propitiation by His blood, through faith

[Dave L]

To @Dave L:

Romans 5:1-2,

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

I believe it is your position, contrary to this scripture, that grace and salvation come first, and then faith.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You cannot have it apart from first having the Holy Spirit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

 

[Dave L]

Oh my gosh! If we are saved by the kindness of God THROUGH FAITH, how is faith not a condition of saving?? Yes, it is a gift, but there is no saving without it!

And how does it make sense to say you will trust in your faith rather than in chris t when faith IS trust in Christ??

If your choosing to believe meant the difference between being saved or remaining lost, you are the savior. True faith trusts in Christ apart from human choice or endeavors.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The problem with your understanding is; one needs the Holy Spirit before they can do "Christian" things. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, any attempts at obedience are simply acting like a Christian = hypocrisy.

Grace = unmerited favor. If it depends on your choosing to have faith, it is not grace.

Faith is not a choosing, but a gift. The verse says and that faith is not of ourselves, presumably to keep the pride of man out of it. We also know we didn't choose Him but rather he chose us.

You have altered by Grace ( kindness) through faith, if you say if faith is involved it isn't by grace. God saves us by Grace , through faith.

After that, there are many times that this faith is a choice. You either trust God or the world many times in a day.

 

[Dave L]

Faith is not a choosing, but a gift. The verse says and that faith is not of ourselves, presumably to keep the pride of man out of it.

You have altered by Grace ( kindness) through faith, if you say if faith is involved it isn't by grace. God saves us by Grace , through faith.

After that, there are many times that this faith is a choice. You either trust God or the world many times in a day.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot be a condition for salvation. It is proof God saved a person or they could not have true and lasting faith.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This goes to the parable of the talents. I believe the talent is a small mustard seed of faith.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is that religious cynicism again. If someone smiles at me...should I assume he has evil intent...as you do?

A person with a dark eye sees everything as dark. So then you are moving into the wrong kingdom.

See John 2:24-25. Jesus set the example for us. He knew what was in man (as it is written in Jeremiah 17:9).

Are you so naive that you think the Christian music industry is not as corrupt as it's worldly counterpart?

You have assumed the worst about the Christian music industry.

But you assume the worst. That is your undoing. You show that you are not walking in the love of Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

This goes to the parable of the talents. I believe the talent is a small mustard seed of faith.

well, it was money when the parable was written i guess; the RCC changed the def on us apparently

 

[LC627]

The way I understand is that the whole world = gentiles and Jews according to Abraham's promise. Where before salvation was just for the Jews. But not every single person per se. All in the flood perished. All beyond Israel perished, etc.

Was Noah a Jew?
Or Enoch?

 

[justbyfaith]

If we had no potential then we would be nonredeemable.

Precisely the point. We are unredeemable unless Christ saves us by giving us a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27, 2 Corinthians 5:17, John 3:3).

Paul spoke of "CHRIST in you...he didn't say " Jesus in you".

Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 5:1.

 

[Dave L]

Was Noah a Jew?
Or Enoch?

Abel, Job and all believers in Hebrews 11 were born again in Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

Grace = unmerited favor. If it depends on your choosing to have faith, it is not grace.

Well why don't you explain the meaning of Ephesians 2:8,9?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

well, it was money when the parable was written i guess; the RCC changed the def on us apparently

So...you think Jesus was saying that He gives each man some money and then how much money he makes off of that money is what He looks for in order to reward them...?

In that case, why would He have always couched His parables with the words: the kingdom of heaven is like...? He could have just said: This is the kingdom of heaven - I give each of you a certain amount of money and I expect you to grow that money into more money. Then I will reward you and say to you that you have been faithful with a little money and grown it for Me so you will be put in charge of a lot, but if you don't make any money off of the money I give you, you will be thrown into the outer darkness? Does that seem like what the kingdom of heaven is to you byrd? That it's based on growing wealth on earth?

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You cannot have it apart from first having the Holy Spirit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

Galatians 5:22-23 may be talking about a supernatural faith that comes subsequent to the initial faith that grants us access into the grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2). It is not saying that one cannot have faith apart from salvation. According the verses I quoted to you, faith comes first and is the doorway to grace.

Now there is an initial drawing to Jesus by the Holy Ghost that takes place that a person cannot come to Christ apart from. But this drawing effect is not the same thing as salvation.

 

[LC627]

If your choosing to believe meant the difference between being saved or remaining lost, you are the savior. True faith trusts in Christ apart from human choice or endeavors.

Amen, not a truth many like to admit. It really rocks a person to their core to even think about it. We as humans love to be in control.

Eph. 1:5 - He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.

 

[Dave L]

Well why don't you explain the meaning of Ephesians 2:8,9?

“For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8–9)
"The process of being saved by grace through faith is ALL a gift from God. THIS whole package deal is not our own doing so as to eliminate human pride and boasting. Therefore grace is a gift from God, being saved is a gift from God, and faith is a gift from God. All of these parts fall under the neuter pronoun "this". By SlaveofChrist; Puritan Board Freshman

 

[justbyfaith]

If your choosing to believe meant the difference between being saved or remaining lost, you are the savior. True faith trusts in Christ apart from human choice or endeavors.

The same heat that melts the wax hardens the clay. We don't know if clay chooses to harden because it is clay, and wax chooses to melt because it is wax. But the offer of salvation is what brings forth the response. Personally, I believe there is a predetermined choice involved that is based on whether the person is clay or wax (parabolically speaking).

 

[Dave L]

The same heat that melts the wax hardens the clay. We don't know if clay chooses to harden because it is clay, and wax chooses to melt because it is wax. But the offer of salvation is what brings forth the response. Personally, I believe there is a choice involved that is based on whether the person is clay or wax (parabolically speaking).

In the gospels there is no offer for salvation. Only an announcement. If we offer the gospel, it becomes law for the self righteous to manipulate to their saving. But preaching the gospel merely tells "whosoever believes has eternal life". This does not invite human response.

 

[justbyfaith]

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.

 

[Enoch111]

...and faith is a gift from God

If faith (saving faith) is a gift from God, and God desires that all men should be saved, that would mean that everyone would have saving faith, and all would be saved, especially all of Israel (the chosen nation of God).

But since that is not the case, faith is generated by the preaching of the Gospel. Which leads to obedience to the Gospel. But all have NOT obeyed the Gospel.

ROMANS 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Looks like you have fallen into the snare of Five Point Calvinism.

 

[Dave L]

If faith (saving faith) is a gift from God, and God desires that all men should be saved, that would mean that everyone would have saving faith, and all would be saved, especially all of Israel (the chosen nation of God).

But since that is not the case, faith is generated by the preaching of the Gospel. Which leads to obedience to the Gospel. But all have NOT obeyed the Gospel.

ROMANS 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Looks like you have fallen into the snare of Five Point Calvinism.

Jesus said: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” (John 6:37)