Jesus never said he was God Almighty

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1stCenturyLady

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Seeing how John 16:13 reproves that the Holy Spirit cannot turn God's gift of tongues around for His own purpose of speaking His unspeakable intercessions is not funny at all.

Verse 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. -

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

You are really not making sense, and it is hard to put myself in your shoes who has his own thoughts, not of the Holy Spirit, and tries to make your own thoughts the authority. NO. There is only one God, and it isn't you.

That and 1 Corinthians 12:7-13 is proof that you are applying Paul's words wrong in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter.

If you are reading and you come to a chapter about oranges and the rules and definitions about oranges; but the Spirit has written another chapter about apples and the rules and definitions about apples, you cannot apply all the things about oranges, onto apples, or visa versa. They are two different fruit.

You are looking at the gifts of the Spirit of 1 Corinthians 12, which is limited only to oranges, and not even aware there is a whole chapter on apples that are completely different than oranges. The chapter about apples you disregard, Mark 16, and that is why you cannot see that 1 Corinthians 14 is a fruit salad, containing both fruit and comparing them. It is not all about oranges.




 
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JesusIsFaithful

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I am glad that you have put so much time and effort in this. If you continue to work in that direction maybe sometime God will speak to your heart about all of these things.

Sorry, but I will not answer you in every point, as we both know that you would not be changed by that. Only God give the increase but He will never press a person to change what he is has set in concrete. If a person is really in touch with God he will always be returning the lowest room because he has no doubts at all about God. He knows that God will be with him each step of the way and change him as change is needed. For me to go through each point would to you be me arguing my beliefs as me being right and you being wrong. I won't do that unless and until God wants me to walk that way for His reasons. I am listening to Him.

Give God the glory!

Seeing how you will be arguing against the plainness of scripture in proof that you are misapplying His words elsewhere, I can see why you will not be arguing the "point" that the Holy Spirit cannot pray from Himself in uttering His own intercessions as per John 16:13 in ALL Bible versions.

I know that the reproofs is not sticking to you because you do not want to believe that special thing you have that sets you apart from the average believer that do not pray in tongues as not of Him.

It does make me wonder how you can ever use scripture to prove anything or reprove anything when you do avoid it when it comes to reproofs towards tongues being used as a prayer language.

God wants you to pray. God does not need the Holy Spirit to pray through you to utter His own intercessions because they are unspeakable and unutterable for why Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit to give His unspoken intercessions to God the Father. That is why the Father already knows about everything going on BEFORE you ask Him in Matthew 6:7-8.


 

JesusIsFaithful

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Here is what I burst out laughing about. You said,

Thus leading into verse 13 about when a believer has tongues, that they were to pray while speaking in tongues that somebody else will interpret that tongue being manifested in the tongue speaker. Paul goes on to say that he would understand the tongue for why he is praying that someone will interpret the tongue while that tongue is manifested in him by the Holy Spirit.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. Not, somebody else; himself! ROFL

I understand why you would think that but again 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 testify that the Holy Spirit manifests the gifts dividing severally as He wills. Otherwise the tongue speaker does not need to pray if he is going to be able to interpret his own tongue which is an oxymoron because that would be like saying tongue speakers have no need of other if they can interpret their own tongue.

So that "he" that he may interpret is not the tongue speaker himself when 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 sets the precedent on how the Holy Spirit will divide severally the manifestations among the body of believers.

If you continue down in that chapter when it comes to prophesy, two or three prophesy and another judge, whereas it is not clear to you about tongues earlier where 2 or 3 speak in tongues one by one and one judges, meaning not of the ones speaking in tongues.

Otherwise, if a tongue speaker can interpret his own tongue, in according to the witness fact of John 8:17, it is not a true witness coming from that same person for why another has to interpret.

How easy would it be for someone to speak a second or even a third language and interpret it to mislead believers into thinking whatever he was saying is the word of God or the will of God to do? One can even prophesy in their normal language that the church is to give that man all the money the church has because he shall be like Joseph in managing the money when famine strikes. And bye bye.. that man is nowhere to be found. So even those who prophesy future events has to have two or three witnesses and ANOTHER to discern it in judging it as true or not. And if those three prophets came in with that judge, when neither has been members of the body of Christ that long in that church, the church should be suspicious.

So I understand you think it is funny but you ignored the precedent set in 1 Corinthians 12:7-13 for why it is not funny for why that he is not the tongue speaker himself that interprets. No way. That sets the slippery slope in how they are to prophesy.

What a twist! If you refuse to believe what it actually says so you can learn of God, then you have to add words to the written word to make it say what you - your own god - says. Humble yourself and come down off that silly throne of willful arrogance and false pride that makes you think you are above the Word of God and can make it say what you think it says.

And what is a twist? That you can receive self edification by tongues without interpretation? And yet you claim I am adding words to change the meaning of Paul's message when I have not changed it all when keeping in with the message about what God's gift of tongues are for? How ironic is that? You would defend what you do not know what that tongue without interpretation is doing but yet come down on me for applying His words rightly in the written word?

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.

Well here's one for you in proving you had missed the point of God's gift of tongues. If there is really all those benefits for tongues without interpretation, then Paul looks pretty stupid for exhorting believers to seek the gift of prophesy over tongues, because by that tongue without interpretation, a believer can have his own worship without needing any body else in the body for the Holy Spirit to minister to which goes against this verses in 1 Corinthians 12 th chapter.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many..........19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

And that is proof as to why you are not reading Paul's words rightly in the 14th chapter. No way is that "he" being the tongue speaker seeking to interpret his own tongue.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Verse 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. -

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

You are really not making sense, and it is hard to put myself in your shoes who has his own thoughts, not of the Holy Spirit, and tries to make your own thoughts the authority. NO. There is only one God, and it isn't you.

How can you prove that? By telling me what John 16:13 is talking about WITHOUT glossing over any of the words in that verse in making your point. Look at John 16:13 in all Bible versions to see that truth on how the Holy Spirit WILL NOT SPEAK but He will will only speak what He hears.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

You can go to Bible Gateway at this link to search other versions.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 16:13&version=KJV;NIV

If you are reading and you come to a chapter about oranges and the rules and definitions about oranges; but the Spirit has written another chapter about apples and the rules and definitions about apples, you cannot apply all the things about oranges, onto apples, or visa versa. They are two different fruit.

You are looking at the gifts of the Spirit of 1 Corinthians 12, which is limited only to oranges, and not even aware there is a whole chapter on apples that are completely different than oranges. The chapter about oranges you disregard, Mark 16, and that is why you cannot see that 1 Corinthians 14 is a fruit salad, containing both fruit and comparing them. It is not all about oranges.

Paul sets the precedent in 1 Corinthians 12th chapter for how you are to read and understand his message in the 14th chapter about the use of tongues, and it can never be for private use.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many...........19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Tongue speakers are the ones separating themselves from the body of Christ as they have gained that tongue by another calling which is apostasy.
 

Taken

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I do understand what your position is here. I guess I 'saw' something not there in the previous post.

I agree with your initial statement in your post here,

if you mean that God's spirit created

No.

and formed the human being

No.

...God's spirit also resided with Jesus' own unique spirit since his conception.

No.

He is begotten of God

Yes. He came forth out from God.

and a complete human being,

No.

the son of man

Yes.

Jesus became a natural believer in God from conception - the one and only from birth.

No.

The Lord, God Almighty, YWHW are the same person, not three...

Yes.

Would be okay with discussing point by point, each thing I disagree with you, and why.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Nancy

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No argument. But I would clarify. I simply see two things, that which is carnal and that which is spiritual. In the OT the carnal ways of men affected their connection or lack thereof with God. But, nearly all or all of that related directly or indirectly to the spiritual connection with God. All of that, or nearly all of that was a type and/or shadow of the ultimate connection with God. As to blood, without blood no man can live physically. What I am saying is to...

"The Greek word translated as “breathed out” in 2 Timothy 3:16 is theopneustos, and Scripture is the only thing described as such by the Apostles. Thus, Scripture has a unique character as the voice and words of the Lord. It uniquely serves as God’s special revelation, as His inspired and revealed will for His people. Nothing else today is theopneustos, so we can point to nothing but Scripture as the Word of God."

I looked up theopneustos in Strongs, Vines and Helps concordances/expository and HELPS Word-studies...all say the same...see? You got me to studying! lol. Just my nickel :)
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/god-breathed-scripture/


















we are dead. All of us were dead to God when born to our carnal mothers. Some of us took hold of the Life Jesus brought and are no longer dead to God. Without the Holy Spirit in us we are dead to God.
No argument. But I would clarify. I simply see two things, that which is carnal and that which is spiritual. In the OT the carnal ways of men affected their connection or lack thereof with God. But, nearly all or all of that related directly or indirectly to the spiritual connection with God. All of that, or nearly all of that was a type and/or shadow of the ultimate connection with God.

As to blood, without blood no man can live physically. What I am saying is to consider the spiritual blood as the Holy Spirit in us. Without the spiritual blood we are dead. All of us were dead to God when born to our carnal mothers. Some of us took hold of the Life Jesus brought and are no longer dead to God. Without the Holy Spirit in us we are dead to God.
 

bbyrd009

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"The Greek word translated as “breathed out” in 2 Timothy 3:16 is theopneustos, and Scripture is the only thing described as such by the Apostles."

i could list a page of "Scriptural" refs that are not in the Bible but referred to in It. So while the statement might be technically true--which it is not if Paul is considered an "Apostle" anyway--it is only bc the term "apostles" is being relied on, or that "Scripture" has been defined as "Bible."

"I looked up theopneustos in Strongs, Vines and Helps concordances/expository and HELPS Word-studies...all say the same...see?"

Obv we can Quote Christ and Paul quoting extra-biblical sources as Scripture, ergo they do not know what they are talking about. Strong's has been outed long time ago, for instance. Jannes and Jambres, the Gospel of Thomas, these are "Scripture" too.

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Bible_Commentary/God_Breathed.html#.WzvL8dJKiUk
 
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1stCenturyLady

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How can you prove that? By telling me what John 16:13 is talking about WITHOUT glossing over any of the words in that verse in making your point. Look at John 16:13 in all Bible versions to see that truth on how the Holy Spirit WILL NOT SPEAK but He will will only speak what He hears.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

You can go to Bible Gateway at this link to search other versions.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 16:13&version=KJV;NIV



Paul sets the precedent in 1 Corinthians 12th chapter for how you are to read and understand his message in the 14th chapter about the use of tongues, and it can never be for private use.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many...........19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Tongue speakers are the ones separating themselves from the body of Christ as they have gained that tongue by another calling which is apostasy.

I am curious. Do you believe God still gives these gifts? Your understanding is so skewed. You seem to think a person with the gift of tongues, cannot also receive the gift of interpretation of tongues. If that were the case, then a prophet couldn't speak in tongues. A healer couldn't prophesy. An interpreter of tongues, couldn't also speak in tongues. And none of these could receive the gift of faith or discernment of spirits. See what I mean? Skewed big time!
 

JesusIsFaithful

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I am curious. Do you believe God still gives these gifts? Your understanding is so skewed. You seem to think a person with the gift of tongues, cannot also receive the gift of interpretation of tongues. If that were the case, then a prophet couldn't speak in tongues. A healer couldn't prophesy. An interpreter of tongues, couldn't also speak in tongues. And none of these could receive the gift of faith or discernment of spirits. See what I mean? Skewed big time!

Did you not read the scripture below or not?

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many...........19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

That means the moment the Holy Spirit manifest tongues in one believer, He is not going to manifest the interpretation of that tongue in that same believer where that tongue just came from.

Yes... the Holy Spirit can manifest other gifts in the tongue speaker at other time but not interpretation for that tongue coming from that tongue speaker at that moment. No way. There is no wiggle room for that, sister.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Yes... the Holy Spirit can manifest other gifts in the tongue speaker at other time but not interpretation for that tongue coming from that tongue speaker at that moment. No way. There is no wiggle room for that, sister.

That is your god talking. Stop it. Listen to Paul, and stop adding your words into his mouth!

Answer the question. Do you believe these gifts and signs are for us today, or not? If you do, do you speak in tongues?
 
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Nancy

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Here is what I burst out laughing about. You said,

Thus leading into verse 13 about when a believer has tongues, that they were to pray while speaking in tongues that somebody else will interpret that tongue being manifested in the tongue speaker. Paul goes on to say that he would understand the tongue for why he is praying that someone will interpret the tongue while that tongue is manifested in him by the Holy Spirit.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. Not, somebody else; himself! ROFL

What a twist! If you refuse to believe what it actually says so you can learn of God, then you have to add words to the written word to make it say what you - your own god - says. Humble yourself and come down off that silly throne of willful arrogance and false pride that makes you think you are above the Word of God and can make it say what you think it says.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.


"Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem." Lol...People really seem to want to be the one who is right. Yes, I too have been there many times, anymore I just want verify the things (doctrins/beliefs) that I have come to understand a certain way. I will now be

Here is what I burst out laughing about. You said,

Thus leading into verse 13 about when a believer has tongues, that they were to pray while speaking in tongues that somebody else will interpret that tongue being manifested in the tongue speaker. Paul goes on to say that he would understand the tongue for why he is praying that someone will interpret the tongue while that tongue is manifested in him by the Holy Spirit.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. Not, somebody else; himself! ROFL

What a twist! If you refuse to believe what it actually says so you can learn of God, then you have to add words to the written word to make it say what you - your own god - says. Humble yourself and come down off that silly throne of willful arrogance and false pride that makes you think you are above the Word of God and can make it say what you think it says.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.

""Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem." Lol...People really seem to want to be the one who is right. Yes, I too have been there many times, anymore I just want verify the things (doctrines/beliefs) that I have come to understand a certain way. But if Scripture clearly verifies something I am firm on...then yeah, I would def. be tempted to "correct" what I think erroneous teaching that is core to our beliefs.
Be blessed,
-nancy
 

Nancy

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@Nancy

The above post of Amadeus's quote is blank...were you going to make a comment???

:D
Probably was Helen, I sometimes cannot get myself out of a paper bag! :rolleyes: I will have to read read the post and see if anything jogs!
 

1stCenturyLady

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"Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem." Lol...People really seem to want to be the one who is right. Yes, I too have been there many times, anymore I just want verify the things (doctrins/beliefs) that I have come to understand a certain way. I will now be



""Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem." Lol...People really seem to want to be the one who is right. Yes, I too have been there many times, anymore I just want verify the things (doctrines/beliefs) that I have come to understand a certain way. But if Scripture clearly verifies something I am firm on...then yeah, I would def. be tempted to "correct" what I think erroneous teaching that is core to our beliefs.
Be blessed,
-nancy

I love James 1:5-7 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
 
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Nancy

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I love James 1:5-7 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Lately, I have been feeling a bit distant from God. I know it is my attitude of late...I am and have been stuck in my bedroom for 4 weeks and have 3 more to go...no weight bearing on left foot. That's neither here nor there but...my prayers have turned weak and IMO ineffective as am having very hard time being fervent and I KNOW that is the kind He hears. I also am aware that satan is having ball with me right now, I know this yet, still find it hard to get back to fervent God willed prayer! I have always (well, not ALWAYS lol) prayed for His wisdom to make proper choices in this life, to be a better steward of His money, time, belongings etc. Sorry, went off topic a bit here, lol.
 
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