Eternal Security

[Stranger]

Of course my motivation is keeping the law.
Do YOU want to break the laws of God?

But what IS the motivation to keep the law?
Is it fear?
Is it love?

If someone loves God and keeps the law he is heaven-bound.
If someone fears God and keeps the law he is heaven-bound.

Love is better,,,but either one will get the person to heaven.

Where is YOUR method laid out in scripture?
You posted some verses in your post before this and I showed you how it didn't even prove what you said by highlighting some verses.

John 3:17-21 Jesus said:
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

First of all, God DOES appreciate good deeds, just our "believing" is not enough.
Second of all, what does BELIEVE mean anyway?

Does is mean we ARE to be obedient, or does it mean we are NOT to be obedient?

And because keeping the law is your motivation, you are walking under law.

Of course I don't want to break God's Laws. I am neither trying to break or keep the 10 commandments.

Believe means 'believe'.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

I think we can all agree that obedience to God is very important, but there is def a difference between being obedient under the Law and being obedient under faith. In the O.T., it was required under threat of death, did not matter what the state of the persons heart was. Now, we are under a NEW covenant, one of grace and, we obey, not because it is commanded but because of our gratitude for what Jesus has done for us makes us want to obey. Jesus removed the curses of the law, but the blessings remain.
---Moses Laws were strictly based on the peoples "performance"- they had to DO good to get good. This was shown over and over again in the O.T.-human beings could not keep the Law-they were-everyone unable to.
If we think of the significance of just what Jesus did for us, it is very hard to not want to obey, we are to have grateful hearts, to obey from the heart. We will find rest, and peace in Him, because our obedience isn't based on what we do, but what He did for us. And...good (true) works, will naturally flow from us to others when we have that kind of gratitude. He lifted that huge yoke of bondage and gave us a much lighter load.
So, no, I am and never have been "under the law".
PS-God never changes, but He sure changed His covenant at great cost.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know by the words you speak, or write.

When you say 'we are required to obey the law' then you have moved from walking in the Spirit to being under the Law.

You break the Law every day. Don't you? Is there a day you completely obey the Law? What is your timeline of how long you go before you break the Law? So are you still saved? When you break the Law, what does God say? 'one out of 10 aint bad'.

Stranger

Are YOU not required to obey the law because you walk with God?

 

[GodsGrace]

And because keeping the law is your motivation, you are walking under law.

Of course I don't want to break God's Laws. I am neither trying to break or keep the 10 commandments.

Believe means 'believe'.

Stranger

No Stranger.
Believe does not mean believe.

And therein lies the problem...
Believe means to have faith...
To have faith means to obey...

In Mathew 28:20 JESUS tells His Apostles to teach all nations to observe what Jesus has commanded them...

Jesus is saying we have to observe what He taught...not me.
20"teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

So, WHY are you so afraid to admit that JESUS said we are to observe all that HE commanded us??

And, for those interested, there is much to learn in the word BELIEVE and FAITH.

Does those who obey him just mean believe (not reject him) in Hebrews 5:9

To Believe means to Obey John 3:16

IMPORTANT! What Is The Believe In Jesus Meaning of Saving Faith

Q/A: Believe or Obey?

BELIEVE MEANS TO OBEY.


John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Maybe we should stop speaking as though obedience is optional?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we can all agree that obedience to God is very important, but there is def a difference between being obedient under the Law and being obedient under faith. In the O.T., it was required under threat of death, did not matter what the state of the persons heart was. Now, we are under a NEW covenant, one of grace and, we obey, not because it is commanded but because of our gratitude for what Jesus has done for us makes us want to obey. Jesus removed the curses of the law, but the blessings remain.
---Moses Laws were strictly based on the peoples "performance"- they had to DO good to get good. This was shown over and over again in the O.T.-human beings could not keep the Law-they were-everyone unable to.
If we think of the significance of just what Jesus did for us, it is very hard to not want to obey, we are to have grateful hearts, to obey from the heart. We will find rest, and peace in Him, because our obedience isn't based on what we do, but what He did for us. And...good (true) works, will naturally flow from us to others when we have that kind of gratitude. He lifted that huge yoke of bondage and gave us a much lighter load.
So, no, I am and never have been "under the law".
PS-God never changes, but He sure changed His covenant at great cost.

Obedience is not "very important".
It's required.

No one I know of these days is under the law.
If some want to comfort themselves by saying that they walk in the spirit, so be it.

Walking in the spirit doe NOT mean we are not to obey the law.
Paul said to walk in the spirit and you will not gratify the flesh.
Galatians 5:16
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Jesus obeyed the Father and since we are to emulate Jesus, then we also must obey the Father. The cross did not abolish our need to obey God, the cross only made it possible.

God demands obedience from Genesis to Revelation.

Deuteronomy 11:1
1 Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

John 14:15 Jesus said:
15 “If you love me, keep my commands."

Romans 5:1 The Obedience of Faith
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for His name’s sake.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Great way of explaining this!
Yes, of course I know the difference.

But the New Covenant goes even further than that...
The Mosaic Covenant did not give us the POWER to keep the commandments...
they must still be kept, but now we have the power to keep them.

I've often said that not only did Jesus not abolish the moral law, He increased it...brought it to the level of the heart...our heart has to change, not just the doing or not doing of something because of a law.

We don't lie because our heart tells us not to...
not because our mind tells us not to because it'll get us into trouble with God.

Who wants to break them? As I've said, when you LOVE by the power of the Spirit you don't, dishonor parents, steal, kill, commit adultery, lie or covet. Anytime examples of the commandments of the 10C are listed in the NT they are always of the last 6, and are being compared to the law of liberty. Ever wonder why the first four are not? It is because all of these are covered under believing in the name of His Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is the substance of the Sabbath. He is our rest. We worship Him, not idols or other gods. If you choose to hold up the Sabbath Day instead, that is up to you, but that is not entering into "God's rest" - grace. In fact, Paul says, "you've fallen from grace."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Now, @Nancy and @1stCenturyLady lady gave you a like,,,and yet I know for sure that they also believe in following the commandments of God.

As for me, you are right, and you are wrong. It's not the commandments that are wrong, but the way we keep them are polar opposites.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

John 14:15 Jesus said:
15 “If you love me, keep my commands."

Do you still believe the Ten Commandments were the focal point of Jesus' ministry? Is that what He means when He says, "If you love me, keep my commands"?

 

[Stranger]

Are YOU not required to obey the law because you walk with God?

No, as I am not under law.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

No Stranger.
Believe does not mean believe.

And therein lies the problem...
Believe means to have faith...
To have faith means to obey...

In Mathew 28:20 JESUS tells His Apostles to teach all nations to observe what Jesus has commanded them...

Jesus is saying we have to observe what He taught...not me.
20"teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

So, WHY are you so afraid to admit that JESUS said we are to observe all that HE commanded us??

And, for those interested, there is much to learn in the word BELIEVE and FAITH.

Does those who obey him just mean believe (not reject him) in Hebrews 5:9

To Believe means to Obey John 3:16

IMPORTANT! What Is The Believe In Jesus Meaning of Saving Faith

Q/A: Believe or Obey?

BELIEVE MEANS TO OBEY.


John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Maybe we should stop speaking as though obedience is optional?

Believe doesn't mean obey. It means believe. You are making faith a product of the Law.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Who wants to break them? As I've said, when you LOVE by the power of the Spirit you don't, dishonor parents, steal, kill, commit adultery, lie or covet. Anytime examples of the commandments of the 10C are listed in the NT they are always of the last 6, and are being compared to the law of liberty. Ever wonder why the first four are not? It is because all of these are covered under believing in the name of His Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is the substance of the Sabbath. He is our rest. We worship Him, not idols or other gods. If you choose to hold up the Sabbath Day instead, that is up to you, but that is not entering into "God's rest" - grace. In fact, Paul says, "you've fallen from grace."

What makes you think I keep the Sabbath?

And again, yes, the first four are not mentioned because they're covered by our love for Jesus.

So because we love Jesus, it's not correct to say we must obey God?

 

[GodsGrace]

As for me, you are right, and you are wrong. It's not the commandments that are wrong, but the way we keep them are polar opposites.

As long as we keep them,,,

 

[Enoch111]

Believe doesn't mean obey. It means believe...

If believing does not result in (1) obedience to the Gospel followed by (2) obedience to the commandments of Christ, it is simply SHAM BELIEVING.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1:22)

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you still believe the Ten Commandments were the focal point of Jesus' ministry? Is that what He means when He says, "If you love me, keep my commands"?

Yes.
Not only were they the focal point of HOW we are to remain in the Kingdom of God,
He preached about the commandments more than about salvation.

Check please. Jesus spoke about being saved 4 or 5 times...
He spoke about the Kingdom of God and how to belong to it about 100 times.

You can check this out for yourself.

Jesus meant what He said...
IF you LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

Not any better way of saying it than how He did.

John 14:23-26
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
25“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.
26“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.


Not only are the words of Jesus the words THE FATHER GAVE to Him, but Jesus wants us to remember all that He has said to us.

WHAT has He said to us?

He spent over 3 years just telling us to believe in Him and believe only means believe as @Stranger says??

 

[GodsGrace]

No, as I am not under law.

Stranger

I have some sad news for you Stranger, and anyone else reading along who believes they are saved and are not required to obey the law....

God insists that we obey the law.

Please show me a verse or two where Jesus advises us that it's OK not to follow the law.

Thanks.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What makes you think I keep the Sabbath?

And again, yes, the first four are not mentioned because they're covered by our love for Jesus.

So because we love Jesus, it's not correct to say we must obey God?

Just to clarify. If you don't keep the Sabbath, but at the same time believe you must, is that obeying God? You are not doing what you believe. Or do you understand that we are not under the Sabbath law? But do you understand why?

 

[GodsGrace]

Believe doesn't mean obey. It means believe. You are making faith a product of the Law.

Stranger

Really.
And since when do YOU make up your very own brand of Christianity?
Did you bother to read the links I posted?
Probably not....you'd find out that ...
BELIEVE means OBEY.

There's still time you know.
You could still learn something new.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

As long as we keep them,,,

Do you understand that a law of a learned ritual is not written on the heart? We naturally keep the ones that ARE written on our hearts.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

BELIEVE means OBEY.

Yes, but out of a new nature. We must have the baptism of the Holy Spirit that changes us from the inside out, so out of our new nature we obey naturally. (The old nature disobeys naturally - just the opposite.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Just to clarify. If you don't keep the Sabbath, but at the same time believe you must, is that obeying God? You are not doing what you believe. Or do you understand that we are not under the Sabbath law? But do you understand why?

I understand more than you think...you should stop asking me if I understand things.

What makes you think I BELIEVE I must keep the Sabbath?

And if I did, I would. I don't know where you get your ideas from.