Eternal Security

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Yes
Yes

Good. I would now like to look at a specific King in the Old Testament, with you. Then I would like to look at a specific couple in the NT in the book of Acts with you as well in the light of the previous questions and answers. Ready?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Good. I would now like to look at a specific King in the Old Testament, with you. Then I would like to look at a specific couple in the NT in the book of Acts with you as well in the light of the previous questions and answers. Ready?

Sorry but no.
I'm going to church for prayer group
Then I'm going swimming for therapy
Go ahead and write and I'll check it later this afternoon.

 

[bbyrd009]

Little children, do not be deceived

 

[Helen]

That sort of looks like a pastor I know.

Hahahaha!!!
Thanks...

 

[Helen]

Oh Helen,
These posts gave me a good laugh!
And look what a good job BC did...he must have a photo shop program.
Lucky him.

Amazing what Christians can do when they get together and put their mind to it!

I agree, so funny....I am glad that some of us here can maybe get annoyed when someone doesn't understand what we are trying to say in serious threads...but we also know how to 'play and laugh' together too.

 

[Helen]

Good. I would now like to look at a specific King in the Old Testament, with you. Then I would like to look at a specific couple in the NT in the book of Acts with you as well in the light of the previous questions and answers. Ready?

well it obviously didn't get 'written' !!??

 

[amadeus]

why do you say that? "if he has the foundation."
i'm trying to develop the same argument, but i don't see it in that passage.
Also i get the impression that "saved as through a fire" means like "barely," but ppls def of "saved" is so whacked now i prolly won't bother with that

I detailed this yesterday on another thread: "Upon This Rock I will build my church". I will copy and paste it to here:

Of course the Rock is the proper Foundation. Remember Jesus spoke of it here:

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was
the fall of it" Matt 7:25-27

The Foundation or Rock is most certainly Jesus:

"And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also." Num 20:11

What did Moses do that was so wrong? Why was it by striking the Rock instead of speaking to it was it that he was denied entrance into the Promised Land?

"Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?" Matt 26:67-68

Then again see the Foundation:

"For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." I Cor 3:9-11

Does that help? Remember the foundation also does not burn. Remember the three Hebrews who went through the fiery furnace of Nebuchadnezzar? Daniel 3

 

[bbyrd009]

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was
the fall of it" Matt 7:25-27

so then the premise is that this guy had the foundation, right, and is somehow different from what we would prolly consider "lost" now?

 

[Wrigley]

why do you say that? "if he has the foundation."
i'm trying to develop the same argument, but i don't see it in that passage.
Also i get the impression that "saved as through a fire" means like "barely," but ppls def of "saved" is so whacked now i prolly won't bother with that

Don't get what you are trying to say.

My understanding is that the judgement of works are works that add to or detract from the foundation of Jesus in a belivers life.

For me the foundation is salvation through faith and the grace of God in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

When I say faith I mean true saving faith and not mental assent.

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

So to add anything above and over that are works that will be judged.
A simple example being given Ephesians above is to say that our works save us, or that we have to do this or that to be saved.

So they could be wood/Hubble/Straw.
Those things are not necessarily evil, because if they were then being burned up and still saved, I think would not apply.

If however the purpose of such works are for self gain or to intentionally harm/detract a child of God then those are evil works.

Walking with others to encourage them to grow in their walk with Jesus and be like Jesus may be wood/Hubble/Straw but if the intention is good then those works will be burned but we will still be saved.

I'm not sure I have explained it as well as someone else could but if anyone else wants to refute or add or explain it better please do so.

I hope I make and sense.

 

[bbyrd009]

Don't get what you are trying to say.

ah; i restated it kinda below that,

so then the premise is that this guy had the foundation, right, and is somehow different from what we would prolly consider "lost" now?

how does the fool have the foundation, in your opinion?

 

[amadeus]

so then the premise is that this guy had the foundation, right, and is somehow different from what we would prolly consider "lost" now?

Without the proper Foundation anything we build will not stand the stress or pressure. The Foundation is Jesus. If we do have Jesus, really, and hold onto Him we are assured of our place. A house can be rebuilt on the same good solid foundation, but the house is NOT the foundation. If we build a house of straw like that one little pig, we know what happens when the big bad wolf comes.

Can we lose Jesus? We can walk away from the Foundation and start to build again in another place on sand not having learned our lesson. Has anyone ever done that? It is certainly a bad idea, but I believe it has been and can be done.

 

[Episkopos]

Without the proper Foundation anything we build will not stand the stress or pressure. The Foundation is Jesus. If we do have Jesus, really, and hold onto Him we are assured of our place. A house can be rebuilt on the same good solid foundation, but the house is NOT the foundation. If we build a house of straw like that one little pig, we know what happens when the big bad wolf comes.

Can we lose Jesus? We can walk away from the Foundation and start to build again in another place on sand not having learned our lesson. Has anyone ever done that? It is certainly a bad idea, but I believe it has been and can be done.

I think it is rather easy considering how we tend towards lukewarmness unless we are active in our pursuits. Those who are at ease have ceased to watch and pray as they ought.

Isn't it natural for water to become room temperature...or lukewarm. So we need to stay connected and vigorous in our times with God.

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

Don't get what you are trying to say.

My understanding is that the judgement of works are works that add to or detract from the foundation of Jesus in a belivers life.

For me the foundation is salvation through faith and the grace of God in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

I would say rather that Jesus is the foundation, but we have to have Him, rather than the Nehushtan of II Kings 18:4. The serpent saved people who were bitten by poisonous snakes back in Num 21:8ff. Jesus healed and saved people when he walked the streets of Jerusalem 2000 years ago, but there are too many people today who treat Jesus as the serpent was treated in II Kings. Their foundation is a powerless dead idol instead of a healing saving Savior.

If we really have the real Thing and do not allow it to be changed in us then something good can be built on it that will endure [made of gold, silver or precious stones] rather than something that be burned up by the fire [made of wood, hay or stubble].

But the key is the foundation. The key is Jesus, the real Jesus rather than any Nehushtan. Without the real Jesus is it even possible to build anything good, never mind what materials are used? Could a builder even have access to good materials without the good foundation?

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

well it obviously didn't get 'written' !!??

I was waiting for RT to respond, and then to come back. I can share in a few.

 

[amadeus]

I think it is rather easy considering how we tend towards lukewarmness unless we are active in our pursuits. Those who are at ease have ceased to watch and pray as they ought.

Isn't it natural for water to become room temperature...or lukewarm. So we need to stay connected and vigorous in our times with God.

Absolutely! It never became a smooth easy road without bumps for Jesus; nor for Stephen; nor for the apostle Paul. Too many people want the best of both worlds without giving anything they happen to like according to their carnal flesh. We are always walking on water and as long as our eyes are always on Jesus we will not sink and drown.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is the biggest stumbling block for the unsaved. How can eternal life be the free gift of God's grace to the one who believes on Christ, when there are no free lunches on earth? But that is the glory of God's grace. And the price was paid at Calvary.

The rules of Earth and the rules of heaven, come from two different rule books.
No use trying to compare them.
God's ways are not our ways....

 

[Helen]

@bbyrd009

I would say rather that Jesus is the foundation, but we have to have Him, rather than the Nehushtan of II Kings 18:4. The serpent saved people who were bitten by poisonous snakes back in Num 21:8ff. Jesus healed and saved people when he walked the streets of Jerusalem 2000 years ago, but there are too many people today who treat Jesus as the serpent was treated in II Kings. Their foundation is a powerless dead idol instead of a healing saving Savior.

If we really have the real Thing and do not allow it to be changed in us then something good can be built on it that will endure [made of gold, silver or precious stones] rather than something that be burned up by the fire [made of wood, hay or stubble].

But the key is the foundation. The key is Jesus, the real Jesus rather than any Nehushtan. Without the real Jesus is it even possible to build anything good, never mind what materials are used? Could a builder even have access to good materials without the good foundation?

Excellent Post!!!

 

[Helen]

I was waiting for RT to respond, and then to come back. I can share in a few.

You will get used to him...we comes and he goes...but thankfully ...he comes again.

 

[Wrigley]

Without the proper Foundation anything we build will not stand the stress or pressure. The Foundation is Jesus. If we do have Jesus, really, and hold onto Him we are assured of our place. A house can be rebuilt on the same good solid foundation, but the house is NOT the foundation. If we build a house of straw like that one little pig, we know what happens when the big bad wolf comes.

So are you saying that the foundation built on is us building on it?
If so I'm not so sure given the context of the whole passage.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

So for me it's what we teach over and above the foundation that is laid and on which we stand which is Jesus

3:16, 17 Do you not know: This phrase, found in nine other places in 1 Corinthians (5:6; 6:2, 3, 9, 15, 16, 19; 9:13, 24), always introduces an indisputable statement. temple: There are two words translated temple in the NT. One refers to the temple building and all its courts; the other refers strictly to the Most Holy Place where no one but the high priest could go. Paul uses the latter term to describe the local church, in whom God dwells. Unlike 6:19, where the word temple refers to the individual believer, and Eph. 2:21, where the word speaks of the church universal, these verses speak of the local church as God’s temple. God takes very seriously our actions in the church. destroy: Any person who disrupts and destroys the church by divisions, malice, and other harmful acts invites God’s discipline (see 11:30–32).

You say

The key is Jesus, the real Jesus rather than any Nehushtan.

Not sure what you mean by Nehustan.

Can you explain that to me please.

 

[Wrigley]

Can we lose Jesus? We can walk away from the Foundation and start to build again in another place on sand not having learned our lesson. Has anyone ever done that? It is certainly a bad idea, but I believe it has been and can be done.

Not sure what you mean by that either.

Are you saying we can lose our salvation?