Calvinism?

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos If you are a Believer there is no question about it. You don't have to wonder or speculate - you have eternal life.

...will have eternal life?

A person who lives in his own strength lives with the POTENTIAL of eternal life....but unless a person walks in the power of Jesus he may later on inherit life....but is still presently walking as any man...as a weak human being.....not according to life.

 

[Episkopos]

People will be saved by mercy without knowing it? How do you not know you're a believer?

You sound like you don't understand grace. Grace is the POWER to walk as Jesus walked apart from sin.

BUT God will have mercy on whom He wills.

Look at the sheep goats judgment (GWT)...those people don't know Jesus at all. Yet God will have mercy on some.

 

[LC627]

You sound like you don't understand grace. Grace is the POWER to walk as Jesus walked apart from sin.

BUT God will have mercy on whom He wills.

Look at the sheep goats judgment (GWT)...those people don't know Jesus at all. Yet God will have mercy on some.

If there is one thing you and I agree on it's that we are on totally different theological fields.
Grace is God's unmerited favor.
Believers live their lives in the power of the Holy Spirit and walk by faith not sight.
People are not automatically forgiven by God at the judgment if they never believed in Christ here on earth.

 

[Episkopos]

If there is one thing you and I agree on it's that we are on totally different theological fields.
Grace is God's unmerited favor.

That is an indoctrinating statement. God is not arbitrary since he has no respect of person's. If you do what is right...you are approved of God. THAT is the way it is...backed up by the word.

Believers live their lives in the power of the Holy Spirit and walk by faith not sight.
People are not automatically forgiven by God at the judgment if they never believed in Christ here on earth.

They will be saved if they have obeyed or done good works as per the sheep/goats judgment.

All mankind will be judged by their works. You will deny this of course.

NO ONE is judged by grace. Grace helps us to get into the higher category of holiness and that kind of works. The works of God.

 

[Nancy]

You guys state that God will choose certain people but yet they're maintaining free will...What if John said no? Could he have?

Gods "choosing" certain people, the bible heroes, so to speak, had nothing to do with the choosing of salvation. God only chooses certain people to the purpose of His plan, IMHO, those whom He knows are faithful to Him.

 

[Mjh29]

"Aren't you, in essence, complaining about God having picked you? Is it so important that you had to have picked God? Do we care?"
The only thing about your post that I will take issue with is that, I DO care because, if you think about the implications involved here, how can you not care about the un-saved. Especially your family and friends-loved ones. It kinda reminds me of "I got mine, so who cares". Please do not take this as an attack, this is my largest issue with that doctrine. We cannot pray someone into salvation, but we can pray for God to open their spiritual eyes. ♥

This is a matter of trusting God. Do we trust that, if God indeed chooses [which i believe that he does and has every right to], do we trust Him to save all those whom He wishes to save? Time and space itself are the creations of God, do we trust Him enough to believe He will in the end do what brings Him ultimate glory? God is perfectly just in choosing some and not others on the grounds of perfection and creation.

a second point would simply be that God is all powerful. Do we agree? Part of being God is being all powerful... that power includes the power to change hearts and the power to choose whom will be saved. There is no partial all-powerfulness... by way of definition that is impossible. So which do we believe? Is God all powerful, or does man have some power himself in His salvtion? I believe the scriptures are pretty clear which, but the question is do we believe them?

 

[Enoch111]

God is perfectly just in choosing some and not others on the grounds of perfection and creation.

If that has any basis at all in reality and in Scripture. Why don't you produce the Scriptures which say that God DOES NOT WANT everyone to be saved?

 

[LC627]

Gods "choosing" certain people, the bible heroes, so to speak, had nothing to do with the choosing of salvation. God only chooses certain people to the purpose of His plan, IMHO, those whom He knows are faithful to Him.

God does have a purpose / plan, amen. Could John the Baptist say no to God if it was God's purpose/plan for him to prepare the way for Jesus? Also, where in scripture does it state that our faith/faithfulness is reason for God's election?

 

[Mjh29]

If that has any basis at all in reality and in Scripture. Why don't you produce the Scriptures which say that God DOES NOT WANT everyone to be saved?

If He wanted something to happen it would happen. He spoke the universe into exsistence. All power has been given to christ in heaven and on earth... If he wanted something done, It would be. So the better question is if God wants all to be saved, what is stopping all from being saved? [and please note that I did indeed reference scripture in this answer]

 

[Enoch111]

[and please note that I did indeed reference scripture in this answer]

I do not see any Scripture references in that post. The issue is not whether God wants something to happen. The issue is obedience to the Gospel. All will not obey the Gospel.

ROMANS 10
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[Nancy]

God does have a purpose / plan, amen. Could John the Baptist say no to God if it was God's purpose/plan for him to prepare the way for Jesus? Also, where in scripture does it state that our faith/faithfulness is reason for God's election?

Sure JTB could have refused but...God knew he wouldn't! Just like God knew Job would trust Him.
you said "Also, where in scripture does it state that our faith/faithfulness is reason for God's election?" We were not speaking about salvation here! I was stating that God chooses the faithful to fulfill His purposes.

 

[Episkopos]

I do not see any Scripture references in that post. The issue is not whether God wants something to happen. The issue is obedience to the Gospel. All will not obey the Gospel.

ROMANS 10
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

And this condition is on Christians who have believed in the gospel....not on the whole world.

 

[Mjh29]

Why don't you produce the Scriptures which say that God DOES NOT WANT everyone to be saved?

The issue is not whether God wants something to happen

firstly, I'd like to point out the blatant contradiction here. Secondly, The scripture references were to the creation story in Genesis and to God telling Jesus He has all power and authority, which shows if He wanted something done, it would happen.

thirdly, notice the context of aforementioned romans passage. He is talking to the choosen people of God. THEY WERE ALREADY HIS CHOOSEN! What God says about His chosen people does not necessarily apply to every single person ever in history. But since you brought up Israel, lets talk about them. Did Israel chose God? Nope. They were chosen BY God. Did they look up into the heavens and say, 'You want us to be your people? .... we'll think about it."
Nope. God commanded; "You are my people, this is how you will live." Period.

Now, here is a verse that can actually apply to every man:

Romans 1:18 -- The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness

 

[Naomi25]

So essentially you believe every person's choice is manipulated? And we should just be okay with that? (I bolded the specific part that gives me that impression).

Does anyone, in life, ever, make a choice in a vacuum? Do we not, in normal, unsupernatural ways find that we are swayed by circumstance, people, bias, past experiences?
How is it different, or wrong, for God to inject into our lives his own way for us to see things when it comes for us to choose? How is it bad for us to be able to look at our choice through the lens of Christ's sacrifice? Should we feel manipulated and angry that God sent his Son to save and woo us?
Speaking for myself, I only feel gratitude, love and a staggering need to drop to my knees in the face of it. Do I feel manipulated or forced into that posture? No. I feel like God opened my eyes to the truth of that, the truth of what and who he is and what he has done, as opposed to what my situation was before that, and I have come very naturally to where I am now.

I quoted KJV, my default.
And I read it about how God wants ALL men to come to Him, not just some.

True, he does, but we know that not all do. But we cannot take his desire here as an "active" will on his behalf. We know that "God has no please in the death of the wicked" (Ez 33:11), yet we see all throughout the OT and even in the NT at times, especially in Revelation, that God does, indeed, call an account to those who live wickedly. But as a loving and good God, he takes no delight in it. And as his children, I suspect we share in that ache. I know I do. i have twin longings; for justice to be done, to see the wicked, horrid people who do such evil to others finally pay...but my heart also cries out at the severity of the punishment. If only they knew! And as a sinful person, this is only a shadow of what my holy, perfect God feels. To uphold his justice, and yet cry out "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem!".

 

[Enoch111]

Did Israel chose God? Nope. They were chosen BY God.

The whole point of quoting that passage was to show you that even though the nation of Israel was chosen by God, they DID NOT obey the Gospel (by and large). Which means that although God desired the salvation of all Israelites, only a few were saved.

Which means that in the end every sinner must either obey or disobey the Gospel. But you missed this point.

 

[Nancy]

The whole point of quoting that passage was to show you that even though the nation of Israel was chosen by God, they DID NOT obey the Gospel (by and large). Which means that although God desired the salvation of all Israelites, only a few were saved.

Which means that in the end every sinner must either obey or disobey the Gospel. But you missed this point.

The whole point is so simple, it becomes complicated to some. Yes, no middle ground. We will obey Him or not.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Does anyone, in life, ever, make a choice in a vacuum? Do we not, in normal, unsupernatural ways find that we are swayed by circumstance, people, bias, past experiences?
How is it different, or wrong, for God to inject into our lives his own way for us to see things when it comes for us to choose? How is it bad for us to be able to look at our choice through the lens of Christ's sacrifice? Should we feel manipulated and angry that God sent his Son to save and woo us?
Speaking for myself, I only feel gratitude, love and a staggering need to drop to my knees in the face of it. Do I feel manipulated or forced into that posture? No. I feel like God opened my eyes to the truth of that, the truth of what and who he is and what he has done, as opposed to what my situation was before that, and I have come very naturally to where I am now.

True, he does, but we know that not all do. But we cannot take his desire here as an "active" will on his behalf. We know that "God has no please in the death of the wicked" (Ez 33:11), yet we see all throughout the OT and even in the NT at times, especially in Revelation, that God does, indeed, call an account to those who live wickedly. But as a loving and good God, he takes no delight in it. And as his children, I suspect we share in that ache. I know I do. i have twin longings; for justice to be done, to see the wicked, horrid people who do such evil to others finally pay...but my heart also cries out at the severity of the punishment. If only they knew! And as a sinful person, this is only a shadow of what my holy, perfect God feels. To uphold his justice, and yet cry out "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem!".

Following your logic here: man has no responsibility for their actions, everything is the result of God's manipulation?

 

[Naomi25]

Following your logic here: man has no responsibility for their actions, everything is the result of God's manipulation?

No, I'm saying that there is a duality to it. God, being who he is, is capable of directing and upholding his purposes, while people still have...volition.
When we're discussing something that involves God...a being of infinite power who exists outside of time and functions in a way that we will never really understand, it makes it difficult to pin terminologies or actual explanations on how these things work. Does God 'elect' people and then bend them to his will, and that's why they end up saved? Or does he know in advance that they will accept him and that's why he chooses him? But what if they only accepted because he elected them, and if he hadn't, they wouldn't have, therefore in the future they wouldn't be saved, and he couldn't have "known" that? It's a circle that we can't really win...although plenty of time paradox movies have been made exploring the causal implications!!
But, consider this: when I said before that I couldn't conceive of anyone rejecting him whom he had called, and you wanted to know if those people had the right to say "no"...I'm not sure we fleshed that out enough, especially in regards to whether or not people would reject him and therefore change the outcome of 'election'. We have to fully look at what happens when God opens the eyes of a sinful person.
What if you were offered billions of dollars, would you say no? What if it came with a title, a crown? What if it came with a direct line to the most powerful person on the planet? What if the option was taking all that or death? What if you were suddenly made fully and heart breakingly aware that you deserved death? What if you realized that you were being offered all that, and an escape from death because the one offering it had died in your place? Would you say no?
I know, theologically, or even to just to spite a conversational debate, some people would say "I would say no!" But face to face with pretty much any one of those scenarios, let alone all of them together, and I doubt many would say no.
Are there those would still would...could? Actually...I think so. In scripture, where it says that the only unforgivable sin is to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit"...Here is what one author said about it: "it is a definite act showing a state of sin, and that state a willful, determined opposition to the present power of the Holy Spirit; and this as shown by its fruit, blasphemy"
I think one must have some real understanding of God and Christ to willfully and determinedly oppose the work of the Spirit.

Of course...this IS just my understanding of all this. I could be wrong, I am not a scholar or well read by any means!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

No, I'm saying that there is a duality to it. God, being who he is, is capable of directing and upholding his purposes, while people still have...volition.
When we're discussing something that involves God...a being of infinite power who exists outside of time and functions in a way that we will never really understand, it makes it difficult to pin terminologies or actual explanations on how these things work. Does God 'elect' people and then bend them to his will, and that's why they end up saved? Or does he know in advance that they will accept him and that's why he chooses him? But what if they only accepted because he elected them, and if he hadn't, they wouldn't have, therefore in the future they wouldn't be saved, and he couldn't have "known" that? It's a circle that we can't really win...although plenty of time paradox movies have been made exploring the causal implications!!
But, consider this: when I said before that I couldn't conceive of anyone rejecting him whom he had called, and you wanted to know if those people had the right to say "no"...I'm not sure we fleshed that out enough, especially in regards to whether or not people would reject him and therefore change the outcome of 'election'. We have to fully look at what happens when God opens the eyes of a sinful person.
What if you were offered billions of dollars, would you say no? What if it came with a title, a crown? What if it came with a direct line to the most powerful person on the planet? What if the option was taking all that or death? What if you were suddenly made fully and heart breakingly aware that you deserved death? What if you realized that you were being offered all that, and an escape from death because the one offering it had died in your place? Would you say no?
I know, theologically, or even to just to spite a conversational debate, some people would say "I would say no!" But face to face with pretty much any one of those scenarios, let alone all of them together, and I doubt many would say no.
Are there those would still would...could? Actually...I think so. In scripture, where it says that the only unforgivable sin is to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit"...Here is what one author said about it: "it is a definite act showing a state of sin, and that state a willful, determined opposition to the present power of the Holy Spirit; and this as shown by its fruit, blasphemy"
I think one must have some real understanding of God and Christ to willfully and determinedly oppose the work of the Spirit.

Of course...this IS just my understanding of all this. I could be wrong, I am not a scholar or well read by any means!

Honestly...this post kind of feels running around in circles. (I intend no offense by that, and apologize if it causes such offense)
I asked a simple " Does a person have the ability to say 'no thank you'?"
The answer was (to my understanding- possibly flawed) essentially that God manipulatively riggs everything and hence negates human responsibility. So I asked that to clarify.
This response, again it seems a long run-around-y response that doesn't really directly answer my very simple questions.

 

[LC627]

Honestly...this post kind of feels running around in circles. (I intend no offense by that, and apologize if it causes such offense)
I asked a simple " Does a person have the ability to say 'no thank you'?"
The answer was (to my understanding- possibly flawed) essentially that God manipulatively riggs everything and hence negates human responsibility. So I asked that to clarify.
This response, again it seems a long run-around-y response that doesn't really directly answer my very simple questions.

Predestine = to determine / ordain.
We've discussed this Jane, with the fallen nature of man, the will is enslaved thus not "free". Man has a free agency, you can make choices and think on your own but man only does what is in his nature and naturally that is to rebel against God and is blind to sin.

Irresistible grace does not mean forced, it means it is too attractive to pass up. Once convicted by the Holy Spirit the person sees their sins and feels convicted. This is not forced. The person joyfully repents. I explained this to you earlier in the thread. (Post #142) And ironically you want others to answer your questions but failed to answer mine when we were discussing this topic ealier