Eternal Security

[amadeus]

@gadar perets

@gadar perets whom I've known a long time and have much respect for, does not believe Jesus is God but the Son of God. He respects Jesus as the Messiah and Annointed one sent by God Father, but believe only God Father is to be worshipped.

If he's right, we're all in trouble because we're worshipping a man.[/quote]
I have only recently been reading many of his posts, and often I find myself in agreement. Of course, I have not been a trinitarian for many years. I am against OSAS which is at least two points where we are may agree.

On who Jesus is, I also believe Jesus is the Son of God. Is he God? If he is then I would see him as lessor god established in that capacity by the One and Only God who we call the Father.

However, Christian theologians from the beginning have declared Jesus to be God, but he disputes this too and I don't have the tools to check this out since I'd need the writings of the ECF in the original Greek.

I have nothing against the early Christian theologians, but I cannot base my beliefs on theirs any more than I can base them on the beliefs of others in denominations today or on Internet forums. I may listen to or read their arguments but how can I know the truth unless God reveals it to me?

I cannot pursue this question in the original Greek, but with the English, German and Spanish I already have serious questions myself. I read in particular these verses:

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:5-10

The only thing I do want to say, and which he knows I believe, is that to be called a Christian means that we believe Jesus is God."

He does not call himself a Christian so there is no conflict there.

I guess there is some honor among men found in being called by that name: Christian. I don't mind being called a Christian because I am a follower of Christ, but if a person must definitely believe that Jesus is God equivalent to the Father God to properly bear the designation, then I would come up short on that point.

What is the difference between knowledge and belief and faith? Would we condemn someone without definite knowledge that that person is wrong in the eyes of God? It seems that some people would.

I don't say that Jesus is not God, but there is group of believers who would exclude me and others because we disagree and/or express doubt. Fortunately, that designation [Christian] is not, I believe, important to God. He is certainly more concerned about what is in the heart of a man than under what banner, if any, the man assembles.

But why do WE have to keep proving to him that Jesus is God? I take it for granted after much reading and thinking about this...it seems to me it has to be this way.

Seems like the pharisees and saducees believed Him to be God too...

Why does anyone have to keep proving anything to anyone? Do the apparently best debaters always win? Does the majority rule? Does the leadership of any given church or group of churches have the final say for God? Are the best answers to found in the views of the best biblical scholars?

Many people, I believe, love God without really understanding all of the arguments or knowing all of the detailed answers. They simply, as our friend Twinc would say, believe. Believe what? Who is able to say absolutely that another person of faith is wrong simply because his beliefs do not match mine or yours?

God is not looking for or at the final set of doctrines held as much as he looking is at the hearts which are like Jesus. How is it that we get to be like Jesus? By studying continuously? I believe not. I believe that the best way and only way to get there is by being able to surrender continuous to God so that He can elevate us Who can surrender like that? Who is willing to ask Him for help in surrendering?

Maybe the debate is good.
Steel sharpens steels, or whatever they say.

As to No Other Man Born Of Woman...maybe Jesus just meant no other human being ever born....men have been born of woman from the beginning..so it includes all men.

Just my opinion.

A sincere discussion can be very good, but who is helped when angry responses are given or demeaning names are applied because someone will not change to what we believe that he should change?

 

[bbyrd009]

If he's right, we're all in trouble because we're worshipping a man.

the lesson of Nehushtan is crystal clear imo

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Did God conduct that research and provide you with the results to use to condemn someone?

Who am I condemning?
Perets?
He's done that to himself.
If you have no conviction in your Christianity and you treat him as a brother, then that's your problem.
I hope you over come it.

 

[amadeus]

Who am I condemning?
Perets?
He's done that to himself.
If you have no conviction in your Christianity and you treat him as a brother, then that's your problem.
I hope you over come it.

I guess I must have done something to deserve such a judgment against me. If I was needless offensive, I apologize.

"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content." Phil 4:11

Give God the glory!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You're such a nice guy.
And I'm so bad all the time.
Sorry!!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I guess I must have done something to deserve such a judgment against me. If I was needless offensive, I apologize.

"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content." Phil 4:11

Give God the glory!

 

[APAK]

Not to protect or support @gadar perets as if he needs it, I will say though that he is the ‘closest’ person on this Forum that speaks to what I believe in, in terms of who is Jeshua, who is YHWH and how they relate to each other, and them to me, for salvation and other repercussions and effect on my life. IMO, GP has it right and of course I say I do as well as I agree with him on many crucial points.

Now those that believe the Jesus is God ALWAYS fumble over scripture to prove their case, IMO. I wonder if it has to do with what they are trying to support? Many scriptures they cite are usually initiated by a need-jerk or an emotional reaction that seems to say that Jesus is God, without no preparation or no deep thought involved. They cannot provide clear and true context when they push out their single verses as their support. I have no trouble bringing in context and scripture together, as I see GP doing the same as well. There has to be something to say about why that is occurring. And I don’t even know who GP belongs to as in an organized group. And I don’t care. I don’t have one myself and I still believe in many ways as he does. I do believe in OSAS and maybe he does not and that’s cool with me.

I have learned some finer points of some areas that I already thought I knew well from him. It shows me I was still fuzzy in that area of understanding. I learn or reinforce some of my beliefs from GP and those like him on this Forum.

There are at least 6 persons that I know at this point, and I will leave them nameless, that also believe in many ways as I. They are usually not the ‘loudest’ on this Forum.

I’ve been debating Jesus = Christ folks for over 25 years now, in some way or form and frequency.

One time I was bombarded by four people with about 68 verses thrown at me at once, where I had to explain why their verses did not say that Jesus was God. They wanted to show me that they could overwhelm me with volumes of scripture to beat their breast afterwards as conquerors. They ‘left’ in a whimper. It’s is unfair they got to ‘watch’ me explain away every verse without any burden of proof or substantiation from themselves. This exhausting exercise and experience grew my faith in my beliefs, tremendously.

If one is in truth, he or she should be eager to elaborate on why they belief Jesus is God, and not just take it for granted that just because the Catholics believe it, most Protestants believe it, so those in the minority opposing this view only deserve ‘one liner’ explanations at best, to be look down upon as heretics or fake believers. It does sound too much like sheer hypocrisy.

Blessings to all,

APAK

 

[amadeus]

You're such a nice guy.
And I'm so bad all the time.
Sorry!!

Bad you are not, but sometimes you speak without thinking. All of us do that times. May God richly bless you as you walk with Him.

 

[amadeus]

the lesson of Nehushtan is crystal clear imo

Yes, but not everyone who makes a mistake in identification with their mind and mouth is necessarily wrong in their heart. I think you understand me on this point. Too many people perhaps do not really care about the difference between Jesus the reality and the Nehushtan of which you speak and as a result are for Nehushtan no matter what they are saying.

 

[justbyfaith]

But Job was certainly described in that first verse as "perfect". I would say he was perfect with what he had at the moment in the eyes of God. If any of us are similarly perfect, then then hopefully we will do a well as Job when we go through similar [in the eyes of God] trials as we walk our walks.

Who is a perfect man?

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." James 3:2

On this forum of endless accusations and name calling who is unnecessarily offending in word? When we disagree why do we lose control of our tongue? Does it edify God?

For in many things we offend all. James 3:2a

I’ve been debating Jesus = Christ folks for over 25 years now, in some way or form and frequency.

1 John 5:1,

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

This ought to settle the debate for you in light of John 3:1-8.

It’s is unfair they got to ‘watch’ me explain away every verse

I was going to mention the following concepts even before I saw the above in your post: Since God does not want people to believe for that they have no other option than to believe in light of the evidence; He has allowed evidence to exist that shows the opposite of what He has established as sound doctrine; and He has also allowed it to be in His word that it is written in such a way that if someone wishes to reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit by "explaining away" what He has clearly taught, they have the option of doing so; and He has set it up in such a way that believing the truth must be a matter of faith and not sight. Because the Lord values faith as being a virtue of the heart that is salvational; and therefore if the truth were absolutely proven concerning essential doctrines (such as Christ's Deity...while they are proven in the eyes of those who believe, those who do not believe are given the option of "explaining away" the evidence), it would not be a matter of faith but a matter of God forcing that person to believe what He says because it is absolutely proven before them and therefore they have no option except to believe.

If one is in truth, he or she should be eager to elaborate on why they belief Jesus is God,

At least you admit that it is those who believe that Jesus is God who are in the truth!

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, I do know better than you in this regard.

I will readily admit that...because I read through my Old Testament very slowly compared to my reading in the New Testament...reading the former at the rate of seven chapters a day.

I prefer to master New Testament doctrine while having a light knowledge of the Old...after all, if you read 2 Corinthians 3:6-16 (esp. 2 Corinthians 3:11-16) and Hebrews 8:13, I think you will see what I see as regards the diminished importance of the Old Testament as opposed to the New.

 

[justbyfaith]

Still Helen, no one has explained why @gadar perets is in error in light of the verse I cited above.

No one really even needs to do that...because his idea is completely bogus...no explanation needed! John the Baptist was and is in the Kingdom, period...not that it matters in the slightest concerning our discussion.

 

[gadar perets]

Can't agree. Yes John was...he saw the kingdom and lived it...not of this world...all who are not of this world are in the Kingdom Realm...
Noah, Abraham, Joseph, David...right through the NT to the end.

ALL believers are part of The Kingdom.
The kingdom is where the King reigns...and they were members of God's Kingdom...where Faith rules the day...faith in the King who is being followed.

When did the first person enter the Kingdom? Could anyone enter the Kingdom before Yeshua or does he have the preeminence in that? Could anyone enter the Kingdom before Yeshua resurrected? I think not.

 

[justbyfaith]

No one can enter in except through Jesus...however people who lived before Jesus finished His work, entered in through Him, in that they looked forward to what He would do for them; as this was testified to in scripture (such as Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53).

 

[Helen]

I guess I must have done something to deserve such a judgment against me. If I was needless offensive, I apologize.

"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content." Phil 4:11

Give God the glory!

As you know I don't change where I stand.
In most things we agree...in a few things likes OSAS and the restoration of all things...we differ...and on this issue too.

But what I can never understand ...why do the legalists ( that are so sure that they understand and interpret scripture perfectly)
...get so up-in-the-air and angry about the disagreements??

I find the anger and name calling perplexing.
Why do they feel that it is " life or death" and why do they so often say that those who don't believe just like they believe are "not real christians"...or wont be saved.
Heretic is a word which get thrown around far too easily.

I personally believe that the vicious legalists are far more in jeopardy than the lovers are...

I find it all a mystery.

 

[APAK]

@"ByGrace" @amadeus Triumph's wife passed....on Photo thread

 

[Helen]

@"ByGrace" @amadeus Triumph's wife passed....on Photo thread

Yes ...thank you...
It is a good idea to share this to gather prayer for him...
Not many people post on The PHOTO THREAD...

I will link it into the Prayer section...for those who are the prayers.
Bless you...Helen

 

[justbyfaith]

As you know I don't change where I stand.
In most things we agree...in a few things likes OSAS and the restoration of all things...we differ...and on this issue too.

But what I can never understand ...why do the legalists ( that are so sure that they understand and interpret scripture perfectly)
...get so up-in-the-air and angry about the disagreements??

I find the anger and name calling perplexing.
Why do they feel that it is " life or death" and why do they so often say that those who don't believe just like they believe are "not real christians"...or wont be saved.
Heretic is a word which get thrown around far too easily.

I personally believe that the vicious legalists are far more in jeopardy than the lovers are...

I find it all a mystery.

Those who believe that certain doctrines are essential to salvation believe that loving other people means to try to convince them of the truths that they need in order to have salvation...I do not deem them legalists...as a legalist is someone who believes that we must be saved through law-keeping...now I have never called anyone a name in any of my posts to those who I believe are mistaken to the point of not being redeemed because of the view that they hold...I do believe that certain things are a matter of life and death; as Matthew 7:13-14 and John 8:24 might say to you if you would behold these scriptures...and I have never really been angry at those who do not believe as I do either. I believe that my attitude has been to reach out to them in love.

Therefore I count myself as being one of the "lovers" although I hold that certain truths are essential for salvation and therefore might be considered by some others as not being the "loving" kind...because their idea of love is what feels good to them, and rebuke is not identified as love by that club of people.

Nevertheless Jesus said that rebuke is something that you will do if you really love the person...see Revelation 3:19 for example.

And therefore the ones who refrain from rebuking are, impaho, the very ones who are unloving...because they would rather have a smooth ride with people (telling them what they want to hear so that everything is peaceful between them and everyone else) than tell them what they need to hear. But it is more loving to tell the truth than to tell lies in the name of keeping the peace.

I would rather have a rift in my relationship with someone now but have all of eternity to get to know them, than to have a good relationship with someone else only to see one or both of us end up in hell.

 

[gadar perets]

As you know I don't change where I stand.

That is so sad. I feel sorry for you. You have come so far in your walk as the Spirit led you, but now you won't walk any further? You believe you have all the truth now and cannot receive anything further from the Holy Spirit?

 

[amadeus]

No one really even needs to do that...because his idea is completely bogus...no explanation needed! John the Baptist was and is in the Kingdom, period...not that it matters in the slightest concerning our discussion.

Are we to forget scriptures that don't seem to fit our present beliefs? Putting something on the shelf for a while because we do not understand it at the moment is one thing, but to throw it out completely is hardly a good solution. If your conclusion is correct that the Baptist was and is in the kingdom why not explain it with scriptures? I would not mind hearing such an explanation.