke the salvation of Christian believers. However, both can expect hardship and a loss of fellowship if they fail to trust in God.
Be blessed,
-nancy

Excellent posy Nancy. Very insightful. Context and the correct parallels between the Covenants and Israel, and distinguishing the different types symbols woven into them are key: like, salvation, sin, belief, faith, apostacy and other expressions.

You have them down pat here.

You are on fire...I learned a few things from your explanation

APAK