Eternal Security

[Stranger]

ROFL You've just made the opposite point.

ONEPWX. ?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

"Under the law" means under its condemnation. No one in Messiah Yeshua comes under condemnation or a curse. I don't know why you would say such a thing except to scare people into not keeping the Sabbath Day holy. Sabbath keepers are NOT under the law any more than Sunday keepers who do not steal or commit adultery. You can't seem to believe that the Sabbath can be obeyed out of love for our Father without seeking to be justified or saved by it.

(Gal. 3:10) "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:..."

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Is the reply "no"? If so, why?

ah no, the reply was "look at what you have done" or something? Iow the Q was not even pertinent, it was an obvious deflection, "no, you are your brother's murderer" maybe.

So i dunno about "no" either, and i don't mean to disagree with your reasoning there, as there is surely a sense in which we are our brother's "keeper" also; but as far as your responsibility to your brother's keeping Sabbath, imo it should not be a problem for you if he does not, and you have already "kept" your brother there when you repeat the words of the prophets on the matter imo. I don't think you can be required to make him hear them either, right? :)

i mean kudos for trying, don't get me wrong, but codependency is really hard to get a handle on, and i just saw another illustration of it in your "problem" wadr. Not sure i'm making it any clearer this time either tho, lol, but it should be a problem for them right, not you?

Or you might outline your next steps to address this problem, since we're just spitballing now, and the point might become clearer. You can dissociate from their nation w/o parting as enemies or even "with a problem" iow, at least i think. It is bc they are associated as being in your nation that you have a problem so to speak, right? And of course you do in that sense have a problem, too, no denying it. A man's enemies will be those of his own house, a house divided cannot stand, and all that rot

The cure imo is leave that nation, not expect anyone in that nation to suddenly begin hearing the prophets, and maybe condemning them if they do not or whatever, even shunning them etc.

 

[gadar perets]

(Gal. 3:10) "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:..."

Stranger

The context surrounding verse 10 is justification by faith vs. justification by law. If I was seeking to be justified by my Sabbath keeping, I would be cursed. However, I am justified by my faith in Messiah Yeshua. My works are simply a fruit of my faith and without works my faith would be dead.

 

[gadar perets]

So i dunno about "no" either, and i don't mean to disagree with your reasoning there, as there is surely a sense in which we are our brother's "keeper" also; but as far as your responsibility to your brother's keeping Sabbath, imo it should not be a problem for you if he does not, and you have already "kept" your brother there when you repeat the words of the prophets on the matter imo. I don't think you can be required to make him hear them either, right? :)

No, I can't make him hear, but I can't give up planting seeds that may someday bear fruit. He has a choice to no longer hear. Then its all on him (whoever "he" is).

Or you might outline your next steps to address this problem, since we're just spitballing now, and the point might become clearer. You can dissociate from their nation w/o parting as enemies or even "with a problem" iow, at least i think. It is bc they are associated as being in your nation that you have a problem so to speak, right? And of course you do in that sense have a problem, too, no denying it. A man's enemies will be those of his own house, a house divided cannot stand, and all that rot

The cure imo is leave that nation, not expect anyone in that nation to suddenly begin hearing the prophets, and maybe condemning them if they do not or whatever, even shunning them etc.

I'm not sure what "nation" you are referring to. The Christian nation? No need to leave it since I was kicked out of it for obeying the commandments.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm not sure what "nation" you are referring to. The Christian nation? No need to leave it since I was kicked out of it for obeying the commandments.

Baloney! You live in North Carolina.

 

[BobRyan]

You did not supply any verses stating Yeshua is YHWH except Hebrews 8 where you read him into the text.

Heb 8 - reads as it does -- the only response to it so far is to complain about the text and the fact that I keep noticing how it all fits with Christ as the primary focus all the way through it.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?? No one offers "details" to show that the Hebrews 8 text is wrong.

==== in any case since you want "more of that" -- fine.

Mark 1:2-3
2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“Behold, I send My messenger ahead of You,
Who will prepare Your way;
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness,
‘Make ready the way of the Lord,
Make His paths straight.’”

Which is quoting

Isiah 40:3
A voice is calling,
“Clear the way for the Lord (YHWH) in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

=====================================
And of course all Bible students know this one -

Jeremiah 23:6
“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
6 “In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The Lord (YHWH) our righteousness.’

----------------------------------------------------- so then
Not just Hebrews 8

Hebrews 8
just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He (Christ) says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He (Christ) is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He (Christ) says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord (YHWH),
When I (Christ) will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I (Christ) made with their fathers
For they did not continue in My (Christ's) covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord (Christ).
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Many texts in the NT where the OT YHWH is applied to Christ

And here is why

It was Christ at Sinai according to Hebrews 8.

It was Christ "every day" in the wilderness wanderings of Israel.

1 Cor 10
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the Rock was Christ

So that is "Christ" saying "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 according to Hebrews 8.

You did not supply any verses stating Yeshua is YHWH except Hebrews 8

That is not the most compelling argument on this point. You knew that right?

 

[gadar perets]

Baloney! You live in North Carolina.

?? Yes, I live in NC. What does that have to do with getting kicked out of Christianity? I didn't say I was kicked out of the USA. Oy vey!

 

[gadar perets]

Heb 8 - reads as it does -- the only response to it so far is to complain about the text and the fact that I keep noticing how it all fits with Christ as the primary focus all the way through it.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?? No one offers "details" to show that the Hebrews 8 text is wrong.

==== in any case since you want "more of that" -- fine.

Hebrews 8 is not wrong. It is your insertion of "Christ" in places it does not belong that is wrong.

Mark 1:2-3
2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“Behold, I send My messenger ahead of You,
Who will prepare Your way;
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness,
‘Make ready the way of the Lord,
Make His paths straight.’”

Which is quoting

Isiah 40:3
A voice is calling,
“Clear the way for the Lord (YHWH) in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

A clever word substitution ("for" instead of "of") in Isaiah 40:3.

Of all the N.T. verses that quote Isaiah, Luke 3:4-6 aids our understanding because it includes Isaiah 40:4 & 5. It says, "As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of YHWH." "Prepare ye the way of YHWH" does not mean, "Move out of the way because YHWH is coming." And so when Yeshua comes they believe he is YHWH.

How was "the way" to be prepared? By filling valleys, leveling mountains, straightening paths, etc. This work is not to be understood literally, but spiritually through the humbling of those in exalted positions and the restoration of truth. Who was to do that work? John 4:34 says, "Yeshua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish his work." Almighty YHWH appointed His Son Yeshua to finish His work. Yeshua was YHWH's instrument in the accomplishment of His great plan. Yeshua is the "Messenger of the Covenant," "the servant of YHWH," and "the salvation of YHWH." John 14:6 calls Yeshua "the way." He is "the way of YHWH;" the means through which YHWH will finish His work.

And of course all Bible students know this one -

Jeremiah 23:6
“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
6 “In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The Lord (YHWH) our righteousness.’

If this passage proves Yeshua is YHWH, then Jeremiah 33:16 teaches that Jerusalem is also YHWH. It reads;

"In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHWH our righteousness."
​

And of course, Jehu would also be YHWH since his name means "He is Yah".

You have erred greatly by believing the Son is YHWH.

 

[Stranger]

The context surrounding verse 10 is justification by faith vs. justification by law. If I was seeking to be justified by my Sabbath keeping, I would be cursed. However, I am justified by my faith in Messiah Yeshua. My works are simply a fruit of my faith and without works my faith would be dead.

Sounds good. You are justified by faith. Not by law.

(Gal. 3:2-3) "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Sounds good. You are justified by faith. Not by law.

(Gal. 3:2-3) "This only would I learn of you,Received ye the Spirit y the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

Stranger

You just jump from one false accusation to the other. Are you looking for something that sticks so you can justify your own lawlessness? You are still using Galatians 3 to attack me even though the context refers to the Galatians seeking to be justified by law. I'm already "perfect" through Yeshua (Hebrews 10:14).

You have built this little box you put all Sabbath keepers in. To you we are all justified by law, fallen from grace, frustrating grace, legalistic, without the Spirit, etc. Now you met a man who doesn't fit in the box and you don't know what to do with me. The same goes for anyone else on this forum who puts Sabbath keepers in their box. The fact is, there are many Sabbath keepers out there who truly love YHWH and who refuse to sin against Him by breaking His laws. We do not justify our sins by pretending the law no longer applies to believers. We use the law lawfully as the Holy Spirit taught us to through Paul and other NT writers.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Father's commands are the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20
Jesus' commands are to have faith in Himself, and to love. 1 John 3:23

Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

We are no longer under a tutor. You may have been taught that the only law this is talking about are sacrifices. No, the righteous requirements of the law have to do with the Ten Commandments. Romans 7 shows this to be true: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Hi,

Been busy, Can't remember if I answered this.
Can't do any better than @BobRyan on post no.666.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok so there are two forms of OSAS. Many times the free-will group that I identify with will reduce OSAS to one form - but there are two forms of it.

1. Affirms the Bible doctrine on the "perseverance of the saints" - and won't allow OSAS to be claimed unless the person really does persevere-firm-to-the end of their life. So while they "claim" they have OSAS - realistically they have no actual "assurance" until they see they persevered, because if they fail - they will "retro-delete" all past claims to OSAS for a given person prior to that fail.
2. Denies the Bible doctrine on "perseverance" and so embraces a "live-like-the-devil yet saved-anyway" form of gospel.

Your statement is specific to that second flavor of OSAS - which means you will sometimes get complaints from those in the first OSAS group where they say they don't believe in that sort of OSAS as you have identified.

Just FYI.

Yes, I'm speaking about the second type of eternal security.

The way Calvinists understand perseverance of the saints makes salvation impossible to know at any given point in time although most of them will refuse to understand this, or don't want to understand this. All because they refuse to believe in free will.

Since we DO believe in free will, we can know for sure that at this moment we accept salvation by our belief in our Lord....and we can even say, after having traversed some tribulation, that we will indeed hold fast until the end, as Paul stated.

Hebrews 3:14
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

 

[bbyrd009]

No, I can't make him hear, but I can't give up planting seeds that may someday bear fruit. He has a choice to no longer hear. Then its all on him (whoever "he" is).

i guess whoever might offend you by choosing to honor every day the same right, the one you say you would have a problem with?

 

[bbyrd009]

Baloney! You live in North Carolina.

doesn't really describe his nation though, his peer group, whatever. We are far and away the most divided country, with the most nations, so "NC" narrows it down to about 10 or so right. Prolly ten diff "Christian" nations in NC, come to think of it

 

[Stranger]

You just jump from one false accusation to the other. Are you looking for something that sticks so you can justify your own lawlessness? You are still using Galatians 3 to attack me even though the context refers to the Galatians seeking to be justified by law. I'm already "perfect" through Yeshua (Hebrews 10:14).

You have built this little box you put all Sabbath keepers in. To you we are all justified by law, fallen from grace, frustrating grace, legalistic, without the Spirit, etc. Now you met a man who is doesn't fit in the box and you don't know what to do with me. The same goes for anyone else on this forum who puts Sabbath keepers in their box. The fact is, there are many Sabbath keepers out there who truly love YHWH and who refuse to sin against Him by breaking His laws. We do not justify our sins by pretending the law no longer applies to believers. We use the law lawfully as the Holy Spirit taught us to through Paul and other NT writers.

I know exactly what to do with you. It has taken time to identify your weird beliefs, but it has come out. You say you are of the 'faith of Messiah' in (#305). But the messiah you follow is not the Messiah of the Bible. You deny the Deity of Jesus Christ. (#541) You deny the pre-existence of the Son. (#463)

So, you are not Christian. You are not a Jew, you are a Gentile, yet you want to be a Jew. You are not a Messianic Jew because Messianic Jews believe in the Jesus of the Bible. You believe in another jesus. You have created another jesus and place faith in him and now want to please him by keeping the Law. And you want to present him to Christians, declaring how they are wrong in believing in the Jesus Christ of Scripture and wrong in not keeping the Law.

You want what Christians have yet reject what Christians believe. And so have created your own belief. You are nothing but another false teacher.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus kept the Ten Commandments, but His new commandments go far deeper than the surface commandments of Exodus 20. That is how they are different.

Keeping just the Ten Commandments, one could break the commandments of Jesus.
Keeping the commandments of Jesus, one cannot break the Ten Commandments.

Do you see the difference?

Great way of explaining this!
Yes, of course I know the difference.

But the New Covenant goes even further than that...
The Mosaic Covenant did not give us the POWER to keep the commandments...
they must still be kept, but now we have the power to keep them.

I've often said that not only did Jesus not abolish the moral law, He increased it...brought it to the level of the heart...our heart has to change, not just the doing or not doing of something because of a law.

We don't lie because our heart tells us not to...
not because our mind tells us not to because it'll get us into trouble with God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Herein is your problem. It is not about obedience to the Law. It is about walking in the Spirit. For some reason you cannot distinguish the two.

Stranger

How do you know what I can distinguish?
We're just not speaking the same language.

Here:

We are to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
This means to walk with God and follow HIS ways instead of walking with the enemy who delights in our following him in the flesh.

When we DO listen to him (not follow him, that's loss of salvation) we confess our sin to God and are forgiven and continue in our walk.

But we ARE required to obey the law...
the law is, for instance, the 10 commandments, it's what Jesus said to do for the least of His brothers, it's what He said to do regarding the heart condition.

Now, @Nancy and @1stCenturyLady lady gave you a like,,,and yet I know for sure that they also believe in following the commandments of God.

So....

What do you think is the difference?
What do you think I don't understand?

Do you think you could break God's laws and live a life of sin and still be saved?
I know you don't...
So speak as if you don't!

 

[GodsGrace]

I argue with you because your motivation is keeping the Law. My motivation is walking in the Spirit. We are both after the same things. Your method, motivation, will not work. Because you will always be breaking the Law. My method, which isn't mine but the method laid out by God in the New Testament, will work. Because walking in the Spirit will accomplish those things written in the Law. But I don't do them to be obedient to the Law. For some reason you have a mental or spiritual block against that.

Stranger

Of course my motivation is keeping the law.
Do YOU want to break the laws of God?

But what IS the motivation to keep the law?
Is it fear?
Is it love?

If someone loves God and keeps the law he is heaven-bound.
If someone fears God and keeps the law he is heaven-bound.

Love is better,,,but either one will get the person to heaven.

Where is YOUR method laid out in scripture?
You posted some verses in your post before this and I showed you how it didn't even prove what you said by highlighting some verses.

John 3:17-21 Jesus said:
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

First of all, God DOES appreciate good deeds, just our "believing" is not enough.
Second of all, what does BELIEVE mean anyway?

Does is mean we ARE to be obedient, or does it mean we are NOT to be obedient?

 

[Stranger]

How do you know what I can distinguish?
We're just not speaking the same language.

Here:

We are to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
This means to walk with God and follow HIS ways instead of walking with the enemy who delights in our following him in the flesh.

When we DO listen to him (not follow him, that's loss of salvation) we confess our sin to God and are forgiven and continue in our walk.

But we ARE required to obey the law...
the law is, for instance, the 10 commandments, it's what Jesus said to do for the least of His brothers, it's what He said to do regarding the heart condition.

Now, @Nancy and @1stCenturyLady lady gave you a like,,,and yet I know for sure that they also believe in following the commandments of God.

So....

What do you think is the difference?
What do you think I don't understand?

Do you think you could break God's laws and live a life of sin and still be saved?
I know you don't...
So speak as if you don't!

I know by the words you speak, or write.

When you say 'we are required to obey the law' then you have moved from walking in the Spirit to being under the Law.

You break the Law every day. Don't you? Is there a day you completely obey the Law? What is your timeline of how long you go before you break the Law? So are you still saved? When you break the Law, what does God say? 'one out of 10 aint bad'.

Stranger