@gadar perets
I have only recently been reading many of his posts, and often I find myself in agreement. Of course, I have not been a trinitarian for many years. I am against OSAS which is at least two points where we are may agree.
On who Jesus is, I also believe Jesus is the Son of God. Is he God? If he is then I would see him as lessor god established in that capacity by the One and Only God who we call the Father.
I cannot pursue this question in the original Greek, but with the English, German and Spanish I already have serious questions myself. I read in particular these verses:
"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:5-10
What is the difference between knowledge and belief and faith? Would we condemn someone without definite knowledge that that person is wrong in the eyes of God? It seems that some people would.
I don't say that Jesus is not God, but there is group of believers who would exclude me and others because we disagree and/or express doubt. Fortunately, that designation [Christian] is not, I believe, important to God. He is certainly more concerned about what is in the heart of a man than under what banner, if any, the man assembles.
Many people, I believe, love God without really understanding all of the arguments or knowing all of the detailed answers. They simply, as our friend Twinc would say, believe. Believe what? Who is able to say absolutely that another person of faith is wrong simply because his beliefs do not match mine or yours?
God is not looking for or at the final set of doctrines held as much as he looking is at the hearts which are like Jesus. How is it that we get to be like Jesus? By studying continuously? I believe not. I believe that the best way and only way to get there is by being able to surrender continuous to God so that He can elevate us Who can surrender like that? Who is willing to ask Him for help in surrendering?
If he's right, we're all in trouble because we're worshipping a man.[/quote]@gadar perets whom I've known a long time and have much respect for, does not believe Jesus is God but the Son of God. He respects Jesus as the Messiah and Annointed one sent by God Father, but believe only God Father is to be worshipped.
I have only recently been reading many of his posts, and often I find myself in agreement. Of course, I have not been a trinitarian for many years. I am against OSAS which is at least two points where we are may agree.
On who Jesus is, I also believe Jesus is the Son of God. Is he God? If he is then I would see him as lessor god established in that capacity by the One and Only God who we call the Father.
I have nothing against the early Christian theologians, but I cannot base my beliefs on theirs any more than I can base them on the beliefs of others in denominations today or on Internet forums. I may listen to or read their arguments but how can I know the truth unless God reveals it to me?However, Christian theologians from the beginning have declared Jesus to be God, but he disputes this too and I don't have the tools to check this out since I'd need the writings of the ECF in the original Greek.
I cannot pursue this question in the original Greek, but with the English, German and Spanish I already have serious questions myself. I read in particular these verses:
"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:5-10
I guess there is some honor among men found in being called by that name: Christian. I don't mind being called a Christian because I am a follower of Christ, but if a person must definitely believe that Jesus is God equivalent to the Father God to properly bear the designation, then I would come up short on that point.The only thing I do want to say, and which he knows I believe, is that to be called a Christian means that we believe Jesus is God."
He does not call himself a Christian so there is no conflict there.
What is the difference between knowledge and belief and faith? Would we condemn someone without definite knowledge that that person is wrong in the eyes of God? It seems that some people would.
I don't say that Jesus is not God, but there is group of believers who would exclude me and others because we disagree and/or express doubt. Fortunately, that designation [Christian] is not, I believe, important to God. He is certainly more concerned about what is in the heart of a man than under what banner, if any, the man assembles.
But why do WE have to keep proving to him that Jesus is God? I take it for granted after much reading and thinking about this...it seems to me it has to be this way.
Why does anyone have to keep proving anything to anyone? Do the apparently best debaters always win? Does the majority rule? Does the leadership of any given church or group of churches have the final say for God? Are the best answers to found in the views of the best biblical scholars?Seems like the pharisees and saducees believed Him to be God too...
Many people, I believe, love God without really understanding all of the arguments or knowing all of the detailed answers. They simply, as our friend Twinc would say, believe. Believe what? Who is able to say absolutely that another person of faith is wrong simply because his beliefs do not match mine or yours?
God is not looking for or at the final set of doctrines held as much as he looking is at the hearts which are like Jesus. How is it that we get to be like Jesus? By studying continuously? I believe not. I believe that the best way and only way to get there is by being able to surrender continuous to God so that He can elevate us Who can surrender like that? Who is willing to ask Him for help in surrendering?
A sincere discussion can be very good, but who is helped when angry responses are given or demeaning names are applied because someone will not change to what we believe that he should change?Maybe the debate is good.
Steel sharpens steels, or whatever they say.
As to No Other Man Born Of Woman...maybe Jesus just meant no other human being ever born....men have been born of woman from the beginning..so it includes all men.
Just my opinion.
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