Eternal Security

[Stranger]

Adam was under the Edenic Covenant... which was conditional on him obeying God, which he did not do.

Then came the Adamic Covenant which was unconditional....Genesis 3:17, the foreshadowing of Jesus.

Yes, the only law Adam was under was in caring for the garden. Which law he broke, making him a transgressor. This awakened his conscience to know good and evil. (Gen. 3:22) Thus now man would walk according to his conscience. Not by any law.

(Gen. 3:14-19) is God passing judgement on Adam and Eve and the serpent and placing the earth under a curse. In other words the living conditions were now changed due to Adam's fall also.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

It appears as if you are trying to look at this from too close...you need to step back and see the continuity of God's ways. Salvation is conditional. God makes promises...but they are to the faithful....or the ...whomsoever wills. There is a part that God does and there is the right response that God is waiting for in us.

Well, maybe I HAD to look at it from VERY CLOSE?

 

[Episkopos]

Well, maybe I HAD to look at it from VERY CLOSE?

That's how you lose perspective though... One must remember what it is one is looking at before getting the microscope out and trying to determine what we are seeing by looking at the individual atoms...

The prophetic person steps back to understand....not forward. Real science is with the prophet...not the one with the microscope looking to take things apart to see how they work.

I like this saying along these lines..."you don't have to pull a plant out by the roots to see if it's growing"

 

[Enoch111]

It isn't imputed...that would mean that it was there already. The righteousness of God is a gift....not a human attribute.

Wrong on both counts.

GOD IMPUTES RIGHTEOUSNESS TO THE ONE WHO BELIEVES

ROMANS 4
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed* to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed* to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed*, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

*Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3049: λογίζομαι (logizomai)
a. to take into account, to make account of: τί τίνι, Romans 4:3,(4); metaphorically, to pass to one's account, to impute (A. V. reckon): τί,1 Corinthians 13:5; τίνι τί, 2 Timothy 4:16 (A. V. lay to one's charge); τίνιδιακιοσυνην, ἁμαρτίαν, Romans 4:6,...

Where did I suggest that righteousness was "a human attribute"? I said that we are deemed righteous "with the righteousness of God Himself".

You said "So when God imputed righteousness to Abraham...it is because He recognized Abraham's faithfulness in what he did." That is incorrect and misleading, since it goes against what is taught in Romans 4.

And yes, God righteousness is "there already" because it has always been there.

 

[Enoch111]

Adam was under the Edenic Covenant... which was conditional on him obeying God, which he did not do.

Then came the Adamic Covenant which was unconditional....Genesis 3:17, the foreshadowing of Jesus.

We should not be INVENTING covenants when they are not clearly identified as such . There are no Adamic and Edenic "covenants".

God gave Adam one COMMANDMENT (which Adam violated). Gen 2:16,17

After that God placed Adam under a CURSE. Gen 3:17-19.

 

[Episkopos]

Wrong on both counts.

GOD IMPUTES RIGHTEOUSNESS TO THE ONE WHO BELIEVES

ROMANS 4
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed* to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed* to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed*, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

*Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3049: λογίζομαι (logizomai)
a. to take into account, to make account of: τί τίνι, Romans 4:3,(4); metaphorically, to pass to one's account, to impute (A. V. reckon): τί,1 Corinthians 13:5; τίνι τί, 2 Timothy 4:16 (A. V. lay to one's charge); τίνιδιακιοσυνην, ἁμαρτίαν, Romans 4:6,...

Where did I suggest that righteousness was "a human attribute"? I said that we are deemed righteous "with the righteousness of God Himself".

You said "So when God imputed righteousness to Abraham...it is because He recognized Abraham's faithfulness in what he did." That is incorrect and misleading, since it goes against what is taught in Romans 4.

And yes, God righteousness is "there already" because it has always been there.

You don't impute a gift. The righteousness of God is a gift of grace from God. It is HIS righteousness....not ours. If you build a house....it can be attributed (imputed) to you. But if God does something and gives it to you...it is imputed to Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Concerning the issue of free will and eternal security:

The person who is born again had been transformed into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

He is no longer a dog or a pig (see 2 Peter 2:22). Therefore it is no longer his inclination, nor is it in his nature, to return to his vomit or go wallowing in the mud.

He is a sheep; and therefore he detests vomit and mud.

Because our nature has been changed, so that we no longer love what we used to love (sin) but now hate it; and we no longer hate what we used to hate (righteousness) but now love it; what we choose to do with our wills is going to be in alignment with our new inclinations, desires, and our disposition against sin and towards righteousness.
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Also, I want to say something about the choice that we have as believers to walk away, out of the Father's hand (see John 10:27-30); while it is impossible that anyone could snatch us out of His hand.

God promises in Jeremiah 32:38-40 that He will create in us a for ever fear that within us will be a motivation so that we shall not depart from Him.

I have read as far to post #240 so far in this thread, so if this has already been addressed I apologize. We need to go and do our laundry today; and I did not want to lose my thoughts on the matter, that I have thought from reading what I have read so far.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's how you lose perspective though... One must remember what it is one is looking at before getting the microscope out and trying to determine what we are seeing by looking at the individual atoms...

The prophetic person steps back to understand....not forward. Real science is with the prophet...not the one with the microscope looking to take things apart to see how they work.

I like this saying along these lines..."you don't have to pull a plant out by the roots to see if it's growing"

Episkopos,
Maybe it's time you studied them there covenants.
It would do ya good.
Step up close and take a look at 'em.
You is standin' too far away there fella.

Sometimes microscopes are good.

 

[GodsGrace]

We should not be INVENTING covenants when they are not clearly identified as such . There are no Adamic and Edenic "covenants".

God gave Adam one COMMANDMENT (which Adam violated). Gen 2:16,17

After that God placed Adam under a CURSE. Gen 3:17-19.

The Edenic Covenant was not INVENTED by me.
Although some bible scholars do not list it as a covenant, it DOES contain covenant language.

The Adamic Covenant was the first covenant that they all agree to.

Why do you persist in telling me I make up stuff??
I DON'T make up stuff.
Look up the Edenic covenant.
I'm not listing any links.
And then believe what you wish to believe...it seems to me we all seem to do this.

 

[justbyfaith]

BUT we do still have to obey the 10 commandments...so it's a continuation of the Mosaic Covenant.

No; in the New Testament, obeying the commandments is not a requirement but a privilege.

We obey the Lord because we love Him; not in order to obtain, maintain, or earn our salvation.

The law is written on our hearts and minds (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16) in the sense that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4) which is the fulfilling of the law's righteousness within us; because it is a love that is not impractical (1 John 3:17-18)..

 

[GodsGrace]

No; in the New Testament, obeying the commandments is not a requirement but a privilege.

We obey the Lord because we love Him; not in order to obtain, maintain, or earn our salvation.

The law is written on our hearts and minds (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16) in the sense that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4) which is the fulfilling of the law's righteousness within us; because it is a love that is not impractical (1 John 3:17-18)..

So we do NOT have to obey God?

 

[gadar perets]

Yes.
What we need here is the definition of:
sin
transgression
iniquity

I'm going to start a thread on this later when I'm home...
(unless you care to).

If you haven't started this thread yet, please put it in this same Apologetics forum.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

At the end of our lives we will be in one of two groups. We will either be a sinner, or saint.

Revelation 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos,
Maybe it's time you studied them there covenants.
It would do ya good.
Step up close and take a look at 'em.
You is standin' too far away there fella.

Sometimes microscopes are good.

The eternal perspective is seen from a distance. From up close all is bafflement and confusion...

 

[justbyfaith]

There is no such thing as a Hebrew any more. Any more than there are Vikings.

If that were true, then the 144,000 Jews from every tribe of Israel except Dan will never exist, and the scripture (Revelation 7:1-8) has been broken.

Your profile says "other faith." Why not just choose Messianic?

I was not given that choice. These are the only choices I have;

• Christian
• Muslim
• Agnostic
• Atheist
• Other Faith

Messianic isn't Christian, in your opinion? Why is "Other Faith" more accurate to what you believe in than "Christian"?

 

[justbyfaith]

Christian teachings do NOT "establish the law". They teach people to break the laws by falsely proclaiming they are abolished.

You are denying what the scripture says (in Romans 3:31).

Commandments 1-4 have nothing to do with believing on the name of Yeshua. They concern loving Yeshua's Father, Almighty YHWH, the ONLY true God.

Jesus, also, is the only true God. For He is the Father incarnate (Isaiah 9:6).

The deception that the law has been abolished and we need not obey the commandments anymore.

Because we are forgiven through the blood of Christ, there is now no condemnation for the believer in Christ, coming from the law. The law is therefore no longer a requirement for the believer, but a privilege (and we see it as a privilege because we desire to obey for that the Spirit dwells within us); and our motivation for obeying is not because we will be punished over disobedience (for that penalty was taken by Jesus when He died on the Cross) but because we are thankful to Him and love Him, for that He has perpetually forgiven us of all sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

Christianity is NOT the door to the Kingdom of Heaven, Yeshua is.

Just be sure that the Yeshua that you have come to the Father through (John 14:6) is the real deal (the true Jesus...2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

Grace is frustrated when we seek to be justified by the law. Grace is complemented when we obey the law out of love for YHWH and our neighbors.

Excellent point!

 

[justbyfaith]

The Law, period, no longer applies to the Christian. Whether it is 'reiterated' or not. The Christian does not walk with God in accordance with the Law.

It no longer applies to the Christian in that it no longer condemns him from the outside, as it is written on stone tablets. It does apply in that it governs us from the inside, as being written on the heart (Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4-7)

Not being "under the law" does NOT mean we no longer have to obey the law. That is a lie from Satan.

Slightly incorrect. It is not that we have to obey the law as Christians; but that if we are truly born again, we desire to obey the law. therefore if we don't desire to obey, it is because we are not born again. Nevertheless the believer is not under the law as a requirement; but because we are born again it becomes a privilege to obey.

but we CANNOT OBEY when we are taught we no longer need to obey.

This is not completely true. I do not believe that I need to obey the law for my salvation, yet I obey. Why? Because I love the Lord for that I am saved.

No. To reject the Deity of Jesus Christ is to deny who Christians say Christ is. Yeshua said there is "only one true God/Deity" (John 17:3). He identified that Deity as his Father, Almighty YHWH). Christians disregard Yeshua's words and make him into part of that Deity.

Have you never read John 1:1,14? In that scenario, Jesus is the Word (who was God or a god, become flesh). If you believe the latter, I ask you whether you believe Jesus is a true god or a false god? If He is false, then it is not wise to continue on with Him, is it? But if He is a true god, then in all reality He would be the only true God.

As I said, I was forced out of the modern Christian "church". If I came to your church as a non-trinitarian Sabbath keeper who only eats clean foods and keeps all the Feast Days, would I be welcome as a member?

The church I go to doesn't place very much emphasis on membership; all are basically welcome whether they define themselves as Christians or not, so that they can hear the gospel. But I know that if you believe in any false doctrines (such as denial of Christ's Deity), you would never be accepted into a leadership position; and speaking what you believe in (if it be false) would be greatly discouraged.

Because you mind is bent toward following the Law, you cannot please God. As I said, even if you obeyed the Law completely, you are not pleasing to God.

Hi Stranger; I believe you are wrong on the other end of the spectrum. A person who desires to obey the law out of love for Jesus is indeed pleasing to God (see Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6). It would be in attempting to be justified by the law that might get someone into trouble (see Galatians 5:4).

But you do not obey the Law. It always says to you...guilty.

This is true of the law: it is a schoolmaster to lead unbelieving sinners to Christ; and that is to the unbeliever. For the believer, we do indeed keep the law out of love for the Lord (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, 1 Corinthians 15:34 w/ 1 John 3:4). Because the law defines sin; and as believers in the Lord we hate sin and love righteousness. Therefore when faced with the law, we desire to obey its moral tenets (Romans 8:7).

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually, I have tasted it as well as pig meat in my unbelieving days. I gave them up when I found out my Heavenly Father considers eating such unclean flesh as abominable. He is absolutely disgusted by it.

According to 1 Timothy 4:1-6, I would be a good minister of Jesus Christ to point out that it is a doctrine of demons that we ought to abstain from meats, which God has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Jesus declared all foods clean in Mark 7:15-19, Luke 11:41, and Romans 14:14.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It is interesting that there are some who are giving themselves full credit for obeying the law, just because they love Christ. The Jews loved the Father God and obeyed the law, but it wasn't enough because of the presence of the sinful nature, which those same people have said we will always have, no matter what the gospel says of being born again as new creatures. There is no difference between themselves and the lawful Jews. And both give themselves all the credit. Such arrogance.

What they fail to understand, no matter how many times it is pointed out, is that we cannot fulfill the righteous requirements of the law in ourselves, no matter if we love the Father, or the Son. It is only through being born again of the SPIRIT, which is becoming dead to SIN - the real culprit. This is why Peter who loved Jesus denied Him three times! He didn't have the Spirit yet, though he loved Jesus with all his heart. The sin nature must die, and that is only done through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Then we are no longer in the sinful flesh, but in the Spirit. We cannot give ourselves any credit at all, because righteousness is all done then through and by the Spirit, we have nothing to boast about. That is what is meant in Scripture about "not by (my) works," because it is all dependent on the Spirit working through us. "I can do all things through Christ, WHO STRENGTHENS ME." Without the Spirit, we have no strength, just ourselves.

But we first must have Him, the Spirit of Christ. If not, we don't belong to Christ no matter how much we love Him. 90% of the church is in this condition and going straight to hell. And how do we receive the Spirit of Christ? Through complete one-time repentance of the whole sin nature inherited from Adam's sin. We will know if our repentance is complete or only for today's sin, knowing full well we will sin again, and again tomorrow because we know we'll want to, and plan on repenting again - a vicious cycle. That is a person with no power of God in them. They are still full of darkness, but think they have a relationship with God, 1 John 1:6. As far as eternal assurance, they are lying to themselves, as there is no eternal assurance for them. But once the Spirit of God is in us, all desires take 180 degree about face immediately. With the new nature, we naturally do righteousness, for the sin nature is dead, where when under the law with the sin nature still in place, it was a tug of war, and the vicious cycle repeats itself. With the new nature that doesn't willfully sin, there is no need for the law showing us sin that isn't there, thus they are "not under the law."